atariksi Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 ...can. but nobody cares. cartridges were not a format being taken seriously for the c64. the best games are multiload and cant make it into carts without serious hacking, so why bother. those were made compatible with IDE64 already if you need instant loading times. Cheater. You previously compared IDE64 to my joystick interface. If that's a separate piece of hardware (and not a C64 port only interface) then you are soar loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 ...can. but nobody cares. cartridges were not a format being taken seriously for the c64. the best games are multiload and cant make it into carts without serious hacking, so why bother. those were made compatible with IDE64 already if you need instant loading times. Cheater. You previously compared IDE64 to my joystick interface. If that's a separate piece of hardware (and not a C64 port only interface) then you are soar loser. can you cite where do I compare IDE64 to your joystick interface? and I am a loser because IDE64 is a separate HW ?! calm down a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnacle boy Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Great. Seems you guys have triggered a wormhole in the forum's space-time continuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 The Atari calculates in realtime a tunnel plus a 16 shades (gouraud shading) depth multi polygonic object, and you name it "kind of Plasma"... neither the VIC 20 nor the C64 can even go any near to this. are you sure? here you can see bigger gouraud shaded objects, with a more complex tunnel.... (its in the same resolution as the a8 one, the video is shitty doesnt shows that) Nonono.... Youtube is your friend, not your foe Look at the picture from your "Atari beating demo" The only common thing is the resolution of 128x192. The picture has 4 colours, not 16. The background reuses chars for saving CPU time. The "Big polygone based rotating object" is nothing but a flat bitmap/charmap filling object, and the colors are enhanced with transitions to have at least the view of 8 colours. Nontheless, by all the "not doing any serious 3D", it is rather slow. The real tricky thing is how they managed to have the moving object not character mode look alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hey Commodore users (since there's so many of you in this thread). Anybody have any experience with this: http://cgi.ebay.com/C64TPC-Connect-Commodo...1QQcmdZViewItem It appears to be a reasonable facsimile of Atari's SIO2PC. It is for sale in Turkey, which makes me a bit nervous. It's "C64TPC" and it seems reasonably priced. It claims to be incompatible with Fast-load cartridges. It also claims to be 37% faster than 1541 drive. It sucks that it requires a power supply. It sucks even worse that one's not included. It sucks that it's RS232 and not USB. It claims to be compatible with USB-->RS232 adapters. If that's all it takes - and I don't need a whole desk (or box) full of Commodore stuff, maybe I'll acquire one of your off-brand computers when I run across one. Then I'll see what the fuss is about. I wonder if all the Ataris here will beat it up when I'm at work. Oh yeah, the computers don't fight - only the users. Why you would need this kind of device? It exists at least 4 SD card reader for C64 , you can put thousands of disk image on one SD card, and access it directly from the C64 as if it is real disk. the more advanced i think is the 1541 III: http://jderogee.tripod.com/project1541.htm you have also that aone : http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmc64.htm and the 2 i have : the SD2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/sd2iec-boar2.html and MMC2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-comm...tion-devic.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 So which of those are 'long after the death of the system'? Nebulus? Blinky's Scary School? I guess the atari was quite dead in 1990, but the c64 was still battling on. Or were some of those other titles not actually released at the time? Also, when you say "doesn't help your case", what exactly is my 'case'? I suggest you try to view my comment in the context of the quote I was replying to. The A8 was declared dead in 1986 by Atari itself. After eastern europe opened the gates, Atari decided to start manufacturing the A8 again to take part on that market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Nonono.... Youtube is your friend, not your foe Look at the picture from your "Atari beating demo" The only common thing is the resolution of 128x192. The picture has 4 colours, not 16. The background reuses chars for saving CPU time. The "Big polygone based rotating object" is nothing but a flat bitmap/charmap filling object, and the colors are enhanced with transitions to have at least the view of 8 colours. Nontheless, by all the "not doing any serious 3D", it is rather slow. The real tricky thing is how they managed to have the moving object not character mode look alike. - the picture uses 16 dithered shades of 4 colors - background doesnt reuses anything, its a tunel on its own, the tunel is bended, depth shaded, etc, impossible to reuse chars. you can all see that before the objects enters ( )- the rotating 3d object is gouraud (just like the atari one) & not flat shaded, visible even on the picture you have posted, I am hugely amazed you can come here with a straight face and deny such an obvious fact. Nonetheless it displays a bended curved depth shaded tunel, with fullscreen gouraud shaded objects, something you said the c64 cant even come close to. Time to redefine "cant even come close to" to win this argument. As I know you, you will start with that straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hey Commodore users (since there's so many of you in this thread). Anybody have any experience with this: http://cgi.ebay.com/C64TPC-Connect-Commodo...1QQcmdZViewItem It appears to be a reasonable facsimile of Atari's SIO2PC. It is for sale in Turkey, which makes me a bit nervous. It's "C64TPC" and it seems reasonably priced. It claims to be incompatible with Fast-load cartridges. It also claims to be 37% faster than 1541 drive. It sucks that it requires a power supply. It sucks even worse that one's not included. It sucks that it's RS232 and not USB. It claims to be compatible with USB-->RS232 adapters. If that's all it takes - and I don't need a whole desk (or box) full of Commodore stuff, maybe I'll acquire one of your off-brand computers when I run across one. Then I'll see what the fuss is about. I wonder if all the Ataris here will beat it up when I'm at work. Oh yeah, the computers don't fight - only the users. Why you would need this kind of device? It exists at least 4 SD card reader for C64 , you can put thousands of disk image on one SD card, and access it directly from the C64 as if it is real disk. the more advanced i think is the 1541 III: http://jderogee.tripod.com/project1541.htm you have also that aone : http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmc64.htm and the 2 i have : the SD2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/sd2iec-boar2.html and MMC2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-comm...tion-devic.html Why don't you write this displaced content in Lemon64 forums, where it belongs to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 So which of those are 'long after the death of the system'? Nebulus? Blinky's Scary School? I guess the atari was quite dead in 1990, but the c64 was still battling on. Or were some of those other titles not actually released at the time? Also, when you say "doesn't help your case", what exactly is my 'case'? I suggest you try to view my comment in the context of the quote I was replying to. The A8 was declared dead in 1986 by Atari itself. After eastern europe opened the gates, Atari decided to start manufacturing the A8 again to take part on that market. yeah A8 got the c64 again there: died earliear than the c64 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maddestman Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 William Shatner does not count as a 3rd party peripheral. Indeed, he's not a 3rd party peripheral, he's just a tool, hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 @atariski: At 4:36 there are 1024 one scanline high "sprites" on C64. Other than that this demo is pretty much outdated (from 1998). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hey Commodore users (since there's so many of you in this thread). Anybody have any experience with this: http://cgi.ebay.com/C64TPC-Connect-Commodo...1QQcmdZViewItem It appears to be a reasonable facsimile of Atari's SIO2PC. It is for sale in Turkey, which makes me a bit nervous. It's "C64TPC" and it seems reasonably priced. It claims to be incompatible with Fast-load cartridges. It also claims to be 37% faster than 1541 drive. It sucks that it requires a power supply. It sucks even worse that one's not included. It sucks that it's RS232 and not USB. It claims to be compatible with USB-->RS232 adapters. If that's all it takes - and I don't need a whole desk (or box) full of Commodore stuff, maybe I'll acquire one of your off-brand computers when I run across one. Then I'll see what the fuss is about. I wonder if all the Ataris here will beat it up when I'm at work. Oh yeah, the computers don't fight - only the users. Why you would need this kind of device? It exists at least 4 SD card reader for C64 , you can put thousands of disk image on one SD card, and access it directly from the C64 as if it is real disk. the more advanced i think is the 1541 III: http://jderogee.tripod.com/project1541.htm you have also that aone : http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmc64.htm and the 2 i have : the SD2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/sd2iec-boar2.html and MMC2IEC http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-comm...tion-devic.html Why don't you write this displaced content in Lemon64 forums, where it belongs to? Displaced? why? I just answered to wood_jl. What is the problem? Does this type of device exists for Atari 800 xl? I have only a SIO2PC (a old one not USB) and if i can find a device for XL that can use a SD Card as disk drive without the need of additionnal software on the machine. I will buy one for sure. The SIO2PC is good but having to have my old laptop connected to my Atari each time i want play a game is painfull for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookt Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Does this type of device exists for Atari 800 xl? I have only a SIO2PC (a old one not USB) and if i can find a device for XL that can use a SD Card as disk drive without the need of additionnal software on the machine. I will buy one for sure. The SIO2PC is good but having to have my old laptop connected to my Atari each time i want play a game is painfull for me. Try SIO2SD Often available on eBay UK assembled or IIRC from AA member Lotharek Fully built and cased. Theres a thread here where Lotharek talks about some of his pre-built upgrades and kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) where did you ever get this notion that the A8 died in 1986 emkay....probably in some parts of europe yes, not in the UK and not in the states thats for sure...according for Atari`s own records they pulled out of the 8 bit market (computers and consoles) in Jan. 1992, and hardware manufacturing about 18/24 months later After all, the UK A8 games developing market didn`t realy take off till after atari released the XE (even though the A8 had crap games software supprt from the big boys...i.e Ocean, USG, Gremlin, Hewson, Activision UK etc) Edited April 15, 2009 by carmel_andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Great. Seems you guys have triggered a wormhole in the forum's space-time continuum. thats a really good one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 you dont want such stuff for the c64. it wont run anything with a custom loader. I dont know if you already know this so I just exlain anyway: all c64 fastloaders, and 99% of games and ALL demos load using custom loaders. this means uploading code to the 1541 drive's ram. the 1541 has to be emulated so such loaders will wirk. c64 to pc solutions only emulate the default protocol, and not the full 1541 -> c64tpc and similar doesnt runs shit except onefilers. if you want a system which runs almost anything get an 1541 ultimate: http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/index.php Since it is so difficult to properly emulate the 1541 (that 1541 Ultimate has a giant FPGA!) why not connect to the PC by hacking the 1541? I bet an interface that connects in place of the drive mechanism would be possible and the PC would then simulate the data passing under the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 @atariski: At 4:36 there are 1024 one scanline high "sprites" on C64. Other than that this demo is pretty much outdated (from 1998). the tunnel is not bad at all... but I personally would had left out the voxel landscape which is so bad that it remind me on the VIC-20 one... why is it not double buffered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Does this type of device exists for Atari 800 xl? I have only a SIO2PC (a old one not USB) and if i can find a device for XL that can use a SD Card as disk drive without the need of additionnal software on the machine. I will buy one for sure. The SIO2PC is good but having to have my old laptop connected to my Atari each time i want play a game is painfull for me. Try SIO2SD Often available on eBay UK assembled or IIRC from AA member Lotharek Fully built and cased. Theres a thread here where Lotharek talks about some of his pre-built upgrades and kits. thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Since it is so difficult to properly emulate the 1541 (that 1541 Ultimate has a giant FPGA!) why not connect to the PC by hacking the 1541? It has to be cycle accurate emulation which rules all multitasking OS'es for PC out and even under DOS it doesn't work too well. There is one solution for DOS: 64HDD. Also keep in mind that LPT ports have no future. Many PCs already don't have one, and those who have one often have an incompatible LPT chipset which is barely enough to connect a printer but doesn't allow for those hacking cables anymore. Concerning the giant FPGA: It could be smaller if 1541U was dedicated to drive emulation only, but it also contains emulation for several cartridges, RAM expansion unit + it's DMA controller, ethernet etc etc. I bet an interface that connects in place of the drive mechanism would be possible and the PC would then simulate the data passing under the head. Possible, but why PC and why at all when you can replace the entire drive with an FPGA and not only the drive mech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 @atariski: At 4:36 there are 1024 one scanline high "sprites" on C64. the tunnel is not bad at all... but I personally would had left out the voxel landscape which is so bad that it remind me on the VIC-20 one... I was talking about the sphere at 4:36. The tunnel is just a simple plotter. why is it not double buffered? Because the coder didn't care for double buffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) You C64 guys bore me by wasting my time with your self lying... - the picture uses 16 dithered shades of 4 colors As every time. What is not allowed for The A8, the C64 coders use to do it and everything is allright. You blame the games on the A8 only having 4 colours (which isn't really true also) , but dithered 4 colours to "16" colours is "Atari equal"... Holy crap... Open your eyes and look at the difference man! The Atari's objects use all 16 shades for having a clean lightsource , embossing and fadings... - background doesnt reuses anything, its a tunel on its own, the tunel is bended, depth shaded, etc, impossible to reuse chars. you can all see that before the objects enters ( ) You see at the first movement the depending changing of screen ranges. Possibly they get changed a bit, but most of the whole graphics content has this "similar popping" . - the rotating 3d object is gouraud (just like the atari one) & not flat shaded, visible even on the picture you have posted, I am hugely amazed you can come here with a straight face and deny such an obvious fact. It is a "flat object. It has neither curved faces nor a real light source. Well it looks like gouraud. That is right. Nonetheless it displays a bended curved depth shaded tunel, with fullscreen gouraud shaded objects, something you said the c64 cant even come close to. Time to redefine "cant even come close to" to win this argument. As I know you, you will start with that straight away. You know what? If this is "Atari quality" to you. I say that the Atari can have a Turrican that looks like the Amiga version Hm... bad comparision. Better would fit, to say that the Atari can have a Call of Duty 2 version at playable framerates. Edited April 15, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 ...can. but nobody cares. cartridges were not a format being taken seriously for the c64. the best games are multiload and cant make it into carts without serious hacking, so why bother. those were made compatible with IDE64 already if you need instant loading times. Cheater. You previously compared IDE64 to my joystick interface. If that's a separate piece of hardware (and not a C64 port only interface) then you are soar loser. can you cite where do I compare IDE64 to your joystick interface? and I am a loser because IDE64 is a separate HW ?! calm down a little. I am calm. Your very first post on this forum, you stated: "there is a demo which displays a streamed animation from pc at 160x200x16 & digi music, sorry but couldnt find a video for it. its really rare, as it needs special pc-c64 cable. this one's transfer speed is: lda IOport sta mem lda IOport sta mem lda IOport sta mem and so on.." I was comparing joystick interfaces on both machines. So if it's not just a pc-c64 cable but requires a piece of hardware as well, then that was a misleading remark. I can also add a bunch of hardware to the A8 and make it look superior even to a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 @atariski: At 4:36 there are 1024 one scanline high "sprites" on C64. Other than that this demo is pretty much outdated (from 1998). How did you calculate 1024? How many per line is the key point since you need some horizontal replication to go beyond the 2000 sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 you dont want such stuff for the c64. it wont run anything with a custom loader. I dont know if you already know this so I just exlain anyway: all c64 fastloaders, and 99% of games and ALL demos load using custom loaders. this means uploading code to the 1541 drive's ram. the 1541 has to be emulated so such loaders will wirk. c64 to pc solutions only emulate the default protocol, and not the full 1541 -> c64tpc and similar doesnt runs shit except onefilers. if you want a system which runs almost anything get an 1541 ultimate: http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/index.php That is a workable solution. Though the developers are getting a point about the GPL3 wrong. The site states they make the firmware for the device available under the GPL3 and that "the code or parts thereof may not be sold". If that is their intent then the GPL3 is the wrong license. Code under either the GPL2 or 3 can indeed be sold though the customer can freely redistribute under the terms of the license. Paying someone for specific improvements is one reason why the license allows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I bet an interface that connects in place of the drive mechanism would be possible and the PC would then simulate the data passing under the head. Possible, but why PC and why at all when you can replace the entire drive with an FPGA and not only the drive mech. What I was thinking was that perhaps a small USB microcontroller could quickly download the track data and feed it to the 1541 as though it came from a disk. I was just thinking there may be a small, cheap, and compatible solution if you don't try to duplicate the 1541's CPU but rather emulate the mechanism. Perhaps such an upgrade wouldn't even need to permanently disable the existing mechanism, but rather could switch it in and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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