Atari on a Breadboard

[UNIXcoffee928]

Has anyone ever re-built an Atari on a breadboard?

 

If we came up with a well-documented way of doing this efficiently, it might really open up future expansion for the platform.

[peteym5]

I had mentioned it several times last year as an alternative for all those upgrades and avoiding the computer ending up being a rats nest. Think it was in the (re)built New Atari Computer thread. Use one of those 512k chips for its ram, dual pokey, and a few other things.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Now, the question is, which system was laid out most efficiently?

 

We could use this as a layout model to begin designing a new layout, specifically for a breadboard.

[mos6507]

Now, the question is, which system was laid out most efficiently?

 

Probably the 130XE. It was where everything was cost reduced the most, and it had the first actually functional S-video since the 400/800.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Judging from photos, I'd say somewhere between the 130XE and the 600XL. I like the 800's slots, too... the expansion bus could run directly to slots like that.

 

Of course, since we are making it from scratch, we could just use those ideas, then make it more efficient for a breadboard. I was thinking that a 'plus sign'-like IC placement might be the shortest wire path... where the CPU & RAM are in the center, and the other ICs surround them in a 'plus sign shape', this way everything would be equidistant to the CPU & RAM. A variant would be a star shape, which would probably be best, since the bus could have a straight path.

 

What are your opinions on that?

 

Also, does anyone have a textfile of all of the components in the 130XE, and 600XL? If not we could take it from the schematics, but if it exists as a list already, that would be cool.

 

Best has a list of what they carry, a list could be subtractively sculpted from it pretty easilly.

[peteym5]

I would go for a 65816 CPU in the center interfacing with megs of ram on a 7.16 mhz bus. When ANTIC accesses it, it steps down to 1.79 mhz. Since we have the diagram for VBXE, maybe incorporate that into a new MB. What will happen to POKEY, GTIA, & PIA if you ran them on a high buss speed?

[UNIXcoffee928]

Insert joke about letting the magic smoke out, here.

 

= )

 

 

Ha.

 

Sounds good, but ultimately, Bob is the one to ask, since he knows exactly what 716 does & does not do.

 

The other thing is, the main reason the '(Re)Build an Atari 8-Bit' thread went severely every which way was that there are sooooooooo many cool things that could be done. The problem was that they do all cost money, and no one really wanted to settle on a design. That thread got pretty heated, too, everyone wanted to be right, so sometimes fabulous ideas were completely overlooked. On the other hand, it's a great record of brainstorming.

 

What I'm suggesting in this thread is this:

 

Let's build an existing system, component for component, on a breadboard.

 

This way, we'll have a goal. The goal is to have a working Atari 8-bit on a breadboard, laid out in an efficient, well documented, and standardized way. It's solderless & easy enough for any hobbyist with patience to attempt.

 

Once that goal is reached, we will then have a very viable platform for adding upgrades in a standard way. It can be thought of as a standard system that's easy to modify... something designed with experimentation in mind.

 

This way, every future upgrade is specified as an offset to the standard design. It would make it a lot easier to keep track of everything, instead of dealing with the nuances of all of the different models. It would be an Atari built from the ground up to facilitate ease of hacking. Additionally, since it is on a breadboard, anyone who wants to fabricate a printed circuit board could easily do so.

 

Once the the breadboard Atari exists, any upgrade project could be easily added in, by simply adding breadboards. No more wondering if this or that will clear the case, or cause heating problems, etc. Everything just laid out right in front of you for easy access & modification.

 

Granted that Be$t seems to be one of the only sources for ICs, aside from the ones that are common, or are common in Atari coin-op arcade equipment.

 

We would first need to put together a list of every component necessary. This would give us an idea of how much it would cost to build an Atari on a breadboard. Breadboards themselves can be obtained dirt cheap on ebay.

 

The 130XE obviously is the best model, however the 600XL seems to have the lowest component count. As far as I know, upgrades already exist to give a 600XL every feature of the 130XE (feel free to point out any that are not implemented).

 

So, to make this base system as inexpensive as possible to purchase, on a component-level, I assert that the 600XL would be the system to clone, then features could be added to it in a standardized way to bring it to 130XE-level & beyond.

 

Sound reasonable enough?

[Sub(Function(:))]

How much of the Atari design could be done with FPGA's?

 

Think an atari on a chip would be so cool

 

Seriously though there is a Team building a C64 with FPGA's. The board they are using is also able to run other systems as well, could not this be used for the Atari as well?

[mos6507]

How much of the Atari design could be done with FPGA's?

 

The whole thing, of course. The C=1 was supposed to support the Atari8 one day. IMHO, these debates run around in circles and never seem to amount to anything. IMHO, a case could be made to manufacture a drop in replacement motherboard that is "modernized". It would have most of the upgrades built in as well as optional sockets for things like an extra POKEY or PIA chip. That way people can just chuck their old motherboards and transplant the CPU and custom chips over to the new board. If someone can remanufacture the MIO, then someone could certainly do this.

[dwhyte]

When you say "breadboarding it". do you mean using the actual chips (pokey, antic, gtia) on the breadboard? Or breadboarding everything, much like the very first Amiga chipset?

[UNIXcoffee928]

Just the components. I've been putting together a component list and a very detailed textfile concerning the chipset. Got disturbed in the middle of it all due to the S-Drive Soap Opera thread.

 

The beauty of the concept behind having an Atari on a breadboard is that it can be a completely theoretical metaphor that describes a system of inter-related parts. Other than maybe a proof of concept one-off system, this system can exist entirely 'on paper', or can be built.

 

As described above, it just provides a sound basis for a standard. This way, all upgrades can also be described as an offset of that standards-based description.

 

The (Re)Build an Atari thread probably has at least a hundred different notions of how to take the next step. Anyone can peruse this thread for ideas about how they want their system to be, then just build it as an offset off of this "building block" system.

 

I'm going to spec this whole thing out based on the 600XL because it has the lowest component count. From there, all upgrades would be applied. So we don't have to call it "Atari on a Breadboard" or "Box of Spaghetti", etc. we'll call it The 600X. This title is short, keeps the Atari feel, is descriptive of its lineage, and sounds a lot more interesting & appealing than the curse words that you'll inevitably call it, while putting it together (ha).

 

So, that's that. I'm doing all of this groundwork to allow future stuff to come a lot more easily, and because it's a start. So many options were bandied about for a new system, but nothing happened. I'm just making something happen, and we'll see where it goes.

 

It would be really easy to say, "well, what's the point? its still a 600XL.", and this is true, however, it is now an infinitely configurable 600XL. Want an Atari on a PCI slotted card, or on a FPGA, or in a drive bay, or built into a LCD panel housing? You will now have the means to do so, since EVERY single component will be cataloged, its use described, and well documented in one handy reference point that has a user-base. This way, everybody gets what they want out of a new Atari system, and we can all marvel at the unique ideas that other users come up with. It should be a lot of fun.

 

I'm going to continue building the components list, and I'll post it when I'm finished. If someone has a 600XL, please take some very hi-res pics of it's board and post them (4 shots that we can stitch together would be ideal. Try to take the shots looking directly down on the board, with no angle.).

 

L8R.

[edward1469]

Count me in

Thanks

Ed

 

 

Just the components. I've been putting together a component list and a very detailed textfile concerning the chipset. Got disturbed in the middle of it all due to the S-Drive Soap Opera thread.

 

The beauty of the concept behind having an Atari on a breadboard is that it can be a completely theoretical metaphor that describes a system of inter-related parts. Other than maybe a proof of concept one-off system, this system can exist entirely 'on paper', or can be built.

 

As described above, it just provides a sound basis for a standard. This way, all upgrades can also be described as an offset of that standards-based description.

 

The (Re)Build an Atari thread probably has at least a hundred different notions of how to take the next step. Anyone can peruse this thread for ideas about how they want their system to be, then just build it as an offset off of this "building block" system.

 

I'm going to spec this whole thing out based on the 600XL because it has the lowest component count. From there, all upgrades would be applied. So we don't have to call it "Atari on a Breadboard" or "Box of Spaghetti", etc. we'll call it The 600X. This title is short, keeps the Atari feel, is descriptive of its lineage, and sounds a lot more interesting & appealing than the curse words that you'll inevitably call it, while putting it together (ha).

 

So, that's that. I'm doing all of this groundwork to allow future stuff to come a lot more easily, and because it's a start. So many options were bandied about for a new system, but nothing happened. I'm just making something happen, and we'll see where it goes.

 

It would be really easy to say, "well, what's the point? its still a 600XL.", and this is true, however, it is now an infinitely configurable 600XL. Want an Atari on a PCI slotted card, or on a FPGA, or in a drive bay, or built into a LCD panel housing? You will now have the means to do so, since EVERY single component will be cataloged, its use described, and well documented in one handy reference point that has a user-base. This way, everybody gets what they want out of a new Atari system, and we can all marvel at the unique ideas that other users come up with. It should be a lot of fun.

 

I'm going to continue building the components list, and I'll post it when I'm finished. If someone has a 600XL, please take some very hi-res pics of it's board and post them (4 shots that we can stitch together would be ideal. Try to take the shots looking directly down on the board, with no angle.).

 

L8R.

[edward1469]

Count me in

Thanks

Ed

 

 

Just the components. I've been putting together a component list and a very detailed textfile concerning the chipset. Got disturbed in the middle of it all due to the S-Drive Soap Opera thread.

 

The beauty of the concept behind having an Atari on a breadboard is that it can be a completely theoretical metaphor that describes a system of inter-related parts. Other than maybe a proof of concept one-off system, this system can exist entirely 'on paper', or can be built.

 

As described above, it just provides a sound basis for a standard. This way, all upgrades can also be described as an offset of that standards-based description.

 

The (Re)Build an Atari thread probably has at least a hundred different notions of how to take the next step. Anyone can peruse this thread for ideas about how they want their system to be, then just build it as an offset off of this "building block" system.

 

I'm going to spec this whole thing out based on the 600XL because it has the lowest component count. From there, all upgrades would be applied. So we don't have to call it "Atari on a Breadboard" or "Box of Spaghetti", etc. we'll call it The 600X. This title is short, keeps the Atari feel, is descriptive of its lineage, and sounds a lot more interesting & appealing than the curse words that you'll inevitably call it, while putting it together (ha).

 

So, that's that. I'm doing all of this groundwork to allow future stuff to come a lot more easily, and because it's a start. So many options were bandied about for a new system, but nothing happened. I'm just making something happen, and we'll see where it goes.

 

It would be really easy to say, "well, what's the point? its still a 600XL.", and this is true, however, it is now an infinitely configurable 600XL. Want an Atari on a PCI slotted card, or on a FPGA, or in a drive bay, or built into a LCD panel housing? You will now have the means to do so, since EVERY single component will be cataloged, its use described, and well documented in one handy reference point that has a user-base. This way, everybody gets what they want out of a new Atari system, and we can all marvel at the unique ideas that other users come up with. It should be a lot of fun.

 

I'm going to continue building the components list, and I'll post it when I'm finished. If someone has a 600XL, please take some very hi-res pics of it's board and post them (4 shots that we can stitch together would be ideal. Try to take the shots looking directly down on the board, with no angle.).

 

L8R.

[+bf2k+]

...

 

I'm going to continue building the components list, and I'll post it when I'm finished. If someone has a 600XL, please take some very hi-res pics of it's board and post them (4 shots that we can stitch together would be ideal. Try to take the shots looking directly down on the board, with no angle.).

 

L8R.

 

I have a brand new boxed 600XL. Will get it out of storage tonight and take some hi-rez pix for you.

[frogstar_robot]

The other thing is, the main reason the '(Re)Build an Atari 8-Bit' thread went severely every which way was that there are sooooooooo many cool things that could be done. The problem was that they do all cost money, and no one really wanted to settle on a design. That thread got pretty heated, too, everyone wanted to be right, so sometimes fabulous ideas were completely overlooked. On the other hand, it's a great record of brainstorming.

 

VBXE and the 7.16 Mhz 65816 upgrades have the virtue of actually existing. Both will also have the virtue of being publicly documented. Bob indicates in the VBXE thread that getting both physically installed would be a challenge and there may be a small amount of clock signal work to get them to play together nice. Since the installation of either results in a machine that is a superset of the A8, it makes more sense to me if they were combined into one upgrade. That way we only have one common superset of the A8 rather than three: 7.16 Mhz, VBXE, VBXE+7.16Mhz (separates). It also alleviates the problems that may exist with physically plugging both in. I'm also of the opinion that the 7.16 65816 is a better impedance match for the VBXE capabilities than the stock 1.79 Mhz 6502.

 

In any case if an A8 is breadboarded from scratch then ample physical room can be left to explore these possibilities. This is a "New Atari" that has a shot at being reality.

[Retro Rogue]

600xl shematics

800 schematics

130 XE schematics

[Tezz]

.....That way we only have one common superset of the A8 rather than three: 7.16 Mhz, VBXE, VBXE+7.16Mhz (separates).

I agree too that this is an ideal solution to deal with these latest major hardware extensions. It would then create a new expansion standard with which hobbyists and developers alike can work within. Breadboarding a system down to component level succesfully would not be easy to achieve. Best of luck to you if you undertake it.

[UNIXcoffee928]

I have a brand new boxed 600XL. Will get it out of storage tonight and take some hi-rez pix for you.

Hey, great, thanks man! If you could do the same for the bottom-side of the PCB, too, that would be very helpful as well.

 

In the mean-time, I was working against a low-res image of the 600XL, counting components (see attached image). These are just generalized groupings, to get us started here... that way we'll have an accurate component count. Can someone volunteer their time to total up the yellow numbers? I'd do it, but it would be easier for two people to read them out then write them down. Thanks!

 

This will be our preliminary count, just to get people psyched, for the meantime, and so we have an inkling of how many parts there are.. I'm going to post a full detailed component count based on Jerzy's schematics. I would like to have the hi-res images to check against what's in the schematics, though, since they aren't official Atari schematics. With a high-res image we'll be able to check resistor values, and all info off of the tops of ICs.

 

The chipset textfile is coming along nicely, it will be a very handy reference in one doc.

 

Thanks to everyone for all of the positive notes & enthusiasm!

[UNIXcoffee928]

OK, I stitched together all of the schematics for the 600XL into one big image, so that we can see what we're working with a bit more effectively. This works nicely when opened in another tab, and is very easy to scroll & to Zoom to any level, if you have the Zoom Magnifier plugin for your Mozilla-based browser.

All_in_one_600XL_schematics.bmp

Edited November 4, 2008 by UNIXcoffee928

[edward1469]

Cute,

Not quite what I was expecting

I have a set of Atari Generated 1400 or 1450 XL Schematics I can scan over the next few days

if anyone would like, I also feel the best way would be since slots aren't standard on an 8-bit

we should come up with a standardized design, i.e. multiple boards such as i/o that can be replaced and upgraded as well as analog portions that wouldn't change like keyboard power supply and ports then a CPU / and Ram/ROM sections

it makes for a more complex design but allows for the most efficient upgrade path as instead of replacing the entire board you only have to replace one smaller section as upgrades are designed esp if there is some common bus between the different boards

just my .02 cents

Ed

 

 

OK, I stitched together all of the schematics for the 600XL into one big image, so that we can see what we're working with a bit more effectively. This works nicely when opened in another tab, and is very easy to scroll & to Zoom to any level, if you have the Zoom Magnifier plugin for your Mozilla-based browser.

[edward1469]

Would these spec's appeal as genlocked video thru the Standard Composite port in addition to standard Atari modes

you would have:

 

 

Sprite Engine

 

32 Sprites on screen ( for now!

16 Colours per Sprite each with it's own 16 Colour Palette

Sprites can be 8, 16, 24 or 32 pixels wide and any height.

Flippable in both X and Y

 

Screen Modes

 

256 * 192, 16 Colour Bitmap

256 * 224, 16 Colour Bitmap

128 * 96, 256 Colour Bitmap

128 * 96, 32768 Colour Bitmap

DXT1 16Bit Real Time Decompression

 

Each bitmap mode can be reduced by 8 pixels in X, Y or X & Y for smooth scrolling

 

Character Map mode - 16 Colour per Character, 16 Palettes per Screen & 768 Characters per Screen

Characters are flippable in both X and Y

 

Movie Player Mode - 120 * 96, 256 Colour, 25 FPS (each frame can have it's own 256 colour palette)

 

Also in the pipeline is a 4 Bit character mode, with 4 Bit character overlay.....

 

All modes are switchable on the fly with software switches

[Laemeur]

That's a great little machine you've spec'd out, there.

 

Totally irrelevant to the thread, but it's a great little machine.

[Christos]

Why would anyone want to put an atari in a c64 case?

[edward1469]

Who said anything about a C64 Case

Were talking A new Board for the 600X(L)

not as a money making venture but just as a project

Ed

Who knows if we get enough interest i.e. Several thousand we might have a product ROFL

 

 

 

Why would anyone want to put an atari in a c64 case?

[Christos]

Who said anything about a C64 Case

Were talking A new Board for the 600X(L)

not as a money making venture but just as a project

Ed

Who knows if we get enough interest i.e. Several thousand we might have a product ROFL

 

 

 

Why would anyone want to put an atari in a c64 case?

 

Wordplay on the thread title.

But seriously, I would be interested, especially if we are talking about a smaller form factor...

Edited November 4, 2008 by Christos