Batari BASIC and naysaying

[s0c7]

Some further suggestions: ......

 

Many thanks.... especially for the fire button code. I'm open to any and all suggestions for improvement (especially from people who are familiar with the limitations of the environment).

 

The AA hack community (where I got my start) was always a fun, friendly place to hang out. I have a feeling the bB group will be as well. It is kind of cool, the few things that have been displayed in a finished or wip form are all pretty different and unique. I think the nay-sayers were expecting it to be a Mythicon type deal, minor variations on a theme.

[retrocon]

Some further suggestions: ......

It is kind of cool, the few things that have been displayed in a finished or wip form are all pretty different and unique. I think the nay-sayers were expecting it to be a Mythicon type deal, minor variations on a theme.

896076[/snapback]

 

Nay-sayers refer to bB as the "Firefly Construction Set".

Edited July 22, 2005 by retrocon

[kisrael]

It is kind of cool, the few things that have been displayed in a finished or wip form are all pretty different and unique.  I think the nay-sayers were expecting it to be a Mythicon type deal, minor variations on a theme.

Nay-sayers refer to bB as the "Firefly Construction Set".

Hah hah, really? I actually had the same kind of thought, just not put so well.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but if asked to identify a single technical reason why it's NOT a MythiconFest, I'd say the decision to sacrifice RAM to make a memory mapped playfield. lets see, 128 bytes in all, 4 * 11 rows is it? Like a little less than 1/3 of memory for the screen, a decent trade off.

 

The amazing thing about bB is it's both EASIER than most non-trivial hacks, and more creative at the same time.

 

At some point we should start a permanent gallery, when people think something is A. interesting and B. largely finished. We could start a thread, and then I'd take things from it and put it on the webpage.

[Jess Ragan]

Batari BASIC has met with a lot of resistance in the classic game developing community. I think the more dedicated programmers are insulted and perhaps even threatened by the thought of just anyone designing 2600 games. In the past, 2600 game development was an exclusive club, reserved only for those with the skill to program in assembly language and the endless hours necessary to design, compile, and test their projects.

 

Batari BASIC has changed all that, which is great for most of us but has prompted some very elitist attitudes from others. You should see the thread over at Slashdot... they're making snide comments like "Oh, why couldn't it have been a GOOD programming language, instead of BASIC?" and "Now EVERYONE can make a 2600 game! It's just not special anymore", and on and on and on. This not only makes me realize why I don't visit Slashdot much, but leaves me imagining the average /. reader to be an obese man with his hair in a ponytail and his nose in a She-Hulk comic book. If you've ever watched The Simpsons you know what I'm talking about.

 

They may hate it, but I for one applaud Batari's work with Batari BASIC. It's a marvelous piece of software that brings power to the people, allowing everyone with a love for the 2600 to express themselves with their own games for the system. Isn't that what the Internet is all about... the chance for the average person to express themselves, and be heard by everyone?

 

JR

[vdub_bobby]

Batari BASIC has met with a lot of resistance in the classic game developing community.  I think the more dedicated programmers are insulted and perhaps even threatened by the thought of just anyone designing 2600 games.  In the past, 2600 game development was an exclusive club, reserved only for those with the skill to program in assembly language and the endless hours necessary to design, compile, and test their projects. 

 

Batari BASIC has changed all that, which is great for most of us but has prompted some very elitist attitudes from others.  You should see the thread over at Slashdot... they're making snide comments like "Oh, why couldn't it have been a GOOD programming language, instead of BASIC?" and "Now EVERYONE can make a 2600 game!  It's just not special anymore",

The [stella] list has NOT been elitest, snobby, or put up resistance. A few folks on the list have mentioned that with a 2600 BASIC the 2600 homebrew scene may end up looking similar to the A8 homebrew scene in the 1980s (or now, for that matter) - where a few wrote games in assembly that were professional quality and a great many more wrote a lot of games in BASIC that were generally slower and simpler; the best of which were unique and fun.

 

If that's where we end up I think that will be a good thing.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Batari BASIC has met with a lot of resistance in the classic game developing community.

Where?

[vdub_bobby]

Batari BASIC has met with a lot of resistance in the classic game developing community.

Where?

896522[/snapback]

Apparently he is referring to the Slashdot thread; but my impression of that (short) thread isn't nearly as negative as Jess'. There are some smart-ass remarks, but the only real substantial negativity came from one person who was disparaging of developing at all for such an old platform.

 

But in any case, I would hardly say that that slashdot thread represents the views of the "classic game developing community."

 

The reaction on [stella] has been cautiously positive, I think, and probably 75% of the active 2600 game developing community subscribes to that list.

 

EDIT: we should probably move this discussion to another thread.

Edited July 22, 2005 by vdub_bobby

[kisrael]

EDIT: we should probably move this discussion to another thread.

I was thinking the same thing, but wanted to hear someone else suggest it before acting.

 

I agree I haven't seen this "lot of resistance" Jess refers to. The Slashdot board had one "It's too easy now!" with a reference to the O'Reilly article, a few "Ugh, BASIC" and one "Wow, how irrelevant is THAT?" about the Atari as a platform.

 

Around here, I haven't seen much.The "point and click atari programming" Thread did have a fair amount skepticism *before* bB came out, some of which has been retracted I think, and some of which I'd say the jury is still out on.

 

As a guy who "paid my dues" and made a homebrew in ASM, as well as a strong support of Batari BASIC (organizing this forum as well as a webpage) I'd like to quote from my blog:

I have some slightly mixed feelings about Batari BASIC. On the one hand, it's great, it probably would have taken at *least* a week for me to program it in assembly language, probably longer to get my chops back, and maybe I never would have gotten up the energy for it. And this BASIC variant is opening up programming to a bunch of Atari fans. The game environment is a bit limited (right now it's two players, two missile graphics, and a score, though he's made up a big pixel "screen memory" that lets you draw on the screen like the old 8-bit computers of the 80s which opens the field to some cool game play ideas) but already boundaries are being stretched.

 

I know I could make a semi-passable version of JoustPong in this, even better with the features expected in future releases. The games made in Batari BASIC probably won't be as polished as their "true homebrew" brothers, but still, the will be original games that run on real hardware. (Actually people are a little worried about a flood of mediocre homebrews.)

 

It's funny of think of my alternate-reality self, living in a world where this came out in 2002 or so. (The language compiler itself ain't rocket science, it some ways it's just a big macro that takes simple BASIC statements and writes out the corresponding assembly.) I definitely would have written JoustPong in it, and it would have taken a lot less effort. And I'd probably even call myself an "Atari coder", even though I would have learned so much less and worked so much harder than I have here.

 

The previous barrier to learning how to code an Atari game really made it kind of elite thing, (even though I tried to lower it a bit with my 2600 101 tutorial) and that's shifted somewhat. It seems to be splitting hairs to say "I programmed a game for the 2600 in Assembly Language" vs "I programmed a game for the 2600" even though the former is a big achievement in a way the latter isn't. You used to have to gain this expertise in archaic things to make a game that could run on the real hardware...now the particulars of that pursuit seem a bit quaint and oddball, since there's a much better effort/reward ratio to just doing it in "BASIC".

 

And that's how I feel about that. All in all, I think we're going to have some fun with this language, and we'll see how it goes from there.

[retrocon]

While I agree with your blog for the most part, I'm tending to lean to the side that this may be bad for the 2600 homebrew community in the long run.

 

If you want to program in basic you can do so easily with any system from A400/c66/vic20 on up. But this first generation, this 2600, is unique somehow.

 

I won't say it's the whole attraction, but a large part of developing games on it I think is the challenge, sort of like working on a particularly nasty crossword puzzle. If you're not counting cycles and bytes (or bits), what is the point? Might as well use Flash right?

 

But then again the games I have seen, Ooze, Solar Plexus, and F-4, have actually been pretty fun, decent games which probably would not have existed otherwise. And why shouldn't they exist?

 

But then comes the question is should they become carts? Somehow I don't think it's fair if they're made into carts and sold alongside the asm games that took 20x longer to create. Maybe they could be released with a label stating that they are part of the "Batari Basic Collection" or at least include acknowledgement that fact somehow and also perhaps sold at a reduced price compared to the regular asm games.

 

Or am I just crazy?

[+batari]

But then comes the question is should they become carts? Somehow I don't think it's fair if they're made into carts and sold alongside the asm games that took 20x longer to create. Maybe they could be released with a label stating that they are part of the "Batari Basic Collection" or at least include acknowledgement that fact somehow and also perhaps sold at a reduced price compared to the regular asm games.

896624[/snapback]

I don't think it's ever going to be a mystery which games were created with asm and which with bB. Also, I think it's likely that games made in pure asm will sell better. No bB game is going to sell as well as Thrust, for instance. What it all comes down to is that nobody writes 2600 games for profit anyway, or if someone has profit in mind, they will have a rude awakening when they try to market their games.

 

I believe that those who write in asm are still going to be "1337" no matter how many bB games come out. In any case you'd be lucky make $1 an hour, no matter what method you choose. So does it really matter?

[supercat]

But then comes the question is should they become carts? Somehow I don't think it's fair if they're made into carts and sold alongside the asm games that took 20x longer to create. Maybe they could be released with a label stating that they are part of the "Batari Basic Collection" or at least include acknowledgement that fact somehow and also perhaps sold at a reduced price compared to the regular asm games.

896624[/snapback]

 

Well, I think we need to avoid cluttering up the store with junk in a repeat of 1984. What's important I think, though, is not to decide that bB games--no matter how good they may be--shouldn't go in carts while asm games--no matter how bad--should, but instead to look at games on their individual merits.

 

Perhaps it would be good to make a multicart of different people's efforts. A 32K cart with a menu and seven 4K games won't cost much more than a single 4K cart, but will show off seven times as many games. Further, nothing terribly fancy is required to allow 4K games to be 'multiplexed' on a 32K cart if programmers are told not to put anything except the reset vector above $1FF3. The person combining all the carts simply has to copy the reset vector of each bank (except the seventh) to $1FFE, point the reset vector to $1FFB, and put a $4C there. would be contain the menu, and would select a game by copying a small piece of code into ZP RAM and executing it. To run the game selected by the X register, simply

    CMP $1FF4,X
   JMP ($1FFE)

Piece of cake, with no other coordination among the different programs necessary (though if they wanted to exit to the menu, they could by doing a JMP $1FFB).

[+batari]

What's important I think, though, is not to decide that bB games--no matter how good they may be--shouldn't go in carts while asm games--no matter how bad--should, but instead to look at games on their individual merits.

Agreed... A technically superior game isn't necessarily more fun. For instance, something similar to Yars' Revenge could be done in bB, and this was a great game. Something like Pigs in Space cannot, and while technically superior to many other games, it was abysmally bad.

Perhaps it would be good to make a multicart of different people's efforts.  A 32K cart with a menu and seven 4K games won't cost much more than a single 4K cart, but will show off seven times as many games.  Further, nothing terribly fancy is required to allow 4K games to be 'multiplexed' on a 32K cart if programmers are told not to put anything except the reset vector above $1FF3.  The person combining all the carts simply has to copy the reset vector of each bank (except the seventh) to $1FFE, point the reset vector to $1FFB, and put a $4C there.  would be contain the menu, and would select a game by copying a small piece of code into ZP RAM and executing it.  To run the game selected by the X register, simply

    CMP $1FF4,X
   JMP ($1FFE)

Piece of cake, with no other coordination among the different programs necessary (though if they wanted to exit to the menu, they could by doing a JMP $1FFB).

896646[/snapback]

A multicart is a great idea, maybe something to go along with this contest idea, but probably it's best to wait until bB matures a little. Maybe I should quit screwing around and do a little coding...

[kisrael]

If you want to program in basic you can do so easily with any system from A400/c66/vic20 on up. But this first generation, this 2600, is unique somehow.

Previously, it occured to me that a big chunk of what made 2600 homebrewing special to me is that it's something I <i>couldn't</i> do as a kid. The only reason I wasn't, you know, getting games published in "Antic" is only because I wasn't that great at programming...but 2600 games came on carts, not temporary media, and cart fabrication was beyond the ken of most kids back in the day. The ability to produce carts now is the fufillment of an old day dream.

I won't say it's the whole attraction, but a large part of developing games on it I think is the challenge, sort of like working on a particularly nasty crossword puzzle. If you're not counting cycles and bytes (or bits), what is the point? Might as well use Flash right?

Based on my experience with the (admittedly not terribly complex) homebrew JoustPong, for many game you only count cycles in the kernal (I wrote a half decent kernal, but ended up using a brilliant one Slocum cooked up for me, allowing Pterry without the flicker) and you have a fair amount of RAM for many games.

 

Honestly, the real trial (and why it might take 20x longer) is just learning 6502 assembly language and a bit about the TIA etc. Someone fluent in 6502 would only be, maybe, two to four times slower than someone coding in Batari BASIC, save for the kernal.

 

I will admit that Batari BASIC might be exerting some pressure on me to move onto some other homebrew waters I've been thinking of...like this idea for a Party Game for Dreamcast I have...

Well, I think we need to avoid cluttering up the store with junk in a repeat of 1984.  What's important I think, though, is not to decide that bB games--no matter how good they may be--shouldn't go in carts while asm games--no matter how bad--should, but instead to look at games on their individual merits.

 

Perhaps it would be good to make a multicart of different people's efforts.  A 32K cart with a menu and seven 4K games won't cost much more than a single 4K cart, but will show off seven times as many games.

That's a pretty cool idea.

 

Interestingly, while lowering the bar for programmers, it doesn't lower and might even raise the bar for what's going to be a worthwhile, publishable game.

[kisrael]

A multicart is a great idea, maybe something to go along with this contest idea, but probably it's best to wait until bB matures a little.  Maybe I should quit screwing around and do a little coding...

896653[/snapback]

Good point...I'm holding off on some things that could benefit from increased math support (fixedpoint and just functions in general) 'til I see what comes down the pike...

[supercat]

Agreed... A technically superior game isn't necessarily more fun.  For instance, something similar to Yars' Revenge could be done in bB, and this was a great game.  Something like Pigs in Space cannot, and while technically superior to many other games, it was abysmally bad.

 

Never tried PIS, but I just tried the three Mythicon titles last night (had to see what this 'Fire Fly' was that people kept dogging on). I do think that some of the people who dog on Mythicon's games probably failed to read the directions, since the games default to 'practice' mode with unlimitted lives and no score. While the addition of a life counter and scoring doesn't exactly make them great games, it does at least give them some sort of point. I'll admit, though, I found myself wondering what the box meant when it said "First in the Fire Fly series".

 

It's interesting, though, to compare Fire Fly and Solar Plexus. Fire Fly has bright colorful objects while Solar Plexus just has single-color objects. But despite being bright and colorful the objects in FF for the most part look terrible. And the gameplay in FF is annoying. SP isn't exactly sophisticated gameplay, but it's playable and amusing despite its simplicity.

[retrocon]

Perhaps it would be good to make a multicart of different people's efforts.

 

Why aren't multicarts that popular right now? The technology is there right?

 

As everyone agrees, no one really makes a cart to get rich. They probably do it mostly for the coolness factor. It's kind of a geek prestige thing, right? With some strong nostalgia mixed in too.

 

I think if you're going to take the trouble to make a 2600 game, you want some credit for it at least. You want a cart for your game alone maybe even with your name on it:

 

http://www.atariage.com/store/popup_image3.php?pID=37

 

It's kinda an ego thing maybe. David Crane got a whole cart for his game. Howard Scott Warshaw did too. Why does my game have to share a cart with 7 other games?

 

I've never created a 2600 cart, but I used to develop games for the genesis and then the playstation and it was definitely a proud moment when I went down to the local ebgames and saw the games I'd worked so hard on up on the shelf.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm offbase with the mindset of the homebrew developer, but that's why I think a compilation might be a problem.

[s0c7]

*sigh* I apologize for starting this, but it has been an interesting read.

 

I do it for the following reasons:

- I'm a geek.

- I do fairly dull system util programming in real life.

- Nostalgia for the old days writing Basic.

- It's fun.

- Programming the 2600 holds more interest than programming say, the c-64, because I've already done that. It was something you couldn't do back in the day.

- Gotta think about the next generation too. "My dad is cooler than your dad".

 

I didn't get into this to sell my game. When F-4 is finished I may ask Albert to make a one-off cart for my son. If AA thinks people would buy a multi-cart of some of our games, I wouldn't have any objections to being part of that.

 

I will point out that no matter what, games don't write themselves. If you are thinking about joining the community, please do... just realize there is work involved. If possible, share your source as well. It may help somebody else get started.

 

If you want to get back at Slashdot, just go into a thread and ask "Which is better, Java or Perl?"

[Jess Ragan]

Sorry if this sounds selfish, but I don't want to offer Solar Plexus as part of a multicart! I mean, where's the fun in that? I want this game to stand out, rather than settling for sharing the spotlight with a half-dozen other titles.

 

JR

[s0c7]

Sorry if this sounds selfish, but I don't want to offer Solar Plexus as part of a multicart!  I mean, where's the fun in that?  I want this game to stand out, rather than settling for sharing the spotlight with a half-dozen other titles.

 

JR

896810[/snapback]

 

Not selfish at all. You wrote a fun game and are justifiably proud of it.

 

Speaking for my case only, I just don't think the demand is there for a solo release of F-4.

[Big Player]

The reaction on [stella] has been cautiously positive, I think, and probably 75% of the active 2600 game developing community subscribes to that list.

896551[/snapback]

 

What? I've been a long time subscriber to the [stella] mailing list and I haven't received a message in months. Did it move? I just thought it died out. There had been a lot of discussion on the list about moving. I guess I wasn't invited to the party.

[Albert]

I didn't get into this to sell my game.  When F-4 is finished I may ask Albert to make a one-off cart for my son.  If AA thinks people would buy a multi-cart of some of our games, I wouldn't have any objections to being part of that.

I haven't really given much thought yet to publishing games developed with Batari's BASIC. But I'm not going to penalize a game just because it was developed using a different language. The most important principles are, "Is the game fun?" and, "Does this game keep me coming back for more?" No reason that a 2600 BASIC game can't answer those challenges. I will say that most homebrew games are pretty well polished, and that's something I'd like to see with the BASIC games as well.

 

If you want to get back at Slashdot, just go into a thread and ask "Which is better, Java or Perl?" 

896724[/snapback]

I mostly discount what people say on Slashdot, on pretty much every subject. I do read a fair number of articles over there (and the comments), but you really need to keep an open mind when doing so. I especially ignore all the negativity, especially when it's against something dear to my heart.

 

..Al

[kisrael]

What?  I've been a long time subscriber to the [stella] mailing list and I haven't received a message in months.  Did it move?  I just thought it died out. There had been a lot of discussion on the list about moving.  I guess I wasn't invited to the party.

896821[/snapback]

 

Ugh. You've been missing some recent talk about how we really, REALLY need to get the hell off of stellalist. It's pretty high on Al's TODO.

[vdub_bobby]

The reaction on [stella] has been cautiously positive, I think, and probably 75% of the active 2600 game developing community subscribes to that list.

896551[/snapback]

 

What? I've been a long time subscriber to the [stella] mailing list and I haven't received a message in months. Did it move? I just thought it died out. There had been a lot of discussion on the list about moving. I guess I wasn't invited to the party.

896821[/snapback]

Well, you've missed a lot of pretty good discussion, I think - check the archives (if they still work). Seems like messages are getting dropped all over the place, though. Hopefully we move soon...

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Interestingly, while lowering the bar for programmers, it doesn't lower and might even raise the bar for what's going to be a worthwhile, publishable game.

 

It'll all just fall into place.

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Big Player]

The reaction on [stella] has been cautiously positive, I think, and probably 75% of the active 2600 game developing community subscribes to that list.

896551[/snapback]

 

What? I've been a long time subscriber to the [stella] mailing list and I haven't received a message in months. Did it move? I just thought it died out. There had been a lot of discussion on the list about moving. I guess I wasn't invited to the party.

896821[/snapback]

Well, you've missed a lot of pretty good discussion, I think - check the archives (if they still work). Seems like messages are getting dropped all over the place, though. Hopefully we move soon...

896886[/snapback]

 

I guess I'm out of luck. I tried to subscribe again but it says I am already subscribed.

 

Those dropped messages were annoying. I would get the response but never the original message. The archives are working now though, so I'll just keep up with the list that way. I've never posted a message to the list. I just like to keep up on the new homebrews and maybe pick up a bit of technical information on the 2600. (Most is over my head.)

 

When the Stella list does move, someone please post about it in the AA forums.