CV Gus and the 5200.

[CV Gus]

Apparently, this post is needed.

 

Lately, I've had a number of people whining about how I "don't like" Atari (esp. the 5200) and am a CV fanatic. Enough already.

 

As I've posted before, and will do so here again, I first obtained a 5200 back in 1998, from a townwide garage sale. It came with a number of games, and even instruction booklets. Problem was, it didn't work- the plugs were mostly broken, esp. Player 1 (which is vital for a 5200), and the switchbox was broken.

 

This was back in 1998. What technical skill I have now I did not have back then. In spite of this, soldering and desoldering, cleaning and dusting, as best I could then, I managed, after many hours of effort, finally, when I tried the controller in port #1-

 

"THE HUMANOID MUST NOT ESCAPE"

 

It was victory.

 

Question: Does someone who hates the 5200 go through all of that trouble to get it running?

 

 

Yes, I've complained about the crummy 5200 controllers- as did 99% of people back in the day, if the letters and reviews in the magazines back then were any indication. So- what did I do? FROM SCRATCH, using old junk and the greater know-how I now have, BUILT A WORKING 5200 DIGITAL CONTROLLER!!!

 

ANNNNND...I even posted text and diagrams right here at this website, so anyone else can build one, too.

 

Not to mention a real paddle controller- for just two games, Super Breakout and Pole Position- two games- so I can play them better.

A lightgun, even though no lightgun games exist (hopefully, that won't be true much longer?).

 

AND- the niftiest thing yet, not one but TWO adapters to allow use of standard 9-pin controllers on a 5200. One (passive) only allows the use of "good" contact controllers like the 7800 pro-line, while the other (battery) allows the use of almost any 9-pin.

 

I have always conceded that for exotic controllers, the 5200 wins out, and it is easier to convert analog to digital rather than the other way around- which means the 5200 scores.

 

I bought Blueprint for the 5200 last year.

 

Right now, hooked up to the television is...the CV AND the 5200 (that switchbox allows both systems plus the digital converter box).

 

I happen to own a 2600, a 5200, a 7800, an NES, and a CV- yet, the two systems readily hooked up include a 5200.

 

So- what does all of this mean?

 

I REALLY LIKE THE FRIGGIN` 5200! Better than the 2600, the 7800, and the NES. And even the GBC.

 

Just because I may like the CV better DOES NOT mean that I don't like the 5200.

 

But I will not allow the likes of anyone here to tell me not to mention that the 5200 was outsold by the CV, or that the CV controllers themselves were better than the 5200 ones. The latter most people agreed with, even if they didn't like the CV ones (games digital, CV controllers digital, plus the 9-pin factor). The former is documented fact, and when it is relevant, I will mention it.

 

I also said that the NES pounded the 7800. Since you now know that I own one, since 2000, does that make me a CV fanatic, or an NES fanatic?

 

 

In my generations post, the CV outselling the 5200 was relevant, because nothing outsold the 2600- therefore, the 5200 did not do as well as the 2600. That was relevant to "diminishing generations." If that offended, then why not my statement that the NES pounded the 7800? Why doesn't that ever get me into hot water here?

 

So, in conclusion-

 

I LIKE MY 5200, AND ALWAYS WILL!

 

Why not visit the Digital Press, and read my review for 5200 Qix, and the CV Space Fury? If that doesn't settle it, then I give up.

 

Have a nice day- or night, depending on your time zone.

Edited July 13, 2009 by CV Gus

[frogstar_robot]

But I will not allow the likes of anyone here to tell me not to mention that the 5200 was outsold by the CV, or that the CV controllers themselves were better than the 5200 ones. The latter most people agreed with, even if they didn't like the CV ones (games digital, CV controllers digital, plus the 9-pin factor). The former is documented fact, and when it is relevant, I will mention it.

 

I will grant that the CV controllers are much more reliable than 5200 controllers but that is it. When I played CV at friend's houses, I found them literally painful to use after awhile. If I ever own one project the first will be modifying the controller so I can plug something less stiff in and still use the keypad, a Slik-Stik perhaps. They hurt then and would damn near kill me now.

 

On the other hand, I do have happy memories of puttering around with my buddy's ADAM and we both loved Super Buck Rogers Planet Of Doom.

[RangerG]

CV Gus,

 

I think it comes down to the fact that even when you post a pro-5200 post, you throw in little digs like:

 

Yes, I've complained about the crummy 5200 controllers- as did 99% of people back in the day

 

 

This is simply not true. Some people complained and magazines did eventually pick up on it, but surely 99% didn't. In fact, I loved the 5200 as a kid and had no idea that the controllers were an issue until I got into retrogaming.

 

 

or that the CV controllers themselves were better than the 5200 ones.

 

Again, better is an opinion this is not a fact.

[atarian63]

Apparently, this post is needed.

 

Lately, I've had a number of people whining about how I "don't like" Atari (esp. the 5200) and am a CV fanatic. Enough already.

 

As I've posted before, and will do so here again, I first obtained a 5200 back in 1998, from a townwide garage sale. It came with a number of games, and even instruction booklets. Problem was, it didn't work- the plugs were mostly broken, esp. Player 1 (which is vital for a 5200), and the switchbox was broken.

 

This was back in 1998. What technical skill I have now I did not have back then. In spite of this, soldering and desoldering, cleaning and dusting, as best I could then, I managed, after many hours of effort, finally, when I tried the controller in port #1-

 

"THE HUMANOID MUST NOT ESCAPE"

 

It was victory.

 

Question: Does someone who hates the 5200 go through all of that trouble to get it running?

 

 

Yes, I've complained about the crummy 5200 controllers- as did 99% of people back in the day, if the letters and reviews in the magazines back then were any indication. So- what did I do? FROM SCRATCH, using old junk and the greater know-how I now have, BUILT A WORKING 5200 DIGITAL CONTROLLER!!!

 

ANNNNND...I even posted text and diagrams right here at this website, so anyone else can build one, too.

 

Not to mention a real paddle controller- for just two games, Super Breakout and Pole Position- two games- so I can play them better.

A lightgun, even though no lightgun games exist (hopefully, that won't be true much longer?).

 

AND- the niftiest thing yet, not one but TWO adapters to allow use of standard 9-pin controllers on a 5200. One (passive) only allows the use of "good" contact controllers like the 7800 pro-line, while the other (battery) allows the use of almost any 9-pin.

 

I have always conceded that for exotic controllers, the 5200 wins out, and it is easier to convert analog to digital rather than the other way around- which means the 5200 scores.

 

I bought Blueprint for the 5200 last year.

 

Right now, hooked up to the television is...the CV AND the 5200 (that switchbox allows both systems plus the digital converter box).

 

I happen to own a 2600, a 5200, a 7800, an NES, and a CV- yet, the two systems readily hooked up include a 5200.

 

So- what does all of this mean?

 

I REALLY LIKE THE FRIGGIN` 5200! Better than the 2600, the 7800, and the NES. And even the GBC.

 

Just because I may like the CV better DOES NOT mean that I don't like the 5200.

 

But I will not allow the likes of anyone here to tell me not to mention that the 5200 was outsold by the CV, or that the CV controllers themselves were better than the 5200 ones. The latter most people agreed with, even if they didn't like the CV ones (games digital, CV controllers digital, plus the 9-pin factor). The former is documented fact, and when it is relevant, I will mention it.

 

I also said that the NES pounded the 7800. Since you now know that I own one, since 2000, does that make me a CV fanatic, or an NES fanatic?

 

 

In my generations post, the CV outselling the 5200 was relevant, because nothing outsold the 2600- therefore, the 5200 did not do as well as the 2600. That was relevant to "diminishing generations." If that offended, then why not my statement that the NES pounded the 7800? Why doesn't that ever get me into hot water here?

 

So, in conclusion-

 

I LIKE MY 5200, AND ALWAYS WILL!

 

Why not visit the Digital Press, and read my review for 5200 Qix, and the CV Space Fury? If that doesn't settle it, then I give up.

 

Have a nice day- or night, depending on your time zone.

Nice work! I had no idea!

[VectorGamer]

I'm not buying any of this - you are a CV bigot!

 

I doubt you would be able to post photographic evidence of yourself playing a 5200 without a surgical mask and gloves on!!!

 

 

 

I haven't played my 5200 in 2 months. The CV kicks butt!

[+Allan]

Whether you like it or not is only up to you (but I am glad that you do.) That is your own opinion and you are entitled to it.(and I will defend your right to your opinion.) The thing that I don't like is when people make statements that are either a.) not true or b.) not verifiable. Why? Because when people who know little about these systems come on Atariage to learn about them they get conflicting information about them.

 

As far as what I like. I love the Colecovision. Granted not as much as the 5200 but I still love it. I like the Colecovision better than the 2600.

 

But again, this is just my opinion. Which is different than something that is a fact or not.

 

The great thing about sites like Atariage is not only do we get to read many peoples opinions about classic game systems and computers, but also learn about classic game systems and classic computers. The first group is of course going to have as many different answers as there are people. The second one should only have one answer for each fact. Otherwise it should be noted that it is just speculation.

 

Allan

[jetset]

CV Gus,

 

I think it comes down to the fact that even when you post a pro-5200 post, you throw in little digs like:

 

Yes, I've complained about the crummy 5200 controllers- as did 99% of people back in the day

 

 

This is simply not true. Some people complained and magazines did eventually pick up on it, but surely 99% didn't. In fact, I loved the 5200 as a kid and had no idea that the controllers were an issue until I got into retrogaming.

 

 

or that the CV controllers themselves were better than the 5200 ones.

 

Again, better is an opinion this is not a fact.

 

Agreed. You can't tell me 99% of 5200 owners sucked so bad at video-gaming they didn't adapt to the controllers. I've always said the same thing. Other than the reliability issue of the fire button, I never heard of anybody NOT liking the 5200's controllers, not until I joined AA. Did those people exist? Sure plenty of people had a 5200 and just weren't good enough at gaming to adapt with a little practice.

And the CV controllers being better? That's a ridiculous statement. They both have issues and neither are perfect. Prefer one over the other sure, ok. I wonder if we had a poll which would come out on top. I hated the CV controllers at first. What retard decided to put independent fire buttons on opposite sides of the controller? But...after a while I got better at games like Cosmic Avenger. All it took was a little practice. Some people either don't have the patience, or just aren't cut out to play.

[+thegoldenband]

I think it's insulting to claim that people who had a problem with the 5200's controllers "sucked so bad" at videogames. The controllers on my 5200, bought for Christmas 1983 (IIRC), were practically broken out of the box. Above all, the fire buttons on both controllers were incredibly stiff, and within weeks became basically unplayable.

 

My folks were anything but rich, and had to stretch their budget to get a 5200, so it was a very disheartening experience all around. We soon ended up getting an adapter so that we could use the 2600 sticks instead for gameplay, and that helped.

 

This wasn't a case of someone "sucking at videogames", nor being unable to handle analog sticks (I had extensive experience with the Tandy CoCo joysticks, which were analog) or any of the other features of the 5200 controllers (I never had a problem with Intellivision pads, and don't now either). This was a case of Atari putting out a product whose build quality and reliability was, in many cases, almost criminally poor, and badly alienating many customers as a result. It amazes me that anyone would think that's up for dispute.

 

I don't give a damn about the 5200 vs. CV debate, but I do give a damn about people being honest and civil. Those things are not optional.

Edited July 14, 2009 by thegoldenband

[+thegoldenband]

Just to be clear, I like and enjoy the 5200. From the sound of it, the controllers can work very well with the Best Electronics fix, or several other options. My criticisms refer to the product I held in my hands on Christmas morning, and the experience I had with it; all evidence indicates that I was by no means unique in my experience.

[jetset]

I think it's insulting to claim that people who had a problem with the 5200's controllers "sucked so bad" at videogames. The controllers on my 5200, bought for Christmas 1983 (IIRC), were practically broken out of the box. Above all, the fire buttons on both controllers were incredibly stiff, and within weeks became basically unplayable.

 

My folks were anything but rich, and had to stretch their budget to get a 5200, so it was a very disheartening experience all around. We soon ended up getting an adapter so that we could use the 2600 sticks instead for gameplay, and that helped.

 

This wasn't a case of someone "sucking at videogames", nor being unable to handle analog sticks (I had extensive experience with the Tandy CoCo joysticks, which were analog) or any of the other features of the 5200 controllers (I never had a problem with Intellivision pads, and don't now either). This was a case of Atari putting out a product whose build quality and reliability was, in many cases, almost criminally poor, and badly alienating many customers as a result. It amazes me that anyone would think that's up for dispute.

 

I don't give a damn about the 5200 vs. CV debate, but I do give a damn about people being honest and civil. Those things are not optional.

 

I was being both honest and civil. If your controllers were broken right after buying them your folks should maybe have returned them. I myself had problems with the fire buttons wearing out. IIRC, there was either a 6 or 12 month warranty on the unit and controllers. When the fire buttons wore, we took them to a local Atari authorized repair place and he had them back to me the same day. I don't remember going back THAT often, and they did wear out once after the warranty was up and just paid to have them fixed. I don't remember the price, but my parents were not rich either. If it were that expensive they wouldn't have paid to have them fixed.

Anyways I should have been clearer. As far as the people who had controllers break, (and to that end even with all the CV fanboys and such I've only ever heard of the fire buttons breaking) of course it has nothing to do with their being able to play games well. I was referring to the whole "they don't self center" garbage. I would stand behind that most people complaining about that just do suck and gave up. Just like playing Defender in the arcades...the first half dozen times you play it's a bitch. After practicing you realize how great the controller scheme is. Same with the 5200 controllers. A little practice and skill is all you need. If/when the fire buttons go, that's something different.

[+thegoldenband]

Yeah, I'm not sure why returning them didn't come up. If my memory is correct and it was Xmas 1983 when we got the 5200, the system was already starting to disappear by then, wasn't it? It could be that my folks got it on clearance and didn't think returning it was an option; or, since we lived out in the boonies, maybe they just didn't want to deal with a pair of long drives to get to the store (return/pickup). It's never been easy to get my parents to really DO anything, if you know what I mean.

 

I have mixed memories of the self-centering issue. I don't remember it as a problem with my 5200, but it definitely got on my nerves with the CoCo at times -- it simply wasn't suitable for some types of game. Maybe if I'd had a different set of games for the 5200, it would have been more of a problem, but I don't recall having trouble with Pac-Man.

 

I'm going to have to revisit the CV controllers and see what I think; it may well turn out that I prefer a perfectly-maintained stock 5200 controller to a perfectly-maintained CV controller. But I suspect that when both systems were released, in a lot of cases the CV won "by default" because of experiences like mine. Little kids will put up with practically any control scheme, no matter how bizarre, as long as it works.

 

Reading this page from Best Electronics, they mention that the last of Atari's 5200 controller stock, which they bought around 1996, had a failure rate of 25%-45% out of the box. Even accounting for the fact that they'd been in storage for 4-5 years (according to Best), or maybe longer (I would've thought 10-12 years), that's still nuts -- you don't see those kinds of numbers with CX-40s, or NES controllers. It suggests to me that there was some sort of inherent flaw in their materials, leading to degradation over time...? Since my 1983 unit had four controller ports, it may have been on the shelf for a short while, and maybe that was long enough.

Edited July 14, 2009 by thegoldenband

[carmel_andrews]

At least you people had a 5200 to play with, ultimately all these classic systems had their own little quirks (i guess that is what made that system memorable) just sit back, joystick in hand and enjoy (while it still works or you still have it)

[VectorGamer]

Defending the 5200 stock controller is just silly given that the Atari developers petitioned against its release and the resulting overwhelming response from gamers has been negative.

 

Joysticks are supposed to work for you not against you. There's nothing more frustrating than software bugs or hardware that inhibits game play.

 

Back in the day classic games were competitive. You were trying to beat your own previous high or the player in the top 5 list with the initials "ASS." You can't afford defective or inferior hardware to get in your way of that.

 

When it comes to designing this stuff for potentially millions of players, it needs to be designed for the masses. Not the masses needing to adapt to the design of one.

 

Asking a gamer to adapt as an excuse to a poorly designed controller is silly. I know how to use a joystick as it is not rocket science. The joystick is supposed to be an extension of hand-eye coordination and if it isn't "on" then it's "off."

[phuzaxeman]

if the joystick works and i have time, i could kick a$$ on the 5200 sticks...even against anyone on wico, emulators, dreamcasts etc today :-) .....i grew up with them and that's all i knew. when they broke, i saved my allowance and bought new ones back in the day. i have the cv (wide blistering stiff disc) and the intellivision (very wide with stiff as hell buttons) and the 5200 sticks are still my fav.

[+Allan]

Defending the 5200 stock controller is just silly given that the Atari developers petitioned against its release and the resulting overwhelming response from gamers has been negative.

 

Joysticks are supposed to work for you not against you. There's nothing more frustrating than software bugs or hardware that inhibits game play.

 

Back in the day classic games were competitive. You were trying to beat your own previous high or the player in the top 5 list with the initials "ASS." You can't afford defective or inferior hardware to get in your way of that.

 

When it comes to designing this stuff for potentially millions of players, it needs to be designed for the masses. Not the masses needing to adapt to the design of one.

 

Asking a gamer to adapt as an excuse to a poorly designed controller is silly. I know how to use a joystick as it is not rocket science. The joystick is supposed to be an extension of hand-eye coordination and if it isn't "on" then it's "off."

 

I can only speak for myself on this but after using the 5200 stick for a while I was really happy because it didn't cramp my hands after using it for a while like the 2600 controller did. With the 2600 controller I could only play for an hour or so before I had to stop for a while and rest my hands. I never had that problem with the 5200 controller. Yes I wish the fire buttons were different but I was really happy with the stick. Games like Missile Command, Star Raiders and Realsports Baseball rocked with the 5200 controller. As far as Pacman and games like it, the stick really was that hard. Yea it would have been nice to have a digital stick for them but it wasn't that big of a deal.

 

Allan

[VectorGamer]

From a different perspective and hypothetically, if Pac-Man were outfitted with an analog joystick do you think it would have been the phenomenon that it was?

 

Do you think people would have said "once you get used to the controller it's a great game" and kept pumping quarters in or simply walk away and cut their losses at 25 cents? I'll bet 25 cents on the latter.

[jetset]

From a different perspective and hypothetically, if Pac-Man were outfitted with an analog joystick do you think it would have been the phenomenon that it was?

 

Do you think people would have said "once you get used to the controller it's a great game" and kept pumping quarters in or simply walk away and cut their losses at 25 cents? I'll bet 25 cents on the latter.

 

Absolutely! (although do people REALLY have problems with PacMan with the 5200 stick? That just sounds strange. I think the 5200 controllers are perfect with PacMan. Frogger might have been a better example).

My example of Defender is exactly what you are speaking to. Look at what a hit it was, and with the exception of the fighting games (which came years later) Defender has arguably the toughest control scheme out there. I doubt anyone picked that one up immediately.

 

I still say 100% it boils down to how good you are at games, and how much you are willing to put in a little practice time with the controllers. Same with the CV controllers.

[VectorGamer]

Absolutely! (although do people REALLY have problems with PacMan with the 5200 stick? That just sounds strange. I think the 5200 controllers are perfect with PacMan. Frogger might have been a better example).

 

I have not played Frogger or Q*bert on the 5200 yet. The problem I have with Pac-Man is that my guy tends to not go where I want him to go. I had a retro-gaming party a few months ago and it was funny listening to a girl cuss at the 5200 relentlessly while playing Pac-Man.

 

The controls are slightly better after upgrading to the Gold contacts.

 

On the ColecoVision, Mouse Trap is a tough one to play with the stock controllers. Often I am fighting the joystick to get my mouse "unstuck" as if he's glued to the maze wall.

[Lord Helmet]

Pac-Man with the 5200 stick just takes a lot of getting used to. You have to basically re-center the stick and be very precise at every turn. That said, even after getting used to it a digital stick that self centers is better IMHO.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Lord Helmet

[CARTRIDGE STEALER]

Pac-Man with the 5200 stick just takes a lot of getting used to. You have to basically re-center the stick and be very precise at every turn. That said, even after getting used to it a digital stick that self centers is better IMHO.

 

thats why, the 5200 joystick failed. case closed. why would one have to go through all the trouble of centering a joystick when it's supposed to be its a normal function?

[BuddyBuddies]

I actually liked the CV controllers, i cant say that for the 5200 controllers,but i havent played either console in probably 10 years,lol. JAGUAR RULES!

[kool kitty89]

The CV controllers are OK, certainly better than the 5200's for accurate 4/8 directional movement, particularly when used as a thumbstick rather than a joystick. (the same thing many people end up doing with the 2600 sticks) The only problem with using it in this configuration is it can be hard to reach both action buttons, not to mention the kaypad.

 

Anyway, despite analog controll not being advantageous in some games, there are a significant number that work better with it (trackball typle games, and others like the Star Wars Arcade game that was designed for 2 axis analog controll). The problem is that the quality of 5200 controllers is often questionable and they become inaccurate/jittery when worn (assuming they don't break entirely), along with this is the lack of springs for self centering. The Vectrex handeled this a lot better. (also, while it had more buttons, it wasn't overkill like the the IV, CV, and 5200 -though the keypad was occasionally useful -particularly for games meant to work with one like Star Raiders, it was often unnecessary and added unnecessary complexity to some games)

With a reliable, comfortable, self centering analog stick, the disadvantages to a standard 8-way (4 switch) joystick is less and many problematic games become much more managable. (though not quite as good as a real digital stick, it could probably work well enough to not be overly frustrating)

 

I think most will agree that the Intellivision controller is worse than either the 5200 or CV's. Membrane keypad (a flat one at that on the IV II), flush/recessed directional disc that was placed in a less convienent place (the bottom) compared to the 5200 or CV. And the 16-direction controll that was often inaccurate and problematic in a similar way to analog controlls. (when a standard 8-way joystick would be preferred) The button placement seems a bit less comfortable to use as well.

Still, there's probably those who like the IV's controller compared to the others. (though the machine was lesser in the graphics areas compared to the 5200 or CV, granted it was released earlier -though the 5200 hardware was around as the 400/800 by then, and I think POKEY beats both the IV's AV chip and the CV's Texas Instruments PSG, the latter 2 being rather similar)

Edited July 19, 2009 by kool kitty89

[CPUWIZ]

A lightgun, even though no lightgun games exist (hopefully, that won't be true much longer?).

 

I sent you a PM many months ago about the light gun, you didn't even read it.

[carmel_andrews]

Was there a lightgun for the 5200, or was that the one that eventually became the dodgy xegs lightgun

Edited July 20, 2009 by carmel_andrews

[+Allan]

Was there a lightgun for the 5200, or was that the one that eventually became the dodgy xegs lightgun

No lightgun was ever made for it.

 

Allan