Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 I have some bad news for everyone... Thomas didn't find any code that would trigger the 2nd key to appear. He did however send me a patched version, which shows what the key would have looked like, had the code existed: He has a theory as to why it was never used. Here are his comments: "I have some new knowledge about the kernel. Since it only has two variables, which say where to start with the display of the objects and where to stop, it is impossible not to display (disable) objects which are vertical between of displayed objects. Examples (Entrance Room): Hole + Rock + Whip is ok, Hole + Whip not, because the Rock is in the middle and can't be disabled independently. Only Hole or only Whip would be possible too. For the Key, that would lead to some restrictions too. If the Rock can't be disabled, the Key could only appear together with the Hole, because that is between them. If the Rock would be disabled, then the Key could only appear as long as there is no Whip. That leads me back to my old theory. The Key was removed from this room, because the Rock can't be disabled and then they could only display the Key together with the Hole, which would cost points and making it impossible to reach an optimal score. The realized that during playtesting and so they moved the key into a basket. Inside the code, the Key isn't triggered I'm quite sure, because now I know the variable and searched for it. It's only used to enable the Hole or to enable/disable the Whip. There is no code for enabling the necessary bit, which would show the Key (bit 2 in $B1)." So there you have it. Unless Twit's proto is different, or if more are found, that's the anticlimatic end to this week-long search. At least we learned a few things about the release version: 1. The JD initials do not exist 2. The 2nd key (hidden in the code) cannot be found during gameplay. 3. The maximum score is 82 out of 90 (or 20.5 circles out of 23) If Twit's proto yields any new info, it will be posted here. I can't thank everyone enough for helping with this. You guys are the best. S [ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 15, 2001 Share Posted November 15, 2001 So then basically you guys are saying that all possible points in the game have been found at this point? Or so it would seem? Question about the key. Just to clarify. Aren't all the graphics displayed upside down in the code? That would mean that you guys have been posting the key upside down in the pics. Also, and this is way far fetched. But is it possible to overlay several of the actuall current existing graphics in the game to actually create something new? For instance you could alter the hourclass and turn it into the Anhk by actually displaying the hourglass and combining it with some dead graphic space or something? My theory is that would it be possible to actually create his initials by combining several already placed graphic objects? I believe you stated earlier that the Lunatic is displayed in this way. There are so many places in the code where we have just seemingly random boxes...in the graphics that it might be possible that instead of being just a static image...that it might be a combination of several ontop of one another? Just a thought. I find it hard to believe that the screenshot which has been around forever was done from a proto version. I realize most magazines in that time got those lab loaner carts...but most of the time those were the final released code but without the fancy box and labels. Hence why most of Tempests Protos are actually just the PCB and nothing else. So...either it is in there...and really cleverly hidden somehow. Or this how thing was never there to begin with and Howard Warsaw simply thought it was in there...since they had their initials in other games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 15, 2001 Author Share Posted November 15, 2001 Some of the graphics are upside-down (as they normally are) but not all of them. As for the EG photo, nobody wants to believe that the JD logo is in the release more than me! I do know that Atari supplied EG with that photo. Besides showing the 'now infamous' logo, it really isn't a great screen shot to promote the game with. You'd think they would have used just about any screen other than a mesa field/VoP one. Maybe someone at Atari took offense at that picture being sent to EG - blatantly showing Jerome Domurat's initials - and gave Howard some grief over it, so he deleted the code. Maybe the photo was used as a prank. Who knows..... As for making an altered version, etc., perhaps Christian will make a VCSS version, which contains the missing JD logo and key, or even a full-blown sequel (how cool would that be)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Pardon me if this was addressed here or somewhere else.. but is there anyway to "cheat" and make it so you get the maximum amount of points and reach the ark at the end of the game? If so, does anything happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I was afraid of that. The egg might still be in the cart (see the "glitch" theory above)...but considering how long the game has been around, it's unlikely since nobody has stumbled upon it. That is the only guess as to why it would be so hard to find in the program itself (back in the day, there was no practical way for the common gamer to look at a program listing from a cart...and it would be simple for the programmer to put that object in the source code if it was completely intentional). I remember looking for that object even before I had won the game for the first time. There were only a couple screen-shots that I had seen before getting the cart, and the E.G. pic was one of them (odd though...I could swear that I saw it in Joystik). Back then, I just thought that it was a regular object to be found in the game. As far as upside-down images are concerned... It is just easier to code it that way. The 2600 makes displays scanline-by-scanline. Whatever value is fetched first will be displayed first. You can have a register serve double-duty by using it to keep track of which byte from memory is to displayed, in addition to how many bytes are left (subtract 1 each time a byte is displayed, if it is zero, the full image is on screen). NE146-- There are NO "points" in the game...the program is just making the pedestal higher or lower. Any attempt to make it go above 82 pixels high at the end of a game will result in the Ark not being displayed at all (the circles will still be there, but the colors won't cycle). I've got a screenshot of that if anyone wants it (made with Stella), that shows an impossible score of 89 (22 full circles). [ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 No, we don't know how to do that because there are some "missing" points. See above for the max. point total. Even if we could hack it up, we couldn't find what triggered the "lost" points. (Listen to me say "we" like I did something.) So what this all boils down to is, there are no JD initials in my Raiders cart, I can't trigger the 2nd key, and can't get a perfect score, AND I have played more ROTLA than I ever thought I would in my whole life. That game is going into retirement real soon. Maybe I'll beat it one more time... Scott, I'm sorry this whole adventure didn't yield any positive results. It sure was fun, though, and at least you have the answers you were seeking. It will be interesting to see what the proto turns up. Thanks for the ride! Did all I could, Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Oops...my bad. The only reason the Ark wasn't displayed/color didn't cycle in my hacked game was because I didn't actually dig it up before I made the screenshot (I just killed myself off at the beginning of the game). In any case, there are no more pixels to be added to the pedestal other than the ones found at $0DDB (the endgame "score" calculation routine). There, you can find the eight positive actions and three negative ones affecting the pedestal directly. The result becomes the counter for the game to decide which scanlines get a piece of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Regarding the second key image... It could be that the map room was originally planned to have an image of a key in the lower portion of the map (where the large headpiece image is). That would explain why it is oriented correctly and has a stretched image. Since you need to use the key in your inventory, might have decided that displaying it at that point in the game was overly redundant...and displayed an the other image for a clue as to what to do in there. The old data was written over with newer values to be used elsewhere, but the key image might have been left over. The positioning of the large key would be correct horizontally, but from the pic above it looks as though the vertical offset was reused for something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: Any attempt to make it go above 82 pixels high at the end of a game will result in the Ark not being displayed at all (the circles will still be there, but the colors won't cycle). I've got a screenshot of that if anyone wants it (made with Stella), that shows an impossible score of 89 (22 full circles). At RESET, the pedestal is 23 circles high (Indy is about a circle away from actually touching the Ark). If you "fry" the game, you can get the pedestal to be frozen at 27 circles high. Indy will appear stuck through the bottom of the Ark (which remains on the screen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I know...I forgot that the program looks at the "found Ark" varible byte again, after calculating the height of the pedestal...and that byte will display the Ark unless it's still zero. Same goes for the color cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by StanJr: I've also ran from the ******* (thief) until I could run no more. He doesn't change into anything, but if you run out of stuff to give him, he will just hump you until you leave the valley..... I've dropped/and/given just about every item to the master thief. (most of the time he just takes it and shoots you!) HAHAHA!! Just re-reading this novel. This bit gave me a good (needed) laugh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by -^Cro§Bow^-: Also, and this is way far fetched. But is it possible to overlay several of the actuall current existing graphics in the game to actually create something new? For instance you could alter the hourclass and turn it into the Anhk by actually displaying the hourglass and combining it with some dead graphic space or something? My theory is that would it be possible to actually create his initials by combining several already placed graphic objects? No, it isn't possible with the code that is inside the game. None of kernels can combine two different memory locations. quote: I believe you stated earlier that the Lunatic is displayed in this way. Sorry, but no again. The Lunatatic is stored at a rather complicated way (mixing graphic data with control codes for color and shifting left/right), but all that data has to be in one single block. quote: There are so many places in the code where we have just seemingly random boxes...in the graphics that it might be possible that instead of being just a static image...that it might be a combination of several ontop of one another? The "random boxes" are tables which e.g. contain pointers and various other non graphic datas. Believe me, the ROTLA quest is over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: Regarding the second key image... It could be that the map room was originally planned to have an image of a key in the lower portion of the map (where the large headpiece image is). That would explain why it is oriented correctly and has a stretched image. Since you need to use the key in your inventory, might have decided that displaying it at that point in the game was overly redundant...and displayed an the other image for a clue as to what to do in there. The old data was written over with newer values to be used elsewhere, but the key image might have been left over. The positioning of the large key would be correct horizontally, but from the pic above it looks as though the vertical offset was reused for something else. I don't think so. There are six blocks of data inside the code, all of the same size. They are used for six different rooms (Entrance Room, Market, Mesa Side, Black Market, Map Room and Treasure Room). So they would have had to move the Key data from the data block of another room to the Entrance Room and also overwrite any graphic that was planned there before. I doubt that they did (why should they do so) and I'm quite sure, the Key was always planned for the Entrance Room. The position of the Key could have been adjusted at the very end playtesting, but they already had removed it, so they didn't do that. Or, all objects in the six scenes are positioned relatively by using the horizontal movement registers. The objects at the top start at the center. But the Hole has to be on the very right side, so if they had centered the key, they may not have had enough lines left to position the Hole correct. I can check this, if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I've been reading this thread the past few days with some interest and had commited myself to solving the mystery. Im pleased to say that after 32 hours of straight play and four 6 packs of Miller, I finally solved the game and found all the hidden eggs you have been discussing as well as an added suprise! The infamous "Olive" easter-egg that was mentioned back in Blip issue 3. Unfortunately I cant remember how I did it but luckily I did a screen capture before I passed out!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 Blip- that's where I go for the truth... LOL! Nice pic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genki Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Wow you guys sure take finding every little detaisl seriously. Anyway this thread is about to surpass that 5 million ET thread as the longest active thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by wi1ykat: Wow you guys sure take finding every little detaisl seriously. It's like computer games archology for me quote: Anyway this thread is about to surpass that 5 million ET thread as the longest active thread. And it's definitely much more fun digging into game details and source code than into a garbage dump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: Would there be any way to find out how to trigger the E.T. intentionally (during a game)? It must be somewhere hidden in the code, so finding a bug isn't much different to finding an easter egg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 17, 2001 Author Share Posted November 17, 2001 I'm also curious to figure out what causes the treasure room objects to sometimes appear in reverse order (normally it's Ankh-Chai-Hourglass). Hard to believe, but I still don't know everything about this game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 17, 2001 Author Share Posted November 17, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: It could be that the "easter egg" is a glitch...like that extra candy in ET (which I have a hunch is caused by the carry bit). Would there be any way to find out how to trigger the E.T. intentionally (during a game)? I have a videotape that Jeff Adkins made of him finding this, but I've never been able to do it myself. Seems accounting isn't Warshaw's forte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 They do? I never noticed that...thanks. Thomas Jentzsch-- While it's true that you can't combine two graphic images to make a third, you could change a byte before it's displayed (which I've done while hacking the mesa side screen). The graphics for the lunatic & "initials" are very similar...and you might be able to use a combination of ROL, EOR, AND, etc. to use that image to create the initials. Can't find an area where the lunatic's image is loaded another time, though. And tracking down a glitch can be very hard to find (even with source code) compared to an easter egg...since the latter is done intentionally (or so claimed). Any idea where the ET program decides when to display a candy piece? [ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: Nukey Shay ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Nukey Shay: While it's true that you can't combine two graphic images to make a third, you could change a byte before it's displayed (which I've done while hacking the mesa side screen). The graphics for the lunatic & "initials" are very similar...and you might be able to use a combination of ROL, EOR, AND, etc. to use that image to create the initials. Can't find an area where the lunatic's image is loaded another time, though. Yes, the graphics look a bit similar. Unfortunately your theorie must be wrong, because the screenshot with the initials shows the VoP. There are two different main kernels used inside ROTLA. Only one of them is capable of showing complicated objects like the Lunatic. But that kernel can not display dynamic playfield graphics like those that are used in VoP. quoteAnd tracking down a glitch can be very hard to find (even with source code) compared to an easter egg...since the latter is done intentionally (or so claimed). Any idea where the ET program decides when to display a candy piece? Don't know, may have another look at the code to find out. You are trying to find out, how the bugs in E.T. work, aren't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 Uh-oh, looks like I'm going to have to drag the ET cart back out. How do you cause the candy glitch again? Collect 31 pieces and then what? I'll see what I can do. Here we go again Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genki Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 Here we go again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted November 18, 2001 Author Share Posted November 18, 2001 I'm just curious to see how the extra candy glitch works, since it unintentionally reveals Howard's signature (HSW3), and b/c it's a very rare glitch - I only know of 2 people who have seen it - Jeff Adkins and Russ Perry Jr.(?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.