Colors

[Allas]

I recently adquire a 130 XE. First tries with sio2pc works fine and every thing works as I remember years ago.

 

But when i try to load G2f graphics I've notice colors aren't the same. For example in TWO STUPID DOGS the picture shows brown-backgound, in my 130xe the background are green tones.

 

2_Stupid_Dogs.zip

 

I go to BASIC and show in GR.9 scale colors and notice than colors are different from the scale.

 

 

For example, you can see column 1 is orange tones, but inmy atari 130XE NTSC I see green tones.

 

Because that I see G2F graphics very ugly... someone could help me.. is there color difference between 130 XE and 800XL

[SeaGtGruff]

I recently adquire a 130 XE. First tries with sio2pc works fine and every thing works as I remember years ago.

 

But when i try to load G2f graphics I've notice colors aren't the same. For example in TWO STUPID DOGS the picture shows brown-backgound, in my 130xe the background are green tones.

 

2_Stupid_Dogs.zip

 

I go to BASIC and show in GR.9 scale colors and notice than colors are different from the scale.

 

 

For example, you can see column 1 is orange tones, but inmy atari 130XE NTSC I see green tones.

 

Because that I see G2F graphics very ugly... someone could help me.. is there color difference between 130 XE and 800XL

956481[/snapback]

 

As far as I know, there are no color differences between the 800XL and the 130XE (I've owned both), but there are color differences between a CTIA-equipped Atari and a GTIA-equipped Atari (although they affect hi-res graphics pseudo-colors, not the Atari's "real" colors).

 

I still have a working 65XE, but I can't connect it to my current video equipment (TV, VCR, DVD), so I can't verify the accuracy of the following screenshot. But this is a 256-color display I created years ago on the Atari, using GRAPHICS 9, DLIs, and P/M graphics. I used to use the program to help me adjust my TV's colors; I'd adjust the brightness and contrast so that all 16 shades of gray looked good, and I'd adjust the tint control so that hue 1 was a decent yellow. But I think that if you adjust the TV colors normally (usually meaning to get a decent looking flesh tone), hue 1 actually has a slight greenish tinge to it. The technical documentation for the 2600 (which has the same colors as a CTIA Atari) says that hue 1 is the same as the colorburst frequency, and documentation for the NTSC colorspace says that the colorburst frequency is yellow or greenish-yellow. As for hue 15-- which all of the emulators show as brown in their palettes-- it has a definite greenish tinge on a real Atari.

 

256color.bmp

 

Michael Rideout

[Rybags]

Is it a PAL or NTSC Atari?

 

PAL Ataris are different. It is well known that Color 1 and 15 are virtually identical on PAL Ataris.

 

Color 4 on PAL is also violet/purple. I think it should be more reddish, although I haven't seen a live NTSC machine.

 

I have both an 800XL and 130XE and have owned the 400 and 600XL. Aside from the complaint of display quality being progressively worse in the newer machines, the colors were the same in all of them.

 

If I get time later, I'll do some screen caps from a real machine.

[Allas]

Well, as I said my machine is a 130XE NTSC. Thanks for the help... Now, after many tests with games and demos I thinked NTSC and PAL machines have different colors. Off course, if PAL machines can look STUPID DOGS with the same colors like Atari emulator:

 

 

When I turn on my 130xe with default factory set TV color, i get this: (I try to fill with photoshop to emulate like I saw)

 

 

Then, I set the tint level at minimal expresion and get:

 

 

I get the minimal tint adjust, my TV can't set lower, but I suposse if I can, then the colors will be like the original picture.

 

At first, I think ANTIC ot GTIA is damaged. I want to know if a NTSC user can see the correct colors in this picture. Perhaps my BioVision Samsumg TV is the problem, I'll try to get an old TV and make another test.

 

If Im not wrong CTIA is from older 800. Series XE and XL use GTIA, but a difference between XL and XE is the artifacting colors. I thinked was a signal error in XE production (low quality signal).

Edited October 30, 2005 by Allas

[miker]

When i load this pic on my comp, i saw the colors similar as on first figure (a little less color intensity, though). Maybe try adjusting color (or maybe it's NTSC matter)...

[pps]

Offcourse there is a difference between the xl & the xe.

 

xe has a slightly sharper picture and the colours are little lighter compared to the xl.

 

I never saw a ntsc model in action, but it might be that there are some differences in the colours too.

[emkay]

When i load this pic on my comp, i saw the colors similar as on first figure (a little less color intensity, though). Maybe try adjusting color (or maybe it's NTSC matter)...

956645[/snapback]

 

 

The Graph2fnt pallette fits almost to the PAL XL.

[SeaGtGruff]

Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures.

 

10 REM * DISPLAY ALL 256 COLORS
11 GRAPHICS 9:FOR V=0 TO 15:COLOR V
12 FOR N=0 TO 4:PLOT 5*V+N,0
13 DRAWTO 5*V+N,191:NEXT N:NEXT V
14 D=256*PEEK(561)+PEEK(560)
15 FOR N=1 TO 16:READ V:POKE D+V,143
16 NEXT N:FOR N=0 TO 25:READ V
17 POKE 1664+N,V:NEXT N:POKE 512,139
18 POKE 513,6:POKE 546,128:POKE 547,6
19 POKE 53248,40:POKE 53249,208
20 POKE 53261,255:POKE 53262,255
21 POKE 53266,0:POKE 53267,0
22 POKE 54286,192
23 GOTO 23
24 DATA 16,28,40,52,64,76,88,102,114
25 DATA 126,138,150,162,174,186,198
26 DATA 8,72,169,0,133,203,104,40,76
27 DATA 95,228,8,72,165,203,24,105,16
28 DATA 141,26,208,133,203,104,40,64

 

Michael Rideout

[SeaGtGruff]

Is it a PAL or NTSC Atari?

 

PAL Ataris are different.  It is well known that Color 1 and 15 are virtually identical on PAL Ataris.

956597[/snapback]

 

Is the PAL 800 palette the same as the PAL 2600 palette?

 

Color 4 on PAL is also violet/purple.  I think it should be more reddish, although I haven't seen a live NTSC machine.

956597[/snapback]

 

On a live NTSC 800, hue 4 is red, but not pure red; it's said to be a "rose" color, so it has a slight hint of violet. But I think it's more red than hue 3, which is more of an orange-red. However, NTSC televisions are notorious for color issues, which is why they have a tint control, so it can make a difference how you have the tint control set.

 

I have both an 800XL and 130XE and have owned the 400 and 600XL.  Aside from the complaint of display quality being progressively worse in the newer machines, the colors were the same in all of them.

 

If I get time later, I'll do some screen caps from a real machine.

956597[/snapback]

 

That would be great!

 

Michael Rideout

[Rybags]

I'll try and get those screen caps a bit later.

 

No idea if PAL XL matches PAL 2600, but I am led to believe that the PAL 2600 are also different to NTSC models in that regard.

 

PAL color 3 is a fairly pure red, it always mystified me why so many games used color 4. It has virtually no hint of red in my observation (other than that obviously needed to mix with blue to achieve violet/purple).

 

One suggestion: if your machine has the color trimmer adjustment (underneath, accessable from outside on the 800XL), you could try adjusting it. Do it while you have your color demo proggie running.

[kevin242]

....

One suggestion:  if your machine has the color trimmer adjustment (underneath, accessable from outside on the 800XL), you could try adjusting it.  Do it while you have your color demo proggie running.

956673[/snapback]

 

 

My old 130xe had similar problems, I had to open it up and adjust the color but once

I did it was fine. I sold it (unfort) and once it arrived at the new owner's it was display

ing colors somewhat off again, so he adjusted it and since then (AFAIK) has had no

problems. I think it is more commen in the early XE's because I recently bought a

later model XE and never had a problem.

[Rybags]

Screencaps from my 2 machines.

 

There's some major RFI happening here. Possibly because I have 3 computers running.

 

I got an almost unreadable display plugging directly into my capture card, so I had to run the 2 Ataris through the VCR. From there, it's a 30 foot journey through RCA leads, and capture in composite input mode.

 

The 800XL is a bit washed out and the 130XE is still copping some major interference.

 

Screen was generated in Graphics 9, all default settings. Colors 0 thru 15, with 1 color 0 pixel width between the bars.

[krupkaj]

Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures.

956664[/snapback]

So here is snap from my PAL 800XE. It is directly grabbed from composite output with my TV card.

Edited October 30, 2005 by krupkaj

[Foebane]

Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures.

956664[/snapback]

So here is snap from my PAL 800XE. It is directly grabbed from composite output with my TV card.

956712[/snapback]

 

Compared with the original image from the emulator:

 

 

You'll see that unlike the screen grab from a real Atari, the emulator's colours are slightly different at best. No wonder they don't match.

[Allas]

....

One suggestion:  if your machine has the color trimmer adjustment (underneath, accessable from outside on the 800XL), you could try adjusting it.  Do it while you have your color demo proggie running.

956673[/snapback]

 

 

My old 130xe had similar problems, I had to open it up and adjust the color but once

I did it was fine. I sold it (unfort) and once it arrived at the new owner's it was display

ing colors somewhat off again, so he adjusted it and since then (AFAIK) has had no

problems. I think it is more commen in the early XE's because I recently bought a

later model XE and never had a problem.

956676[/snapback]

 

 

I think your answer is the winner, very interesting... it's a pity for me because my TV can't raise tint at correct level.

 

Well, this is my screencap 130XE at default factory sets TV NTSC:

 

Edited October 30, 2005 by Allas

[SeaGtGruff]

....

One suggestion:  if your machine has the color trimmer adjustment (underneath, accessable from outside on the 800XL), you could try adjusting it.  Do it while you have your color demo proggie running.

956673[/snapback]

 

 

My old 130xe had similar problems, I had to open it up and adjust the color but once

I did it was fine. I sold it (unfort) and once it arrived at the new owner's it was display

ing colors somewhat off again, so he adjusted it and since then (AFAIK) has had no

problems. I think it is more commen in the early XE's because I recently bought a

later model XE and never had a problem.

956676[/snapback]

 

 

I think your answer is the winner, very interesting... it's a pity for me because my TV can't raise tint at correct level.

 

Well, this is my screencap 130XE at default factory sets TV NTSC:

 

956766[/snapback]

 

I'd like to see a screenshot from an NTSC 800 that has had the colors "corrected," if anyone can provide one. I've never had an 800, but have had a 600XL, 800XL, 65XE, and 130XE, and every one of them showed colors that were similar to the screenshot Allas posted, although hue 15 had more of a brownish tinge (not pure brown by any means, but greenish-brown).

 

Michael Rideout

[pps]

Well, this is my screencap 130XE at default factory sets TV NTSC:

...

 

Ooops, what´s that?!? No yellow? Large blue. Never seen such a palette on 8-Bit ATARI.

[SeaGtGruff]

Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures.

956664[/snapback]

So here is snap from my PAL 800XE. It is directly grabbed from composite output with my TV card.

956712[/snapback]

 

Looks like the emulator palettes are based on a PAL palette, then, unless the NTSC palette looks a lot different than what I've seen once it's "corrected" from the factory defaults.

 

I see from your screenshot that my program needs a little tweaking to widen the P/M shapes on the left and right edges of the screen, which I put there to cover up the other hues so the left and right screen edges are always black.

 

Thanks, guys!

 

One thing I don't understand, though, is why the NTSC 2600 and NTSC 800 have the same palettes, but the PAL 2600 and PAL 800 have different palettes? I mean, why on Earth did Atari not give the PAL 2600 a complete palette, and arrange the hues correctly? The PAL 2600 palette is kind of whacko, as you can see below.

 

Michael Rideout

 

 

These were captured from an emulator, so I don't know how true the palettes are compared to real Ataris, but you can see how whacko the PAL 2600 palette is.

[krupkaj]

Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures.

956664[/snapback]

So here is snap from my PAL 800XE. It is directly grabbed from composite output with my TV card.

956712[/snapback]

 

Compared with the original image from the emulator:

 

 

You'll see that unlike the screen grab from a real Atari, the emulator's colours are slightly different at best. No wonder they don't match.

956760[/snapback]

 

The fact is emulator has different colors than real machine. On emulator is color descibed with RGB components (from table) while real Atari has CHROMA/LUMA signals. I think it is very big difference between these color spaces so it is not possible to make emulator with the same colors as original.

Moreoever there are differences between NTSC/PAL/SECAM on real Ataris.

[emkay]

factory sets TV NTSC:

 

956766[/snapback]

 

 

Something is wrong here. Colour 1 is a green yellow.

In regular it must be some "gold/rust" colour.

 

I know from the pal XE's that much of them showing the colour "F" as green, instead of a yellow brown.

[emkay]

As I said above:

The G2F pallette fits pretty close to the PAL XL. Only colour "f" is more green on most PAL XE's

 

 

 

[SeaGtGruff]

factory sets TV NTSC:

 

956766[/snapback]

 

 

Something is wrong here. Colour 1 is a green yellow.

In regular it must be some "gold/rust" colour.

956785[/snapback]

 

Actually, that's just about the way it always looked on my (unadjusted) NTSC Ataris, but some of the other colors in that screenshot look a little off. Hue 4 was always more of a red on my NTSC machines, with just a tiny hint of violet, and hue 15 was more of a greenish-brown.

 

According to the documentation, NTSC hue 1 is supposed to be the same color as the NTSC colorburst frequency. And according to some docs I saw on the web about NTSC television and the NTSC colorspace, the NTSC colorburst frequency is yellow with a hint of green.

 

Michael Rideout

[Allas]

Thanks to all,... good comentaries.

 

Meanwhile, I had tested the 130XE with other older TVs and the same thing, yellow color not exist in my machine, in any way.

 

First, I had used TV out signal, it could be that RGB signal is corrected, I must have this test then.

 

But, I called an old friend Atari technical hardware. He said me that under the 130XE there is a hole and with a screwdriver I can adjust the color. Is that correct? He said not be sure...

Edited October 30, 2005 by Allas

[krupkaj]

Yes, that's true.

[Allas]

Yes, that's true.

956853[/snapback]

 

 

Great!!! ... another question ..... I can set while computer is turn on ?