Brainstorming: Atari 2600 RPG

[vdub_bobby]

I have two possible big 2600 projects that I'd like to make progress on this year; one of them is an RPG.

 

I'd like to get some comments from you guys on what you'd like to see in a 2600 RPG. I'm not looking for super-technical ideas (though those are welcome ); I'm more looking for game design preferences/ideas/etc.

 

Example questions to consider:

-What kind of combat engine would you like to see?

-How long of a game would you like?

-Do you want something very open-ended or more linear?

-Acknowledging the tradeoffs necessary with the 2600, would you like a game with 500 different monsters and a 1000 items or a game with fewer enemies and fewer items but a ton of story (read: text)?

-What kind of experience system do you like?

 

And so on.

 

The idea here is that the platform is 30 years old, but there's no reason the game can't take advantage of all the RPG innovations of the last 20 years. As I'm not an RPG expert, I hope that the collective wisdom of you folks could fill in the blanks.

 

So, fire away.

[A Sprite]

What kind of combat engine would you like to see?

 

Can we ask for anything? My ideal is a Dragon Warrior style close up of the enemies, one on screen at a time, so that all of the VCS's limited resources are given to the graphic. Scrolling between the enemies could take place by pushing left or right, so that the player has to watch out for their blind spots - the idea is to turn a handicap in the hardware into a design feature...

 

 

How long of a game would you like?

 

How long of a game can you create without adding filler?

 

 

Do you want something very open-ended or more linear?

 

Linear. We know a Western style RPG can be done on the hardware. But can an Atari VCS programmer intentionally make a player laugh or cry? I'd love to see someone try.

 

 

Acknowledging the tradeoffs necessary with the 2600, would you like a game with 500 different monsters and a 1000 items or a game with fewer enemies and fewer items but a ton of story (read: text)?

 

See above. But can you write? No offense, but as a writer, most programmer attempts to add a plot are as painful to me as most writer attempts to code must be to you. 'A ton of text'? That's like me filling up a 64k cart with a single variation of "Super Breakout".

 

And it moves in slow motion.

 

With seizure inducing flicker.

 

What makes your story worth telling? If you can't find an answer, don't even attempt it.

 

 

 

What kind of experience system do you like?

 

One that gives me a reason to keep playing. An RPG lives or dies based on whether or not the rewards for leveling up are worth the work...

Edited January 2, 2008 by A Sprite

[Cybergoth]

-What kind of combat engine would you like to see?

 

I'm usually prefering turn based tactical combat over the Bard's Tale / Wizardry or "regular" FF style. One of my favourite combat engines is the one from the GBA Fire Emblem games.

 

A cool action style combat system like "Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga" might also be a fun idea for the VCS and is probably much more doable than the above

 

-How long of a game would you like?

 

I'd say 10+ hours.

 

-Do you want something very open-ended or more linear?

 

I prefer games having a linear path, but don't mind the casual subquest.

 

-Acknowledging the tradeoffs necessary with the 2600, would you like a game with 500 different monsters and a 1000 items or a game with fewer enemies and fewer items but a ton of story (read: text)?

 

I prefer following a good story over tons of RE battles and mindless level-up breaks. What I especially love in later (16-Bit era) RPGs is the kind of life your characters get. On the NES your party consists just of mindless liveless followers, but on the SNES/GBA they will come alive and talk to each other. Golden Sun is a brilliant example, close to the perfect 2D RPG experience IMO

 

-What kind of experience system do you like?

 

Hm... good question. Anything that does more than Zelda I'd say. Just collecting hearts and new weapons is too little. I like it when my characters gradually get stronger. It doesn't have to be as many stats as in Bard's Tale or SSI Gold Box games, but Attack/Defense/Magic values would be mandatory I think.

 

And so on.

 

I generally prefer a 2D map over a Phantasy Star 1 style 3D dungeon crawl. That is unless you find a way to do it as good as in Dungeon Master

 

So, fire away.

 

Realistically speaking a 2600 RPG will at best probably end being something like FF1, DW1 or Ultima 1, which would already be an incredible feature

 

Maybe have a look at Pauls work for the Homestar Runner RPG, I thought he did amazing things in regard of an RPG already.

[A Sprite]

On the NES your party consists just of mindless liveless followers

 

Not always. Dragon Warrior 4 was one happy exception to the rule. There are others; the trouble with porting that experience to 32-64k is worth a separate brainstorming thread.

 

Every word counts.

 

What words do we need?

 

When do we need them?

Edited January 2, 2008 by A Sprite

[Heaven/TQA]

as coding an action RPG now for 1,5 years on A8 and as a huge fan of RPG (played tons of them on any machine) its kind of a design question... on 2600 I can see a round based RPG as well one like similar to Swordquest, Diablo or Zelda like...

 

on A8 I went down the road of kind of Zelda, Rogue, etc... why? simply I wanted to learn how they managed in WoW & Diablo the tons of different items and I found out it's far more simpler then it looks from "gamers view". simple RNDs...

 

but i RAM is tight for such a project and so gameplay/design depends on the RAM usage...how many is available and what can be dedicated to monsters, map, inventory etc... so a more replayable game would be a nice fit... so

 

- several items which are dropped on a random basis

- random map/rooms

- random monsters

- action orientated gameplay (like archon combat screen f.e.)

 

as based on (predicted) randomness even a 2600 could create a variaty of gameplay with only few variables.

 

i think this could be nice addition for the 2600 as i believe it's a more action orientated console...

 

 

just my 2 cents.

[vdub_bobby]

Thanks for the responses.

 

A few comments/replies...

Can we ask for anything?

Yes. What you get...

My ideal is a Dragon Warrior style close up of the enemies

With seizure inducing flicker.

I generally prefer a 2D map over a Phantasy Star 1 style 3D dungeon crawl.

A few technical comments are in order, I suppose.

 

If I write an RPG, it will be targeted for the Supercharger. Why? Basically, I have the bones of a scrolling, tiled engine that I like, it has more RAM than is currently possible on anything else, and I like the unique challenge of the thing.

That engine does not flicker, though I might use flicker for sprites at some point. But the map tiles do not flicker.

It is a 2D overhead engine, so no 3D stuff.

 

More later.

[mos6507]

If I write an RPG, it will be targeted for the Supercharger. Why? Basically, I have the bones of a scrolling, tiled engine that I like, it has more RAM than is currently possible on anything else, and I like the unique challenge of the thing.

That engine does not flicker, though I might use flicker for sprites at some point. But the map tiles do not flicker.

It is a 2D overhead engine, so no 3D stuff.

 

More later.

 

Exciting!

[TROGDOR]

Check out Treasure of Tarmin for the Intellivision. I hated this game when I first got it (back in 1983), almost returned it, but after playing it a couple times, I was hooked. It has a lot of the features you're looking for, including a good variety of monsters, loot, randomized mazes, turn-based combat, etc. Considering that the Intellivision only had 160 bytes RAM, a similar game should be possible on the 2600. I'm not suggesting a port, but rather as an example of good RPG implementation on a first generation system.

 

Treasure of Tarmin is 3D. That's obviously not essential for an RPG, but it is impressive on first generation hardware.

 

The one part that was lacking was story line. But you can embellish that by using a large ROM footprint (at least 16k), to add storyline.

 

Paul's work, though incomplete, sets the gold standard for RPG on the 2600. Another superb example is DragonStomper.

Edited January 2, 2008 by TROGDOR

[kroogur]

What about us poor suckers who don't have a Supercharger?

[vdub_bobby]

What about us poor suckers who don't have a Supercharger?

Ebay!

 

 

And if the Chimera ever comes to fruition, you can always play it with that. Does the CC2 support SC games?

[Godzilla]

yes, indeed, something entirely like treasure of tarmin is possible on the 2600.

how do i know?

 

http://www.atariprotos.com/2600/software/t...ureoftarmin.htm

[mos6507]

What about us poor suckers who don't have a Supercharger?

 

Get a Chimera when it's released.

[+batari]

If I write an RPG, it will be targeted for the Supercharger. Why? Basically, I have the bones of a scrolling, tiled engine that I like, it has more RAM than is currently possible on anything else, and I like the unique challenge of the thing.

Yes, 6k of RAM is nice. But it's only 6k no matter if it's ROM or RAM. That's not so nice, as I found when doing some SC coding. I know you can multiload but that's nowhere near as useful as just having more space.

 

Maybe the SC would be good as a start though, and move on to the enhanced features of the Chimera when you inevitably find that 6k of space for both program and data just isn't enough.

[vdub_bobby]

Maybe the SC would be good as a start though, and move on to the enhanced features of the Chimera when you inevitably find that 6k of space for both program and data just isn't enough.

We'll see. I have two big projects that I'm trying to decide between; an RPG and another. So I might ditch the RPG as technically unfeasible, maybe.

 

But, really, there is *never* enough of something. This is the 2600 we're working with here. There either isn't enough RAM, or ROM, or sprites, or cycles, or...

 

That the whole fun of it.

Edited January 3, 2008 by vdub_bobby