What Would You Do with Video Board XE?

[peteym5]

We are all still here waiting for news about Video Board XE from Electron. If you know any new information, please post something here. I know a few game developers are probably ready to jump in and make a game for it. The board is being developed in Poland and documentation about the board is Polish. I am watching for further developments on here. I hope a new discussion here will help developers and end-users to communicate and provide information about this new board.

 

What games or type of games would you like to see done with such a video board? What other applications would you like to see get developed? How much would you be willing to pay for a board? I personally believe if the board is going to be successful, A few applications has to be written for it, games, highcolor jpeg and gif viewers, animation software, graphics editors, etc. This hardware will be good for driving Nintendo/Sega type side-scrollers.

 

For those of you that have not heard anything about this board, It will add a new layer of video on top of Ataris' Antic/GTIA graphics. Generate bitmap sprites in 320x200 resolution in 256 colors. Sprites can be any size and board will have its own 512k of memory. It will create palettes in Truecolor (65535 RGB) . A Color Map is also available that can make each character a different color or a set of colors for a set of pixels in a square. Similar to the Commodore color map, but has a larger custom pallet. The video board does not change the resolution of the Antic generated background, it will still be 160 or 320 pixels wide. GTIA will still be available with the GTIA modes and Player/Missile graphics.

Edited September 4, 2007 by peteym5

[+Stephen]

Games are cool, but honestly, I would like to have a full color ANSI term emulator. A color update to Ice-T XE would be the supreme application for me.

 

I suppose the color JPEG viewer could be updated, but there's not much impressive about just viewing a still picture that will take one or two minutes to decode.

 

Stephen Anderson

[deathtrappomegranate]

We are all still here waiting for news about Video Board XE from Electron.

Not all of us.

[peteym5]

I suppose the color JPEG viewer could be updated, but there's not much impressive about just viewing a still picture that will take one or two minutes to decode.

 

I do agree still pictures are more of a gimmick, I think games and professional applications are more exciting.

 

 

Games are cool, but honestly, I would like to have a full color ANSI term emulator. A color update to Ice-T XE would be the supreme application for me.

 

Since this board will have a color map, would imagine people will look into making color text applications. It will be easy to use the 40 column mode (Antic 2). 80 columns will require you go to 4 pixel wide characters, I did read something that the board will color map down to 4 pixels wide. I always considered a between option of 5 or 6 pixel wide characters and ending up with 50 or 60 columns.

[+remowilliams]

I've read about it and it sounds like a very cool achievement, but honestly I'm not really that interested in it.

 

This is of course a rather arbitrary line, but stuff like this (for me) pushes beyond what it means for the computer to be an A8 to me. Don't get me wrong, I love functional upgrades (like my 32in1 OS ) but at a point enhancements start to fundamentally change what is at the core, with the core becoming just a backplane to service other things. I may have wanted my A8 to be an ST then, but I certainly don't want it to be one now.

 

I feel the same way about a lot of Falcon and Amiga addon stuff too. Anyway, just my own personal viewpoint - best of luck with the project.

[peteym5]

Alright, opinions on here are important, give people ideal about the market of the board and applications for it. I think if the board is too pricey and too few people make stuff for it, it will just crash.

 

My opinion about Atari when they made the origional Antic and GTIA chips, they froze further development on those ICs, just ordered millions of them and did not do anything further with the chip set. These chips could have easily had functions added and maintained backward compatibility, certainly had room for more registers. If IBM thought the same way about the PC, we will still have computers with CGA & monochrome displays. Probably one of the reasons why Commodore and Atari person computers lost out to the PC and Mac market.

[Bryan]

I've read about it and it sounds like a very cool achievement, but honestly I'm not really that interested in it.

 

This is of course a rather arbitrary line, but stuff like this (for me) pushes beyond what it means for the computer to be an A8 to me. Don't get me wrong, I love functional upgrades (like my 32in1 OS ) but at a point enhancements start to fundamentally change what is at the core, with the core becoming just a backplane to service other things. I may have wanted my A8 to be an ST then, but I certainly don't want it to be one now.

 

I feel the same way about a lot of Falcon and Amiga addon stuff too. Anyway, just my own personal viewpoint - best of luck with the project.

 

I've been reamed for saying things like this. I don't have any problem with upgrading an A8, but you can reach a point where it's not so retro anymore.

 

Still, the video board looks like a cool design.

[FastRobPlus]

Can it in any way help get the missing music into Ultima IV? Or can it let my 800 run 64/128k XE games? Those are the upgrades I really, really want.

[twh/f2]

I talked with Electron at the polish Glucholazy Party and wrote later this email to him:

 

Hey Electron,

 

I spent some thoughts again about your great work on the Video Board XE. There were a lot controversies about this upgrade. I understand people, who say that this upgrade is sort of "illegal" to the XL/XE platform, because of the natural "god-given" limitations of the computer.

 

however, many, many people were complaining in the past about the low video quality of the XL/XE. The best shot is to use s-video and a decent 15khz monitor with s-video support. however, the by far best picture which I've ever seen was with your RGB upgrade. I say by intense "RGB upgrade" rather then "Video Board" because this makes essentially more sense to upgrade the Atari with RGB than equipping it with a "sprite/graphics cheat device".

 

What I'm trying to say you is that there are probably a LOT more people interested in the RGB capabilities and it's fantastic crystal clear video output. I'm not sure, if all people out there understood that specific feature. I didn't and so I wasn't so much excited about the upgrade, until I met you and I saw the video board running.

 

if you would ask me, I would love to spent 100EUR or more, for a RGB upgraded Atari 8bit. And believe me, a lot more people in the world would love to as well!!

 

unfortunately I never got feedback by Electron. :-(

 

grtx,

\twh::taos

[carmel_andrews]

A nice 'doom' clone or 'quake 3' wouldn't go a miss...or a decent first person shooter (fps)

 

Alternatively 'certain' games converted from the amiga, namely Turrican trillogy, great giana sisters, project x (best miggy SEU) and Denaris/Katakis

 

Also near perfect Arcade ports (from mame) like outrun, bubble bobble, r-type, darius etc etc

[peteym5]

I talked with Electron at the polish Glucholazy Party and wrote later this email to him:

 

 

Hey Electron,

 

I spent some thoughts again about your great work on the Video Board XE. There were a lot controversies about this upgrade. I understand people, who say that this upgrade is sort of "illegal" to the XL/XE platform, because of the natural "god-given" limitations of the computer.

 

I do not see what would be illegal, the Atari technology patent is outdated, obsolete, and that Atari Entity that manufactured the computer no longer exists. I have watch the videos and the Atari is capable of driving this hardware.

 

however, many, many people were complaining in the past about the low video quality of the XL/XE. The best shot is to use s-video and a decent 15khz monitor with s-video support. however, the by far best picture which I've ever seen was with your RGB upgrade. I say by intense "RGB upgrade" rather then "Video Board" because this makes essentially more sense to upgrade the Atari with RGB than equipping it with a "sprite/graphics cheat device".

 

What I'm trying to say you is that there are probably a LOT more people interested in the RGB capabilities and it's fantastic crystal clear video output. I'm not sure, if all people out there understood that specific feature. I didn't and so I wasn't so much excited about the upgrade, until I met you and I saw the video board running.

 

OK, I know there are S-Video upgrades that improve the picture to the existing Atari Antic/GTIA chipset. This just about does the same as hooking up to an old Commodore 1702 monitor. You can even output to a RGB monitor, but you will still be using the existing Atari 8-bit Graphics at the same resolution. This Video Board XE will add more colors on screen at once at 320x192 or 160x192 resolution and that is important game developers to make their game look good. That is with 256 color sprites and a color mapped background.

 

if you would ask me, I would love to spent 100EUR or more, for a RGB upgraded Atari 8bit. And believe me, a lot more people in the world would love to as well!!

 

unfortunately I never got feedback by Electron. :-(

 

I may be willing to pay $100 US dollars for the upgrade. I would imagine there is going to a market in the United States for Atari Upgrades, I know a few people over here that still own Atari computers and would like to see something done with this card.

 

Now another thing I am looking have at least started is Video Board XE emulation upgrade on the Atari800Win plus. I have a copy of the board equates, and the source code from a few of the demos, already and attempted to translate them to English. From that, maybe someone can see how the board works.

[peteym5]

A nice 'doom' clone or 'quake 3' wouldn't go a miss...or a decent first person shooter (fps)

 

Alternatively 'certain' games converted from the amiga, namely Turrican trillogy, great giana sisters, project x (best miggy SEU) and Denaris/Katakis

 

Also near perfect Arcade ports (from mame) like outrun, bubble bobble, r-type, darius etc etc

 

Well 3D games will be more tricky since the Atari or this Videoboard XE does not have an equivalent 3D accelerator feature. I am not saying it is impossible, people have done some 3D stuff on the Atari before.

 

I would imagine many of your popular 2D arcade or Nintendo 8-bit games can now be ported. I would like to say it will bring the 8-bit up to above a Sega Master System or Nintendo 8-bit, but not to the level of a Sega Genesis or Super Nintendo.

 

Of course, you can get one of this 16bit CPU upgrades with this video board, then you can drive more elaborate graphics.

[Fres]

What incentive do these guys have to complete this project?

 

It's really cool from an academic standpoint, but I predict they will sell 3, if it ever sees completion, and perhaps one demo app will exploit the upgrade -- much like the many homebrew software projects out there (or the XEP80, for that matter).

 

I'm not faulting anyone for engaging in a project such as these, but I'm sure more will never see the light of day, than will be completed.

 

A couple of screenshots over the next several years, and maybe a barely playable release with really nice music and a cool title screen.

 

I agree, tho, that it's nice to imagine "what could be" ...

[peteym5]

I do agree that this projects status is yet unknown and I do not have any information about its status or when it will be completed. A demo for the upgrade would help promote it, a game, a few demos. However, for it to go anywhere, developers have to know how to write programs to drive the new chip. I would like to say a Super Mario Brothers or Sonic the Hedgehog type game (similar, but not a clone) would be a good start demo.

 

My personal prediction on sells is that less than 50 will be sold until a few homebrew games become available. It is not always the hardware the sells the product, it is what is available for it.

[deathtrappomegranate]

I don't have any problem with upgrading an A8, but you can reach a point where it's not so retro anymore.

 

Still, the video board looks like a cool design.

This is pretty much my perspective.

 

Although a project like this is interesting from a technical point of view, I would have no interest whatsoever in buying such a product.

 

If the year were 1984 or 1985, then this would be a very cool development; as it is, any software developed for it will be of no use to anyone who doesn't have the board, or who hasn't installed it. Such an "upgrade" would have the effect of changing the character of the machine. In effect, it would cease to be an Atari 8-bit computer, and it would become some horrible kind of hybrid.

 

If you want a mid-80s computer with better graphics, you might as well have an Amiga or ST. If you want 21st century technology, I hear that ATI and nVidia have some useful graphics hardware.

 

A8 computers are what they are; and, indeed, what they were. For me, this project makes no more sense than putting a modern laptop motherboard in a 65XE case. In fact, I think that it could possibly be harmful to the development of A8 software, if programmers decide to write code for the bastard machine rather than for the real thing.

[DamageX]

I would definitely consider buying one and developing something for it. I like shmups, turn-based strategy, and RPG.

 

Old computers are like old cars. People still love them but the fact remains, for various reasons, they will NEVER EVER be made the same way again. So when a real enthusiast comes along and manages to create some upgrade or replacement parts despite having very little to gain financially, then I support them.

[peteym5]

A turn based strategy game or RPG game would be good ideals. I have a favorite game that was on the Sega Genesis called Masters of Monsters and considered porting something onto the PC or back to the Atari. RPGs are also a great ideal and I have created a RPG maker on the PC using 3D graphics. However to stay on track here, maybe someone can design a RPG maker and games for the Atari 8-bit with the new hardware.

[twh/f2]

OK, I know there are S-Video upgrades that improve the picture to the existing Atari Antic/GTIA chipset. This just about does the same as hooking up to an old Commodore 1702 monitor. You can even output to a RGB monitor, but you will still be using the existing Atari 8-bit Graphics at the same resolution. This Video Board XE will add more colors on screen at once at 320x192 or 160x192 resolution and that is important game developers to make their game look good. That is with 256 color sprites and a color mapped background.

 

Pete,

 

what you are saying is wrong. There is NO WAY to operate a RGB monitor with the Atari 8bit hardware. It's only output is TV, Composite or S-Video. RGB is a very different approach to bring the picture on the screen. Just using a monitor which supports S-Video as well as RGB does not make my Atari produce a RGB picture.

 

The various S-Video upgrades you are talking about only improve the existing S-Video signal. But this does not make a RGB upgrade. If you have ever seen the difference between S-Video and RGB then you would know, what I'm talking about. This also does not require new ANTIC/GTIA video modes. I only want my games, demos and applications with a clear screen as I know it the Amiga or Atari ST. With the right adapters you even could double the 15khz RGB to 30 kHz which then would allow to operate even most up-to-date TFT screens.

 

Again, I'm not talking about converting an existing S-Video signal to RGB. The Video Board XE itself produces the RGB signals without any S-Video at all!! The result is perfect crips very sharp picture with absolutely zero artefacting!

 

grtx,

\twh::taos

[dwhyte]

hmmm... I'd be interested in one of them boards... for game programming I'd view it as a new atari platform. Sorta like nes-type processing power with snes-type-or-a-little-under graphic ability

[mimo]

If it can give RGB so we can use the Atari on a TFT screen, that would be of the most interest to me,

Price will be the deciding factor though

[peteym5]

OK, I know there are S-Video upgrades that improve the picture to the existing Atari Antic/GTIA chipset. This just about does the same as hooking up to an old Commodore 1702 monitor. You can even output to a RGB monitor, but you will still be using the existing Atari 8-bit Graphics at the same resolution. This Video Board XE will add more colors on screen at once at 320x192 or 160x192 resolution and that is important game developers to make their game look good. That is with 256 color sprites and a color mapped background.

 

Pete,

 

what you are saying is wrong. There is NO WAY to operate a RGB monitor with the Atari 8bit hardware. It's only output is TV, Composite or S-Video. RGB is a very different approach to bring the picture on the screen. Just using a monitor which supports S-Video as well as RGB does not make my Atari produce a RGB picture.

 

The various S-Video upgrades you are talking about only improve the existing S-Video signal. But this does not make a RGB upgrade. If you have ever seen the difference between S-Video and RGB then you would know, what I'm talking about. This also does not require new ANTIC/GTIA video modes. I only want my games, demos and applications with a clear screen as I know it the Amiga or Atari ST. With the right adapters you even could double the 15khz RGB to 30 kHz which then would allow to operate even most up-to-date TFT screens.

 

Again, I'm not talking about converting an existing S-Video signal to RGB. The Video Board XE itself produces the RGB signals without any S-Video at all!! The result is perfect crips very sharp picture with absolutely zero artefacting!

 

grtx,

\twh::taos

 

I am sorry about the confusion. I should have said someone making a new modification to output to a RGB monitor, but the Antic/GTIA chipset does not have such output. I believe S-Video or (Chroma/Luma) is adequate for existing 320x192 displays, I can easily see each pixel on my TV without any artifacting (XE computer or XL with s-video mod). I spliced a S-Video cable with two RCA female jacks that can be attached to the monitor cable from my Atari 130XE). I know videoboard XE also supports RGB output. Even with the modification, it should still be able to output to composite or s-video device (on a xe computer or an additional s-video mod on an XL).

 

Some old games took advantage of artifacting, but when you play them on computer that divides to chroma/luma signal to a display device, you see vertical lines where the colors once existed. Some were Apple II (which did color via artifacting) ports to Atari 8-bit. I personally never thought it was a great way to generate video.

Edited September 6, 2007 by peteym5

[MEtalGuy66]

Port Lightwave to the atari 8-bit.

[mos6507]

Ironically, hardware upgrades have been a lot more forthcoming than software projects that use them when it comes to the A8.

 

How many programs out there use something as simple as a 2nd Pokey? How many programs use banked memory for anything besides a RAMdisk?

 

The A8 is kind of like the Amiga in the sense that while you might be able to bolt on "better" graphics, the graphics subsystem is going to be inherently different in feel. The charm of those machines is the style of the hardware. Once you ditch that and go to a PC graphics card style architecture it really loses its appeal even if you can do more with it on paper.

[peteym5]

Ironically, hardware upgrades have been a lot more forthcoming than software projects that use them when it comes to the A8.

 

How many programs out there use something as simple as a 2nd Pokey? How many programs use banked memory for anything besides a RAMdisk?

 

The A8 is kind of like the Amiga in the sense that while you might be able to bolt on "better" graphics, the graphics subsystem is going to be inherently different in feel. The charm of those machines is the style of the hardware. Once you ditch that and go to a PC graphics card style architecture it really loses its appeal even if you can do more with it on paper.

 

I cannot say I disagree, I owned a 130XE since 1985 and see very little games than can take advantage of the 128k or more expanded memory. This is also very useful for side scrollers, RPGs, or adventure games, a 64k screen can be very large. One recently released game is Commando that uses a full 320k, I always like to see an Ikari Warriors clone on the 8bit and expanded ram is perfect for such games. Honestly I rarely used Ramdisk on the XE and never found it real exciting, once in awhile, I used it as temp area for copying files between disks.

 

I know duel Pokey is a cool upgrade, I even proposed taking it step further of a 3rd sound chip and can produce different wave form effects. Get something other than the low pitch square wave from the pokey.

 

Something else I like to see are games taking advantage of a 65816 cpu at 16 mhz. A few 16bit cpu upgrades have popped up, but what is really available for it. What would you do with a 65816, duel pokey, 1mb ram, and videoboard XE in an Atari computer? Of course this will no longer be an Atari computer and it comes of a question to just make something on your Windows PC with Super VGA graphics, 3+GHZ, gigs of Ram, etc. For any hardware to become useful and marketable, someone has to make something for it.

 

So far on this thread, looks like developers are the most likely get this upgrade first and a graphics upgrade will probably get more attention than anything else.

[Marius]

Upgrading memory is a whole different story.

 

And there are plenty programs using the extra memory. Especially demo's. But i'm a demo lover

 

It is said more in this topic, and it is my opinion too. It is very cool to add extra's to our so beloved atari's, but as soon as it changes the typical computer characteristics (is this a word?), it is not so interesting anymore.

 

I love the limitations. And I love to see how programmers make the best out of the limitations, and/or write cool and compact routines to bring the standard atari-hardware to a higher level.

 

Why do I love memory upgrade and extra OS? etc.

Well only to make programming easier. All the software I write runs on 64KB XL/XE, but programming on a expanded atari (loaded with extra memory and High Speed SIO OS's) are making life easier and faster ... to make a final result (a program) compatible on stock atari.

 

It is al opinion ofcourse. I do have ST, I do have Falcon, nice PC and Mac too, but the only computer I really like is my Atari 8bit. So I'd say: don't change the soul of the machine.

 

Marius