+Random Terrain Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 As I said in another thread, someone should make a BASIC-like language that will allow the average person to make Atari 2600 games from scratch. Besides allowing people to save their work, it should have a built-in compiler that converts the BASIC into a BIN file that will be ready to play using an emulator. Imagine regular people making Atari 2600 games fairly easily with a BASIC language! I put this in the Hacks forum since it seems like many programmers don't want the average person to be able to easily make games (for any system out there, not just the Atari 2600). This BASIC language would have to be made by someone who approves of the average person hacking games and making entire games on their own. It would be nice if the BASIC-type language could also convert an existing BIN file to the new BASIC so that we could understand the code better, but if that's not possible, just being able to compile the BASIC to a BIN file would be good enough. Update: For anyone who finds this old thread in the future and doesn't already know, we have a BASIC-style language for making Atari 2600 games. It's called batari Basic and it has its own forum: atariage.com/forums/forum/65-batari-basic/ Here is the official bB web site: bataribasic.com Here is my adapted version of the bB manual: randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-batari-basic-commands.html And jwierer made an IDE full of cool tools and features called Visual batari Basic: atariage.com/forums/topic/123849-visual-bb-1-0-a-new-ide-for-batari-basic/ VbB makes it easier than ever before to make games using batari Basic. Be sure to check out the Visual batari Basic Guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 16, 2004 Author Share Posted September 16, 2004 (edited) In case you missed my note above: Try batari Basic batari Basic (bB) is a BASIC-like language for creating Atari 2600 games. It is a compiled language and the compiler runs on a computer, but it creates a binary file that can be run on an Atari 2600 emulator or used to make a cartridge that will operate on a real Atari 2600. Edited May 17, 2008 by Random Terrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radio F Software Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 I woud definately make an effort to learn BASIC if someone made a program like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Why waste the time to learn Basic when assembly is not any less confusing to a beginner? But that's besides the point. To paraphrase Thomas (during the Idea Revolutions fiasco)... Programming the 2600, you are constantly making compromises. With machine cycles, which are in short supply...and memory (which is in even shorter supply). The idea of using a high-level language like Basic to translate a program into the lowest-level that the 65xx can understand would be an impossible feat...unless the end result was completely dependant upon some kind of "runtime module" (which the 2600's specifics seem unlikely to support - due to the same problems mentioned above...no time to waste, no memory to squander). Even if somebody doesn't want to devote the time to learn programming from the ground up, there are still things that are possible just though hacking existing programs (I still don't know how to do a 2600 program from scratch). Anyway, the Basic Programming cartridge already exists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 17, 2004 Author Share Posted September 17, 2004 Why waste the time to learn Basic when assembly is not any less confusing to a beginner? When I had a VIC-20, I tried to learn both and BASIC was so much easier. If a BASIC-style language isn't possible, maybe an advanced editor could be made. What happened to the editor that some guy was working on last year where he promised color editing and more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 17, 2004 Author Share Posted September 17, 2004 Here's what I'm talking about: http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28477 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Probably gave up on it upon learning about how much work is involved just trying to figure out how games store colors (which are sometimes shared with other things...and take a disassembly just to locate). But the statement above is correct. Back in the day, there was some kind of study done on Basic vs. assembly...and while Basic appears to be easier to read (due to it's large friendly English words...at least all of them except POKE), the learning curve for a total beginner follows any language's. Schools tended to only offer Basic because it's easier to debug and for instructors to examine. Worse than that is the evidence that learning Basic is counter-productive to learning any other language (because you pick up bad habits from Basic). Trying to learn both at the same time would definately tip the scale toward Basic being better grasped of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 17, 2004 Author Share Posted September 17, 2004 Probably gave up on it upon learning about how much work is involved just trying to figure out how games store colors (which are sometimes shared with other things...and take a disassembly just to locate). Well, that sucks. It looked like it was going to be pretty good. Where did he go? His web site is gone and everything. I hope he didn't die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I put this in the Hacks forum since it seems like many programmers don't want the average person to be able to easily make games (for any system out there, not just the Atari 2600). Not true...(at least for me). We all like good games no matter how they're created. It would be nice if the BASIC-type language could also convert an exiting BIN file to the new BASIC so that we could understand the code better There have been a number of disassemblies done which have been commented to help out in that area. Check out the MiniDig but if that's not possible, just being able to compile the BASIC to a BIN file would be good enough. Calamari did this for the 5200 and there were a few games created with it (by one person AFAIK). I never looked at 5200BAS but from what I heard it was readable and easy to use like BASIC. Why did no one else use this to make more 5200 games? Was it because the 5200 isn't as popular as the 2600? Would a 2600BAS (if even possible) have the same result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Hi there! I think one could do something like a COMBAT-BASIC for the 2600. If you give the programmer just the 2 sprites, three pixels and some playfield to toy with, it all could run with a single standard 2LK kernel. Creations from this would obviously be very limited in gameplay though and I don't think it'd start someone into doing real stuff... -> Just like I haven't seen one single Hackomatic user turning into a programmer yet... Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Mitchell Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 -> Just like I haven't seen one single Hackomatic user turning into a programmer yet... Hey! These are fighting words! Actually I did program a Vectrex program before I used Hackomatic II! Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthQuake Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 -> Just like I haven't seen one single Hackomatic user turning into a programmer yet... I used BitHacker my first day, and the second day I dove into the source (although I didn't know what I was doing). My next big project, however, will probably be an attempt at starting my very own game. I have a lot standing in my path, but I'lll get there one way or another. Even if it means swimming across an ocean or hiking over a mountain. On a similar topic, is there any place where I may find a list of assemblies to popular games that are commented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Hi there! On a similar topic, is there any place where I may find a list of assemblies to popular games that are commented? There you go: http://home.arcor.de/cybergoth/xype/origsrc.zip Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisrael Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I put this in the Hacks forum since it seems like many programmers don't want the average person to be able to easily make games (for any system out there, not just the Atari 2600). This BASIC language would have to be made by someone who approves of the average person hacking games and making entire games on their own. Dude, it's not that "elitist" of a thing, where programmers think you "gotta pay your dues" or something. It's two things: A. programming a decent "interesting" 2600 game HAS to be done at a "low level"...where you're in direct control of EXACTLY what bits and bytes are doing what at any time...especially when you're drawing the screen. BASIC is a always a "high level" language, where one command can do a ton of stuff--like, yeah, you could do some simple stuff in Vic-20 BASIC, but did you make a game other people would like to play! Probably not, or at least not an action game, because it was SO slow. But an Atari game, because of the way it's so tightly tied in with the way the screen is being filled in, 60 times a second, doesn't have the luxury of making a slow game...it virtually HAS to be fast. B. Maybe you're right, programmers don't want to bother to make a "2600 BASIC programming for the masses", because the best you could do is that "Combat" thing that Manuel suggested. The amount of work needed for that level of BASIC divided by the amount of interesting game it would produce would be a very large number indeed. You might want to consider writing games in something friendlier for beginners. How about DarkBASIC? or Flash or Shockwave or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 There you go:http://home.arcor.de/cybergoth/xype/origsrc.zip Hey...where's my latest Indy500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthQuake Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 There you go:http://home.arcor.de/cybergoth/xype/origsrc.zip Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I used BitHacker my first day, and the second day I dove into the source (although I didn't know what I was doing). My next big project, however, will probably be an attempt at starting my very own game. I have a lot standing in my path, but I'lll get there one way or another. Even if it means swimming across an ocean or hiking over a mountain. That's exactly what I hope what might result from hacking. 10 (or 100) people start hacking games and most of them are happy with the results. But if only one or two of them start digging into the code, learn assembler and some day decides to start programming, then this can only be good for homebrewing (and the whole Atari loving community). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Damn it...it's statements like that from bonafide programmers like yourself that is ruining us hackers' bad boy image Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I put this in the Hacks forum since it seems like many programmers don't want the average person to be able to easily make games (for any system out there, not just the Atari 2600). This BASIC language would have to be made by someone who approves of the average person hacking games and making entire games on their own. Dude, it's not that "elitist" of a thing, where programmers think you "gotta pay your dues" or something. It's two things: A. programming a decent "interesting" 2600 game HAS to be done at a "low level"...where you're in direct control of EXACTLY what bits and bytes are doing what at any time...especially when you're drawing the screen. BASIC is a always a "high level" language, where one command can do a ton of stuff--like, yeah, you could do some simple stuff in Vic-20 BASIC, but did you make a game other people would like to play! Probably not, or at least not an action game, because it was SO slow. But an Atari game, because of the way it's so tightly tied in with the way the screen is being filled in, 60 times a second, doesn't have the luxury of making a slow game...it virtually HAS to be fast. B. Maybe you're right, programmers don't want to bother to make a "2600 BASIC programming for the masses", because the best you could do is that "Combat" thing that Manuel suggested. The amount of work needed for that level of BASIC divided by the amount of interesting game it would produce would be a very large number indeed. You might want to consider writing games in something friendlier for beginners. How about DarkBASIC? or Flash or Shockwave or something? Or GameMaker...which was designed to run on the C64 and AppleII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinky Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 -> Just like I haven't seen one single Hackomatic user turning into a programmer yet... The moment you change a bit of an instruction instead of graphics you've become a programmer I used BitHacker my first day, and the second day I dove into the source Great to see what BitHacker can do (expect an update soon!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisrael Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Damn it...it's statements like that from bonafide programmers like yourself that is ruining us hackers' bad boy image Heh, who was that to? Anyway, I suppose, yeah, people who managed to code a whole Atari game do consider ourselves a little "above" hackers...but you're different than the large number of dabblers. Like I expressed in private msg, you've really taken it to the next level, exhibiting deep understanding of ROMs' internals. What you do is way beyond small bits of graphical or color tweaking... In fact, given your ability to read a diassembled ROM, without all the helpful labels and whatnot a "proper" source file has...that's a skill I lack. Hell, sometimes i have enough of a hard time following other people's source code! Getting back to the idea of a 2600 BASIC...some programmers know ASM, and some know how to make a compiler, but the overlap is relatively small. Heh, thinking of BASIC programming...I remember a while back someone got really into trying to stretch how much that little cartridge could do, just struggling to make playable games with it. (hell, given how little you have to work with, i wonder how many possible programs there are??) Does anyone know of the link I'm thinking of for that? I never got around to trying 'em out though :-/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 17, 2004 Author Share Posted September 17, 2004 (edited) Dude, it's not that "elitist" of a thing, where programmers think you "gotta pay your dues" or something. Remember that I was talking about all systems and computers. There are many programmers who think like that. They happen to have excellent minds that are capable of quickly understanding the most complex things and they want to keep programming complicated so that they have no competition from 'undeserving' people. It's like a brotherhood for many of them. I'm not saying all programmers are like that, but many or most are. A. programming a decent "interesting" 2600 game HAS to be done at a "low level"...where you're in direct control of EXACTLY what bits and bytes are doing what at any time...especially when you're drawing the screen. A program could be made to do those low level things, but make it more user friendly. Have you ever used Namo WebEditor? It has a WYSIWYG editor and an HTML editor. Version 6.0 lets you see both editors on the screen at the same time if you want. In a similar way, a person could make an Atari 2600 game creation program that may not have a basic language, but it could make programming easier by giving both the low level view and an alternative view that might make the code easier to understand. BASIC is a always a "high level" language, where one command can do a ton of stuff--like, yeah, you could do some simple stuff in Vic-20 BASIC, but did you make a game other people would like to play! Probably not, or at least not an action game, because it was SO slow. I made some fairly good stuff using BASIC on the VIC-20. As I learned more tricks, things got much faster. I didn't go too far with the VIC-20 because I moved to the Commodore 64 and lost ground since I basically had to start all over again learning new tricks. I got Gary Kitchen's GameMaker in late 1986 and had a lot of fun with that. It was better than BASIC since it had a BASIC-like language and it came with great tools for creating graphics, animations, music, and sound effects. B. Maybe you're right, programmers don't want to bother to make a "2600 BASIC programming for the masses", because the best you could do is that "Combat" thing that Manuel suggested. The amount of work needed for that level of BASIC divided by the amount of interesting game it would produce would be a very large number indeed. I think something could be made that would allow the average person to make a game that was better than that. It reminds me of the four minute mile mental block everyone had. http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/info/q96-11-1.htm You might want to consider writing games in something friendlier for beginners. How about DarkBASIC? or Flash or Shockwave or something? This is a thread about someone making a game creation program that will allow the average person to make games that will play using an Atari 2600 emulator. I'm sure there are many people who would love to have the chance to make a few games for their favorite classic system. I already own Blitz Basic which makes lightning-fast games for the PC, but it's not what I'm looking for because it doesn't come with Blitz-specific tools. I want it to be more like AMOS professional for the Amiga that came with every tool you needed. Most of the people who use Blitz Basic say there are many tools out there, so why should Blitz come with anything? I say it's because most of the tools out there cost at least $100 each. Some of us don't have rich mommies and daddies to buy us whatever our little hearts desire. And besides that, you have to learn how to make stuff that will work with Blitz. Blitz Basic should come with tools that produces results that will immediately be compatible with the Blitz games you make. Until Blitz Basic comes with tools, they can go screw themselves. I thought by now that we would have easy-to-use tools so that even semi-untalented people could make their own games. The easiest things right now are Klick & Krud type programs, but even they're more complicated than they should be and they don't even come with the good quality tools that Gary Kitchen's GameMaker came with back in the 1980s for the Commodore 64. We should have a great game design program that comes with tools that make the game design process a joy. Totally intuitive and gives you every tool you need to create a game from start to finish. But that's getting off the subject. This thread is about someone making a game creation program for the Atari 2600. Edited December 17, 2007 by Random Terrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I can't remember if that was during the Nexus boards or these...a search doesn't seem to turn up anything But yeah, 63 bytes of ram...or the "gibberish" trick to make an unstable 64 or 65. Really limits the size of a program...because the instructions are needed to be held that way (instead of rom) just to be able to display them on the screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Here's one...but there's a longer thread around someplace... http://atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6979 BTW here's the 5200Basic thread that was mentioned earlier. (so you fence-sitters have no exuse) http://atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3274 But as stated earlier, the only thing that somebody needs is the WILL to program something (which almost needs to border on obsession to do something from scratch). There's plenty of reference materials and code snippets laying around for programming the little VCS...and the 2600 homebrew scene is probably the least "elitest" one that you would be likely to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted September 18, 2004 Author Share Posted September 18, 2004 BTW here's the 5200Basic thread that was mentioned earlier.(so you fence-sitters have no excuse) :lol:http://atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3274 Never had an Atari 5200, so I don't care to even try the program: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/compilers/...as/5200bas.html I also don't have an Atari 5200 emulator, so it would be useless. Does a good one even exist for Windows XP computers? I don't like to use ancient DOS crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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