Just got my first Atari, 1040ST

[nyder]

Hello everyone.

 

 

I've been into computers since I got my first taste of them back in the early 80's, on a Trs-80 Model III. It was a stupid basic program that I still remember to this day.

10 Print "Hello"

20 goto 10

30 end

 

Yes simple, but it got my hooked.

 

anyways, I grew up in a Trs-80 mod III & IV world, then got a C64.

Later I got a XT compatable, then a 386.

Then an Amiga 500 system which I ended up selling to my friend, who traded it for an 1000 with a scsi adaptor & harddrive (he was able to use the harddrive on his synth).

I then realised how cool the amiga's were, so I bought an 1200.

then I ended up with 2000's, 4000's, various PC's.

Lost them all.

 

Recently I started collecting again, and while, yes, I went for a bunch of Amigas, I was able to pick up a 1040ST for $50 and a Ps/2 (broken, I need to fix it for the person first).

 

So, as you can see, I don't have any experiences with Atari computers, other then a buddy of mine had an Atari 130xe that I dinked on a little. But not enough to really remember anything.

 

I have a STM1 mouse for it, which I opened up to find one of the plastic bits that holds the metal parts was missing, so I put a jumper in it, and taped it do keep it in place. Hopefully that will hold.

 

Problem is, I don't have a monitor cable. I have an Commodore 1080 monitor. It has RGB 9db input, plus audio/video/luma rca plugs.

 

I've dug out various schematics for adaptors, but I haven't found any made specificly for the Amiga 1080 monitors (not even 1084).

Most the schematics are for using Multisync monitors (which I have, maybe. my Amiga 1200's connected to something, just not sure if it does 35kHz).

I have the schematics for the 9db out on the 1084.

I have various schematics of Ataris 13din Video out.

At first the problem was, which pins are number what on the atari.

I finally found something that said:

 

From Back of Atari

 4   3   2   1
 8   7   6   5
 12  11  10  9
	 13

 

And this is the list of Atari ST Monitor Pinouts:

1 Audio Out

2 Composite Video

3 General Purpose Output

4 Monochrome Detect

5 Audio In

6 Green

7 Red

8 +12V (apparently ground for 520ST)

9 Horizontal Sync

10 Blue

11 Monochrome Video

12 Vertical Sync

13 Ground

 

 

Commodore 1084 Digital Mode:

1 Ground

2 Ground

3 Red

4 Green

5 Blue

6 Intensity

7 n/c

8 Horizontal Sync

9 Veritcal Sync

 

 

So, what I did was take a cable I had, that had a db9 female on one end, and a db25 male on the other.

I took the db25 male end off, and slid the pins out of it's container, and figured out which color let to which input on the db9 end.

I took the wire that was connected to the shield of the db25 connector, and put wires 1 & 2 (from db9) together with it, and put a plug on those ends.

 

So, it went:

 

Monitor - > Atari

1 13

2 13

3 7

4 6

5 10

6 nc

7 nc

8 9

9 12

 

6 & 7 had a pin on the monitor side, but none into the atari.

 

I had the monitor set to Digital Pos, and RGB mode.

I can set in the back of the monitor, Analog, Digital POS, Digital NEG modes

And in the front, I can control: RGB, Sep, Comp Modes

 

I wasn't able to get a picture on any modes, but I did notice that when I turned the atari off, I could see the desktop for a sec and the screen closed.

 

So, I guess I have a few questions.

 

1. did I connect something wrong?

2. Am I assuming something wrong?

3. The Atari does boot up a prmitive desktop when theres not disk intersted, correct?

4. Anyone offer any help on how I can make a cable to connect to my rgb of my Amiga 1080 monitor?

5. does that missing Intensity matter?

6. It says when the line is low, ST enters High Res state, does that mean I need to connect a pin to that port and keep it high? (which would mean current to it, correct?)

 

 

 

So any help, suggestions, offers to send me a cable would be greatly appreciated.

 

when I bought it, I hadn't realised I wasn't getting a monitor cable with it, and of course, they have to use some hardly used din connector.

Oh, I know the 1080 cannot do the high res monochrome mode, but it can handle the med & low res modes fine.

 

Just want to get it working so I can use it before I decide to start hacking more memory into it, and god knows what else. thanks

Edited April 16, 2007 by nyder

[+remowilliams]

1. did I connect something wrong?

2. Am I assuming something wrong?

Your connections seem correct. I use several 1084s with various machines including my Amigas and STs in RGB

 

I had the monitor set to Digital Pos, and RGB mode.

I can set in the back of the monitor, Analog, Digital POS, Digital NEG modes

And in the front, I can control: RGB, Sep, Comp Modes

The ST color output is analog RGB

 

3. The Atari does boot up a prmitive desktop when theres not disk intersted, correct?

Yes the 1040 (and all ROM based STs) will show the GEM desktop, provided that everything is working properly.

 

5. does that missing Intensity matter?

That line is not used for analog RGB

 

6. It says when the line is low, ST enters High Res state, does that mean I need to connect a pin to that port and keep it high? (which would mean current to it, correct?)

When nothing is connected to that pin you will have color (low/med res).

 

The ST forum here should have a number of posts relating to ST RGB and monitors, especially the 108x series.

Edited April 16, 2007 by remowilliams

[nyder]

Thanks for the reply.

 

So it's in analog mode, not digital? Okay, I guess that changes everything.

 

The only different between analog & digital is:

7 is composite Sync

8 & 9 (Hsync & Vsync) isn't connected.

 

So, then my question is, What do I use for the Composite sync? Do I put H&V together?

 

 

I guess I just figured it was digital because it had the Hsync & Vsync, but no composite sync.

 

 

Oh, I just read the possible Atari's pin 2, the Composite Video is actually video sync, and not a picture, anyone know if thats true? Because if it is, well, then, I just found my solution.

 

 

 

 

thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. did I connect something wrong?

2. Am I assuming something wrong?

Your connections seem correct. I use several 1084s with various machines including my Amigas and STs in RGB

 

I had the monitor set to Digital Pos, and RGB mode.

I can set in the back of the monitor, Analog, Digital POS, Digital NEG modes

And in the front, I can control: RGB, Sep, Comp Modes

The ST color output is analog RGB

 

3. The Atari does boot up a prmitive desktop when theres not disk intersted, correct?

Yes the 1040 (and all ROM based STs) will show the GEM desktop, provided that everything is working properly.

 

5. does that missing Intensity matter?

That line is not used for analog RGB

 

6. It says when the line is low, ST enters High Res state, does that mean I need to connect a pin to that port and keep it high? (which would mean current to it, correct?)

When nothing is connected to that pin you will have color (low/med res).

 

The ST forum here should have a number of posts relating to ST RGB and monitors, especially the 108x series.

Edited April 16, 2007 by nyder

[+remowilliams]

So, then my question is, What do I use for the Composite sync? Do I put H&V together?

Here's where it gets tricky. Many 108x pinouts show that the monitors don't use separate H/V sync in analog RGB mode. I can tell you for a fact, that isn't true for at least some 108x models. Other 108x models do not seem to accept composite sync properly. I don't think you can tie H/V directly together, I think there needs to be resistors or something involved there.

 

For the record, my ST cable uses separate H/V sync, and (with my adapter ends) plugs into the 1084SP (DIN plug) and 1084S and SD models (DSUB) and works just fine.

 

Oh, I just read the possible Atari's pin 2, the Composite Video is actually video sync, and not a picture, anyone know if thats true? Because if it is, well, then, I just found my solution.

That actually is a composite video pin, and not a sync pin. However - it is only active on "FM" designated machines such as the 520STFM, as they have the internal RF modulator that is needed for the composite video out.

 

Here is a thread about Nightsprinter's search for 1084S-ST video

[nyder]

Okay, thanks.

 

I guess there's a few different version of those monitors out there, which I knew, but apparently it's different amoung them how they set the composte sync, and H & V syncs up.

 

I might be lucky and it can take the sync from either the H or V. There's a slim chance it might take both put together, but chances are I will have to put a resistor and/or a diode on it also.

 

Apparently if I have another monitor, that had the Din plugs or something I might be in better luck.

But either way, I guess I have things to try out.

 

Some in that other post mentioned that Redmond Cables might still sell stuff, and since they are sort of local to me, I guess I should check them out. But i'd as soon as make one for a few bucks then buy one for $20+.

 

 

I haven't been able to find any schematics or something like it for the Amiga 1080 monitors. Would be helpful on whats different between it and the other versions.

 

Too bad it just didn't have the chroma & luma lines.

 

 

Whats the difference between the digital and analog? You can use Hsync & Vsync for both Analog and Digital Video modes can't you? Do they use a different sort of value? Like Digital is 47ohms and Analog is 75ohms?

 

If i have to use some diodes & resistors, does anyone know what I need to use to make the Hsync & Vsynce into a working comp sync?

 

thanks

 

 

I did some more hunting and lucked upon a site of commodore schematics, and since I was lazy and decided to use Spiderzilla to grab everything in the site, I found some additional files that had more info, but wasn't listed in the web index.

As luck would have it, one of these was a 1080 text file.

 

What i've found is that apparently the amiga connects up thru analog also. Makes me wonder what the digital is used for on the 1080 monitor? Anyways, after checking the connections listed and comparred it to an Amiga video port diagram, I figured out that the Analog is at 75 Ohms, and all the various syncs are at 47 Ohms. Probably doesn't matter though.

 

I just need to look up about Composite Sync and H & V sync.

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to add i've been a bit busy and haven't gotten to it yet. Will let you know exactly what I had to do to get it to work.

 

 

 

 

 

So, then my question is, What do I use for the Composite sync? Do I put H&V together?

Here's where it gets tricky. Many 108x pinouts show that the monitors don't use separate H/V sync in analog RGB mode. I can tell you for a fact, that isn't true for at least some 108x models. Other 108x models do not seem to accept composite sync properly. I don't think you can tie H/V directly together, I think there needs to be resistors or something involved there.

 

For the record, my ST cable uses separate H/V sync, and (with my adapter ends) plugs into the 1084SP (DIN plug) and 1084S and SD models (DSUB) and works just fine.

 

Oh, I just read the possible Atari's pin 2, the Composite Video is actually video sync, and not a picture, anyone know if thats true? Because if it is, well, then, I just found my solution.

That actually is a composite video pin, and not a sync pin. However - it is only active on "FM" designated machines such as the 520STFM, as they have the internal RF modulator that is needed for the composite video out.

 

Here is a thread about Nightsprinter's search for 1084S-ST video

Edited April 19, 2007 by nyder

[nyder]

Okay, got the cable done today.

 

Finally decided to look for info on composite sync, and getting csync from Hsync and/or Vsync.

 

While normally it requires some sort of chip to make the signals compatable or something, sometimes the Csync is sent on the Hsync also. Which is the cast with the Atari ST's it seems.

 

My only problem is I can't seem to get it to stop rolling. I can for a few seconds, but it will slowly start moving after a bit, or quicker if I move the mouse around. It doesn't speed up very fast, but it seems no matter how I set it, it will start moving slowly after 5 or so seconds.

 

Any ideas? Maybe my grounds aren't good enough? Interference? I was wrong about the Csync bring on the Hsync for this computer?

 

All the wires in the db9 connector is connected, they just aren't connected to pins at the atari end. Is that possible causing extra interferrance or anything?

 

I can make the cable better, I just used a 9db to 25db cable that had a pretty thick cable on it (figured it was better shielded). I can cut the ends off of a vga monitor cable since I have some extra HD15's, or I could get a db9 monitor cable from a used computer parts store, and cut the ends off that. Monitor/video card cables would probably be the best to use, I would think.

 

Any ideas?

 

I just remembered that I had changed the V-position on the back because it was displaying the c64 screen badly, do you think maybe that is why it won't stop scrolling? I just don't like changing it because it requires a screwdriver to change it and it off to the side in the hole.

Edited April 20, 2007 by nyder

[+Mitch]

You need to combine the sync signals to get it to stop rolling. Just use a couple resistors in the 500-600 ohms range, attach one end of the first resistor to the h-sync, and one end of the second resistor to the v-sync. Now combine the two open ends of the resistor and attach the combined resistor ends to the c-sync.

 

Mitch

[nyder]

Okay, a couple of resistors.

 

Does it matter which end of the resistor I connect? Is there a pos/neg sides?

 

 

Do you think I can get away using a used resistor that I will have to desolder off something? I want to at least, just get something working, and then after the 1st, I can order new parts to make a better cable. would be nice if I could find a din 13 connector.

 

thanks

[+Mitch]

Okay, a couple of resistors.

 

Does it matter which end of the resistor I connect? Is there a pos/neg sides?

 

 

Do you think I can get away using a used resistor that I will have to desolder off something? I want to at least, just get something working, and then after the 1st, I can order new parts to make a better cable. would be nice if I could find a din 13 connector.

 

thanks

 

Nope, doesn't matter which end of the resistor you use, resistors don't have any polarity. As far as using used resistors, it really depends if it still works or not. If you have an ohm meter and it tests out fine then no problem.

 

Mitch

[nyder]

if it works, then the ohm meter will pick up, like when I test wires and they are touching? and I assume if the needle doesn't move, then it's dead? or the other way around?

[Christos]

If it shows you a very large resistance...then it is broken.

[nyder]

I'm dyslexic, so I tend to get confused by what people say sometimes.

 

The problem is, I don't know how to use my multimeters very well. I have an analog one and a digital one.

 

I used to use Analog ones to see if which wires were connected to each other, by putting the setting on the one that says, OHM X1K.

Then when to wires are connected the needle jumps pretty much to the other side.

 

I haven't been able to figure out which function on my digital multimeter does the same thing, because it doesn't seem to work the same way.

 

So, are you saying I need to use the same OHM setting? And if so, if the needed moves when I touch it to each end, does that mean it's good, or bad?

 

And is there a chart of something that can show me what the resistor I need looks like?

 

thanks

Edited April 20, 2007 by nyder

[Christos]

OK, I' ll try to be a bit more precise. First of all use the digital one, though the analog one works exactly the same way, you connect both (I don't know the english word sorry) wires to the opposite edges of the resistor and then you do the setting of the multimeter. If you have a resistor of approximately 270 Ohms you should put the multimeter in the appropriate setting. Each of the numbers in the multimeter shows the maximum resistance it can measure, so if the possible settings are 0 - 20 - 200 -2K - 20K - 200 K etc your first measurement should be in the 2K setting. If that doesn't show a measurement your resistance is either to small or too big. So you select a different setting until you get a reading..

Edited April 21, 2007 by Christos

[nyder]

Okay, I'll just have to fiddle around with it I guess.

 

The problem I was having before was I could set the digial mm up, so it says connected or not connected, but it wasn't calling it out correctly. wires that were connected weren't able to get it to say connected, only the ones connected to the ground were. Maybe I had it set to low sensivity or something. Stupid cryptic devices that doesnt come with a decent manual. thats when a friend gave me his old analog multimeter, and i'm at least, able to figure out what's connected to what now. =)

 

I just need to dig out some resistors. i have no idea what the 500-600 ones are, but I think I have a link to a database of info.

 

Some guy in the city south of me (I live in seattle, he's in tacoma) posted a used 1084 monitor on craigslist, which is cool. Now I can actually have a monitor dedicated to the Atari. Having trouble digging up a ride at the moment. Don't want to take the bus, but I need the monitor, so I might have too.

 

Anyways, thanks for the info, I might not get to the cable for a couple more days, but I will let you know how it goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, I' ll try to be a bit more precise. First of all use the digital one, though the analog one works exactly the same way, you connect both (I don't know the english word sorry) wires to the opposite edges of the resistor and then you do the setting of the multimeter. If you have a resistor of approximately 270 Ohms you should put the multimeter in the appropriate setting. Each of the numbers in the multimeter shows the maximum resistance it can measure, so if the possible settings are 0 - 20 - 200 -2K - 20K - 200 K etc your first measurement should be in the 2K setting. If that doesn't show a measurement your resistance is either to small or too big. So you select a different setting until you get a reading..

[nyder]

Okay, found a couple of 510 ohm resistors on a couple of old vid cards I had (I kept them because they had old dip ram on it, guess they were handy for =more then that.)

 

connected it all up, and presto! Works great.

 

Thanks very much for the help.

 

couldn't find my desolder wicks, but getting the resistors out was easy. Just wanted to take this plug off of an old ps1 board while i had my crap out. oh, well.

 

anyways, for the audio part, do I just need the wire connecting to the middle part of an rca plug (that's what the monitor has for speaker) and thats it? don't need to worry about the ground? Or should I connect both the middle & ground to the audio out on the st?

 

Also, which mode do most of you work in? Mono high res, or the color modes?

 

Oh, I got lucky and got a 1084 monitor someone was giving away. I'm not actually getting it till wednesday because it was being given away in Tacoma and i'm in Seattle and don't drive. So a friend picked it up and and i'm meeting him wednesday. Also picked up a few old mac plus an Aplle 12" rgb monitor.

I never hear much about using the atari's with apple monitors, but i'm pretty sure some of the older ones do 640x200 at 15kHz. Going to look into it, seems the apple monitors are easier to find then the amiga or atari monitors.

 

anyways, thanks for the help and the answer about the audio cable would be appreciated.

 

I forgot to add your description of the digital multimeter worked for me. Mine was different then yours, but I was able to figure it out. I hope. At least I got around 510 for each resistor, which is what it was supposed to be, plus the picture is stable now.

Edited April 24, 2007 by nyder

[nyder]

The audio cable I need to make. Because the monitor has a single rca plug for mono, all I need is a single connection to the middle part of the rca plug?

 

The rca cable I am using has the outer shell part connected to the, well, I guess the ground part of the cable. Its the wires around the middle wire (which has plastic around it so they can't touch, of course). I can just cut these off? Or should I connect them also?

 

thanks

[+Mitch]

The audio cable needs the ground wire connected as well.

 

Mitch

[nyder]

Oh. I just connected it without and it was working. didn't sound the greatest, but then, i'm not familiar with atari's sound. I guess I'll touch the grounds to it and see if it improves. Guess maybe I should plug the soldering iron back in. =)

 

thanks

[nyder]

when I solder the ground up to it also, the sound volume cut way way down. So I went back to just having the middle wire connected.

 

the STf is mono only, correct?

[NightSprinter]

No, the STf can do color or mono. It's just you need a monitor capable of doing 640x400 resolution in order to make use of monochrome mode. Thanks for pointing the link to my thread Remo. I can say that some of the D-series 1084s monitors do require seperated Horizontal and Vertical-sync in order to work right. A cable I bought from a UK dealer that shut down last year combined the two wires. Because of my monitor's design, it resulted in a vertically-scrolling picture that was scrambled horizontally at an angle (just the GEM desktop would show a purple bar and a green bar that scrolled). Seperating the two signals actually fixed it.

 

But back on topic, you would need either the monochrome Atari monitor, or you would need a PC monitor combined with a VGA adapter.

[nyder]

No, the STf can do color or mono. It's just you need a monitor capable of doing 640x400 resolution in order to make use of monochrome mode. Thanks for pointing the link to my thread Remo. I can say that some of the D-series 1084s monitors do require seperated Horizontal and Vertical-sync in order to work right. A cable I bought from a UK dealer that shut down last year combined the two wires. Because of my monitor's design, it resulted in a vertically-scrolling picture that was scrambled horizontally at an angle (just the GEM desktop would show a purple bar and a green bar that scrolled). Seperating the two signals actually fixed it.

 

But back on topic, you would need either the monochrome Atari monitor, or you would need a PC monitor combined with a VGA adapter.

 

 

 

Oh, sorry, my mistake, I mean mono audio. It's not capable of stereo sound (or is it sound output?) without a hardware hack, correct?

 

 

I have my 1040stf hooked up with my 1080 monitor just great with the H & V sync, connected to 510ohm resistors, connected to each other for the Csync.

 

I am getting a 1084 monitor today, so I will check if that is different.

 

Apparently the 1080 monitors were made by a few different companys, so some of them are a little different.

I guess if you open the case and check the circuit board, you can see if it needs a cable like mine, or if it will work without resistors (like just connecting the Hsync to the Csync).

 

I did find out that apple uses some retarted modes for their mac monitors, like 24khz and crap. I guess that explains why I don't find atari-mac monitor adaptors (or even amiga to mac monitor adaptors).

 

I need to figure out if the Sony CPD-1302 does 35kHz. I use it as a multisync monitor with my Amiga 1200, but the person I got it from doesn't know if it can sync that high. I'm sort of kicking myself I never went through with the deal for a Nec Multisync 2 (2d?) monitor. I used to have a nice Nec Multisync monitor that was pretty nice.

 

But I guess the question really is, am i going to be using mono mode that much? Probably not. maybe if I got a harddrive or some sort of scsi adaptor, but since I"m only floppys, i guess it don't matter.

[NightSprinter]

Yeah you are right Nyder. Stereo sound can't be done without a mod of some kind (think "TweetyBoard"). I think the reason why your 1084S worked fine with C-Sync as that it may have well been made by Philips. As we both stated there are numerous manufacturers of that line, so there's no way to tell if one cable setup works on every model.

[nyder]

Yeah you are right Nyder. Stereo sound can't be done without a mod of some kind (think "TweetyBoard"). I think the reason why your 1084S worked fine with C-Sync as that it may have well been made by Philips. As we both stated there are numerous manufacturers of that line, so there's no way to tell if one cable setup works on every model.

 

 

You mean 1080 (you said 1084S, which I wish I had!). Since then, I have received a 1084 with the db9, and a 1902 (C128 monitor) which also has a DB 9 plug, But I think it just might be digital input, since the C64 mode uses the Croma/lums connectors.

 

I need to get my hands on some other 1080 monitors and hopefully find one that syncs fine with the Hsync going to the Vsync, so I can test my cable on it.

[+remowilliams]

Yeah you are right Nyder. Stereo sound can't be done without a mod of some kind (think "TweetyBoard").

Ah the TweetyBoard - that brings back memories. Though it annoyed me to have to rig a bypass to recombine the sound for games that used digisound.

 

Since then, I have received a 1084 with the db9, and a 1902 (C128 monitor) which also has a DB 9 plug, But I think it just might be digital input, since the C64 mode uses the Croma/lums connectors.

The DB9 on the 1084 should be for both analog RGB and TTL RGBI input. The DB9 on the 1902 is TTL RGBI only IIRC.

[NightSprinter]

Hit that nail right on the head Remo. My 1084S has a switch on the back to go between digital and analog monitor modes. So for your DB9 cable you might want to try and plug it into the monitor and check for the original problems I've had. If you get a stable, clear picture you're good to go.