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jrok

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(*I really didn't know whether this was the proper place to post this, but none of the other forums seemed to quite fit.)

 

I've been experimenting with 2600 sprite graphics for the last couple of months, and yesterday I decided to try to see how "realistic" a depiction of human figures I could achieve working from scratch. So far it's been pretty fun (if painstaking), although I'm not sure if any of these experiments will ever be useful for games.

 

Anyway, the first challenge I set out for myself was to try to animate a figure turning 360 degrees in 36 frames. The camera angle here is straight-on (perpendicular to the model). The animation is composed of an adjacent P0 and P1 that progress through 18 frames. The model is symetrical, so at frame 19, the sprites swap positions and flip reflection properties to complete the remaining 18 frames of the movement. Only the top two-thirds of the figure is visible now, so I think the next step for this binary would be to complete the figure's legs, and add some user control to the direction and velocity of the turning movement.

 

Although feedback would be much appreciated, the other reason I started this thread is because I noticed that - while there are some really spectacular artists here - there doesn't seem to be a forum dedicated to the topic of retro graphics in particular. Like a lot of people here, I'm mainly drawn to classic gaming by the notion that gameplay, not graphics, is king. But, also like a lot of people here, I really like seeing graphic artists and animators challenge themsleves with the limited tools of older hardware. It would be nice to have a place at AA for 8-bit animators and graphic designers to showcase their stuff, share ideas and talk about techniques, tools, etc.

 

Cheers,

Jarod.

 

Important: Although there's nothing pornographic or explicit about the attached animation, I suppose that the figure is technically a "nude." So, if that sort of thing bothers you, please don't download the binary.

 

EDT: I think the illusion works better at a higher framerate

 

FHuman_360_v1.bin

Edited by jrok
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Hey! Somebody sanded off her nipples!

 

It must've been the same bastard that painted her hair the same color as her skin.

 

But, seriously I considered putting, you know, details in this experiment, but I was sort of worried it might be taken the wrong way. This is more about trying to simulate the movement, really.

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Okay, I finished the figure. Shes got legs, but she doesn't know how to use them. :roll:

 

Seriously, I am trying to keep this a 4k, 18/36 frame animation, but as it stands I had to cut back to 17/34 frames for the time being. If I have any chance of getting this the full 18 frames to fit in one bank, I think I might need to make her shorter.

 

FHumanFull_360_17f.bas.bin

 

Cheers,

Jarod.

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I think this is really terrific. I would love to see these kinds of techniques show up more often in games, for things like title screens, character selection screens, and (especially) ending sequences. I mean, it's pushing the hardware, it's obviously been executed by someone with aptitude for the visual arts, and it's a shapely and naked woman: what more could one want, really?

 

Would it be possible to display decent-looking text underneath her? How about toggling quickly (via the joystick) between several of these kinds of rotating figures, for a character selection screen?

Edited by thegoldenband
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I think this is really terrific. I would love to see these kinds of techniques show up more often in games, for things like title screens, character selection screens, and (especially) ending sequences. I mean, it's pushing the hardware, it's obviously been executed by someone with aptitude for the visual arts, and it's a shapely and naked woman: what more could one want, really?

 

Thanks!

 

Would it be possible to display decent-looking text underneath her? How about toggling quickly (via the joystick) between several of these kinds of rotating figures, for a character selection screen?

 

The text is no problem. I would probably use the score graphics. As for several characters, I guess it depends on what "several" means. I suppose you could get two different figures in there at 30z, but there wouldn't be room for much else. Even the 17-frame version I posted gobbles up almost an entire 4k bank.

 

I just made a 9-frame version of this animation that *might* be suitable for use in a bankswitched game, although I'm a little foggy on what kind of a game can be made with a character whose arms are basically glued to her sides.

 

Sun-Tan Simulator? Riverdance-Dance-Revolution?

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I wasn't thinking so much of simultaneously displaying two or more rotating figures -- just toggling between them, for a character selection screen. The NES game Little Samson starts out with something a bit like this, though it's separated into four distinct rows.

 

In general I think the 2600 could use more titles with strongly differentiated characters with differing abilities, as in Little Samson, Super Mario 2 (US), Lost Vikings, et al. Multi-player simultaneous games benefit, too, because an additional layer of strategy is involved. Even if the actual player graphics are much simpler, seeing them presented with a bit more flourish is still a nice touch, and helps to convey a sense of depth and characterization.

 

For instance, sticking strictly with what you've got, I could imagine using that graphic at the start of a game where you were equipping an android character (hence the nudity). Say, two of each gender, each with their own abilities, or strengths/weaknesses: one might be short, but quick; one might be stocky, but strong. Seeing it depicted in quasi-3-D gives it a certain verisimilitude, and makes it intuitive, too, since you can probably guess that the tall, stocky one will be powerful but slow, a la Abobo. By using a figure in motion, you can convey more detail than in a single frame, and help to make it seem like the resolution is higher than it actually is. And if all four figures are variations on a similar theme, maybe you can fit four rotations in two 4k banks?

 

Anyway, just riffin'.

Edited by thegoldenband
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I wasn't thinking so much of simultaneously displaying two or more rotating figures -- just toggling between them, for a character selection screen. The NES game Little Samson starts out with something a bit like this, though it's separated into four distinct rows.

 

I think I get what you are saying. A rough display could be cobbled together using the score objects and the playfield graphics, so certainly this would be possible - although the cost in ROM would be be intense for something that is virtual to gameplay. I've been looking into ways to store player shape tables in the SARA RAM instead, which could open up a lot of graphical opportunities... if it were possible.

 

In general I think the 2600 could use more titles with strongly differentiated characters with differing abilities, as in Little Samson, Super Mario 2 (US), Lost Vikings, et al. Multi-player simultaneous games benefit, too, because an additional layer of strategy is involved. Even if the actual player graphics are much simpler, seeing them presented with a bit more flourish is still a nice touch, and helps to convey a sense of depth and characterization.

 

I guess I tried to start a thread about graphics because it's the last thing folks think about when they think of the 2600. I vividly remember those CV and IV commercials from when I was a kid - even before our family had a 2600 - that would tout "better graphics." But as I get older, it occurs to me that better graphical "capability" doesn't always equal better graphical "sensibility." Graphic experiments will probably seem absolutely insipid and beside the point to a lot of AA programmers, but I am curious how much of the grpahical limitations of 2600 were due to hardware limitations as opposed to limitations of imagination or the imposed restrictions of the business model.

 

By using a figure in motion, you can convey more detail than in a single frame, and help to make it seem like the resolution is higher than it actually is. And if all four figures are variations on a similar theme, maybe you can fit four rotations in two 4k banks?

 

I agree, but I think "can" is the operative word there. I think it is possible, but then the question becomes whether it's desirable, and what you would have to give up. The 9/18 interactive frame loop I've attached here consumes 2500 bytes, which, while massive, still renders the illusion fairly well. If they were going to consume that much space for this animation,most programmers would want it to be at least be constant, if not vital, to gameplay. A walking cycle for one of 9 possible facing directions would be impossible to pull off in 4k ROM, while some sort of rails movement (surfboard?) might be doable. I guess it's all about decisions, which is proabaly why most programmers leave graphics and polish for the end of development.

 

Thanks for the input!

 

Cheers,

Jarod.

 

FHuman_360_9f_interactive.bin

 

(Joystick Left and Right to turn character)

Edited by jrok
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I think I get what you are saying. A rough display could be cobbled together using the score objects and the playfield graphics, so certainly this would be possible - although the cost in ROM would be be intense for something that is virtual to gameplay.

Really, something as simple as a character name underneath would do the trick.

 

But as I get older, it occurs to me that better graphical "capability" doesn't always equal better graphical "sensibility." Graphic experiments will probably seem absolutely insipid and beside the point to a lot of AA programmers, but I am curious how much of the grpahical limitations of 2600 were due to hardware limitations as opposed to limitations of imagination or the imposed restrictions of the business model.

I don't think most people would find anything insipid about the sort of work you've shown here! It's a testament to how much a good visual sense can both embrace and transcend the limitations of a platform. One great example of that is the (sadly unfinished) game Man Goes Down. It's completely a 2600 game, and yet it looks fantastic, because it's visually well-conceived and uses the hardware to its best advantage. (Plus the gameplay kicks ass.) I find a game like that much more visually rewarding than many a Colecovision or NES game that pushes a lot more colors or sprites, but looks like a mess.

 

It's a little bit analogous to jazz. A soloist who can unleash endless torrents of notes can be exciting, but in the long run it doesn't wear well unless there's taste and depth to back it up. Similarly, it's a lot easier to play fast on the piano than it is on the trumpet, but a fast trumpet solo sounds exciting partly because you can hear the resistance of the instrument, and hear the musician simultaneously engaging with, and transcending that. You don't get the same effect on a synthesizer, because there's not as much resistance there.

 

So I love these sorts of feats on the 2600, as long as they look good and are tastefully done, partly because it's inherently exciting: even if you don't know the precise technical details of the platform, you can tell that it's being pushed beyond the usual. I feel the same way about some of the musical experiments on the 2600 that have shown up in the last 10 years -- there are some really whizbang demos out there, but it's the ones that are both virtuosic and good tunes that stick with me. On the music side of things (which is my specialty), I feel like, now that we know how to create the illusion of three or four different channels of sound, and have bass and drums and chords rather than just beeps and boops, there's no reason not to take advantage of that -- except in those situations where simplicity is what's called for. (The music to "Go Fish" is just right, for example.)

 

I think "can" is the operative word there. I think it is possible, but then the question becomes whether it's desirable, and what you would have to give up...I guess it's all about decisions, which is proabaly why most programmers leave graphics and polish for the end of development.

Understood. Still, I think that it could be used as a springboard to something really cool -- it just frames a game completely differently when you start or end with something like this, and if a game would otherwise fit in 24k of 32k, it might be worth using an extra 8k for this kind of polished effect. Gameplay is the foundation of everything, but a little flash and polish from a graphic designer is a great thing, especially at the beginning and/or end of a game, where it's about attracting or rewarding the player.

Edited by thegoldenband
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It's a little bit analogous to jazz. A soloist who can unleash endless torrents of notes can be exciting, but in the long run it doesn't wear well unless there's taste and depth to back it up. Similarly, it's a lot easier to play fast on the piano than it is on the trumpet, but a fast trumpet solo sounds exciting partly because you can hear the resistance of the instrument, and hear the musician simultaneously engaging with, and transcending that. You don't get the same effect on a synthesizer, because there's not as much resistance there.

Nice analogy. I'm likely to use it in the future.

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Okay, I finished the figure. Shes got legs, but she doesn't know how to use them. :roll:

 

Spread? :D

 

How about making something like Sex Games for the Commodore 64? You must jiggle the joystick in synch to make two people have sex.

 

And sum tekkno music for it. :music: Yuuppeeeeaaaaa!!!

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Okay, I finished the figure. Shes got legs, but she doesn't know how to use them. :roll:

 

Spread? :D

 

How about making something like Sex Games for the Commodore 64? You must jiggle the joystick in synch to make two people have sex.

 

And sum tekkno music for it. :music: Yuuppeeeeaaaaa!!!

 

LOL. Okay, I'm beginning to think now that it was a mistake to make this a "nude study." I better draw some clothes on this girl right quick... the vultures are circling :)

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