AR: City - FlashCart / Stage 2

[densonj]

You can also just press the "k" key to back-out of the bank so you aren't required to have a joystick for playing.

870662[/snapback]

 

That does not work. You have to use a joystick (or a key programmed for joystick down in an emulator.

870666[/snapback]

 

You are right Xebec. My apologies for the bad information. I don't recall having to have a joystick attached when playing in the '80's. Must be the old-age kicking in.

[deathtrappomegranate]

IMO Analmux is spot on.

 

It will always be possible to cheat, and it will also be easy to cheat. To make it a little bit tricky would require many hours of clever coding. However difficult it's made to cheat with the new cart, it would always be just as possible as always with the original.

 

I think that the way to go is to make the cart conversion as like the original as possible, while eliminating the disk swapping, which is the only real drawback to using original media in the first place.

 

Now, if you were to produce an online version, that would change things. But that's a whole different ball game.

 

Personally, I'm very pleased to see the resurgence of interest in the AR games. I think that they deserve it. However, the idea of having anything related to computers as "perpetual" is mighty ambitious. I hope that people will continue to post their AR:C stories. Some of the commentaries have been very entertaining.

 

I wonder what PP is up to nowadays? I suspect that he wouldn't be very likely to be interested in A8 coding now, but it would be very nice to hear his thoughts about all of this.

[smartwhois]

...stop chattin up a storm...make the damn cart already!!!! if you have cheats or bakcups...ill use them...if ya dont, I wont......make the thing though....tired of swappin disks in the emulatr!!!!

[analmux]

...stop chattin up a storm...make the damn cart already!!!!  if you have cheats or bakcups...ill use them...if ya dont, I wont......make the thing though....tired of swappin disks in the emulatr!!!!

871114[/snapback]

 

 

...is there something wrong with your keyboard???

[Xebec's Demise]

Looks like he has a serious case of sticky keys.

 

Maybe he uses his computer for more than playing games.

 

[+remowilliams]

Holy bordering on lunacy discussion.

 

As far as "cheating" - I don't see for the most part why people play games with a closet full of cheats turned on. That being said, I wouldn't tell them they shouldn't, or try to make sure they don't. And as far as a character backup - I certainly don't consider that cheating, unless of course you're in a contest that specifically prohibits it. Not everyone has the same drive, patience or time to invest in a game.

 

Here's an idea. You play games the way you want to, and I'll play them the way I want to. Don't tell me how I should be able to play, and I won't pee in your cornflakes.

 

And all that aside - if character backup on cart is withheld, than I'm withholding purchase of the cart.

 

And I'm definitely up for buying these sort of flashcart ports - Steve knows I have too many already

Edited June 18, 2005 by remowilliams

[deathtrappomegranate]

Holy bordering on lunacy discussion.

 

As far as "cheating" - I don't see for the most part why people play games with a closet full of cheats turned on.  That being said, I wouldn't tell them they shouldn't, or try to make sure they don't.  And as far as a character backup - I certainly don't consider that cheating, unless of course your in a contest that specifically prohibits it.  Not everyone has the same drive, patience or time to invest in a game.

 

Here's an idea.  You play games the way you want to, and I'll play them the way I want to.  Don't tell me how I should be able play, and I won't pee in your cornflakes.

 

And all that aside - if character backup on cart is withheld, than I'm withholding purchase of the cart.

 

And I'm definitely up for buying these sort of flashcart ports -  Steve knows I have too many already 

876310[/snapback]

 

Well said.

[Xebec's Demise]

Holy bordering on lunacy discussion.

 

As far as "cheating" - I don't see for the most part why people play games with a closet full of cheats turned on.  That being said, I wouldn't tell them they shouldn't, or try to make sure they don't.  And as far as a character backup - I certainly don't consider that cheating, unless of course you're in a contest that specifically prohibits it.  Not everyone has the same drive, patience or time to invest in a game.

 

Here's an idea.  You play games the way you want to, and I'll play them the way I want to.  Don't tell me how I should be able to play, and I won't pee in your cornflakes.

 

And all that aside - if character backup on cart is withheld, than I'm withholding purchase of the cart.

 

And I'm definitely up for buying these sort of flashcart ports -  Steve knows I have too many already 

876310[/snapback]

 

Poorly said.

 

I'm not telling anyone how to play or that they shouldn't cheat, you can do whatever you wish. I am only pointing out how to make the cartridge more playable, challenging and successful overall.

 

I have covered the drawbacks of having backups along with all the old cheats on the AR cartridge characters in detail and have explained why not having them would benefit the project.

 

So, why don't you go ahead and explain why you think they would have no effect or even benefit the project? I would be really interested to see the actual argument rather than an empty statement that does not even apply to what I have written.

 

I could just as easily tell you the same senseless garbage, "You have no right to tell us that the cartridge should include backups, blah, blah, blah!" Meaningless.

 

How is not having a backup going to stop you from playing? It's not! In fact, you can not only still play the game, but I am sure that you would be playing the game more often and with a renewed interest.

 

The majority of people always want things easier, but they do not take the time to consider the ramifications. Take any popular game and poll all the players and generally you will find that the majority wants the game to be made easier in some way. This is because good games are intrinsically challenging and humans are intrinsically lazy, always looking for shortcuts and easier paths. However, easier is not always better, especially when the subject is games, which are by very definition, challenging. The less of a challenge, the less of a game.

 

Maybe someday you will realize this, what I am supporting here and why. Hopefully, it's not after the cartridge is completed along with backups and the resulting cheats.

 

My only motive is that I want the best for the AR cartridge project success and the AR game in general and backups and cheats are not a part of that. What is yours? A forum debate? The need to blindly reply because you have a bad taste in your mouth from someone expressing why the cartridge should be different from what you are used to? Or do I just rub you the wrong way?

 

This discussion should not be about feelings, it should be about the game.

[Gunstar]

i still prefer a cart version with saves on the flash... (backup or not) simply because i have no 1050 connected... or maybe i can use my sio2pc setup... but still a simple 800xl + cart could be fun and kind of "console" approach... remember... would it not be possible to play AR on atari consoles like the xe game machines?

868816[/snapback]

 

Yes, it would be possible to play on the XEGS, but even though it was sold as a "console" in competition with the NES, Master System and even the 7800, it is really still just an 8-bit computer; it has the keyboard, is 100% compatible with the 8-bit line and you can connect tape and disk drives and EVRYTHING else that another A8 can have, so it's not REALLY a console like all the others where you HAD to use only cartridges and/or cards. But you are also right that if the AR cartridge allows for character DISKS, that you could use your SIO2PC with it as the computer can not tell the difference between real disk drives and the A.P.E "virtual" drives, all you have to do is create a blank disk ATR disk image with ape, then use AR make it into a character disk. I think you are right that there should be a savable character to cartridge, but just not able to back it up ON CARTRIDGE. It should also have the ability to use a character disk, then, if you want a back-up, you use the disk drive, whether it is real or virtual. But then, I'm not totally against character back-ups like XEbec's Demise is; I use them often, except for competition, and I don't think it's really cheating when used on your own becuase the proces of saving alone, let alone bcking up a character, takes a while to reload, etc., that I only save and back-up my character at the end of a full session, usually hours of play, and if you die, and use your back-up, you naturally lose hours of experience and aquired posessions and progress. You just don't have to start from scratch again at level 0. When you have a level 5 or 6 or higher character that has take you many hours over many weeks or months to get (assuming you didn't sit down and play for 6-10 hours to get there in one session), it sucks to have to start from scratch again. I generally have multiple characters on a character disk that I divide my time between too, so it takes even longer to acheive something with one character. But, I do NOT like the idea of a cartridge back-up that makes it all too easy, the way I do it is not easy, it just doesn't mean you have to start from scratch, but you DO lose a LOT still. Cartridge back-up would be far to quick and easy, and to that point, I agree with Xebec's Demise and think it would ruin the experience.

[+remowilliams]

Well, I guess I won't be buying the cart because of the extra cost then.

 

The extra equipment, such as the biometric scanner to ensure my identity and the full electrode set that will monitor my very thoughts to see:

 

-If I am unworthy to even start playing

-If I have been backing up my character saves

-If I have even been thinking about backing up my character saves

-If I have been comitting some as yet undiscovered crime that would ruin the godlike integrity of the GAME throughout the entire space time continuum for all eternity

-Am not playing the game the "WAY IT SHOULD BE PLAYED"

 

and will summon the long arm of the law to come and personally dispense righteous and angry vengeance upon me - will surely drive the price point much higher than originally anticipated. Oh well.

[Gunstar]

Well, I guess I won't be buying the cart because of the extra cost then.

 

The extra equipment, such as the biometric scanner to ensure my identity and the full electrode set that will monitor my very thoughts to see:

 

-If I am unworthy to even start playing

-If I have been backing up my character saves

-If I have even been thinking about backing up my character saves

-If I have been comitting some as yet undiscovered crime that would ruin the godlike integrity of the GAME throughout the entire space time continuum for all eternity

-Am not playing the game the "WAY IT SHOULD BE PLAYED"

 

and will summon the long arm of the law to come and personally dispense righteous and angry vengeance upon me - will surely drive the price point much higher than originally anticipated.  Oh well.

876608[/snapback]

 

how juvenile...like we even care anyway. However, retaining the original author's vision of HIS game is the whole point of the "integrity" whether or not a simple mind finds it "godlike."

Edited June 18, 2005 by Gunstar

[Xebec's Demise]

Well, I guess I won't be buying the cart because of the extra cost then.

 

The extra equipment, such as the biometric scanner to ensure my identity and the full electrode set that will monitor my very thoughts to see:

 

-If I am unworthy to even start playing

-If I have been backing up my character saves

-If I have even been thinking about backing up my character saves

-If I have been comitting some as yet undiscovered crime that would ruin the godlike integrity of the GAME throughout the entire space time continuum for all eternity

-Am not playing the game the "WAY IT SHOULD BE PLAYED"

 

and will summon the long arm of the law to come and personally dispense righteous and angry vengeance upon me - will surely drive the price point much higher than originally anticipated.  Oh well.

876608[/snapback]

 

That's great. I sincerely ask you for your input and reasoning on why the cartridge should have backups, not your feelings about my reasoning, and you give me more garbage. It's good sarcasm, but not helpful.

[analmux]

Okay Xebec, I've read your arguments, and I'll try to understand. But I also want to give my arguments:

 

We can divide the group of people playing AR in 3:

 

1) people that are totally crazy about it, they have the drive to play this game for hours etc. ...they don't cheat or make any backups (we can still discuss in what sense making backups is cheating).

 

2) people that like the idea/concepts of AR but are not that enthousiastic: for these people AR is too slow (more general: these people don't like RPGs/adventures that much, and are more interested in action games)

 

3) people that don't like AR.

 

Xebec is most likely to be found in group 1, whereas I would be in group 2.

 

----------------------------

 

I know that cheating is not the solution (for most people ) for enjoying a game. Indeed, when you cheat your way through a game, at the end you've seen it all, and lost interest (I've experienced this many times). Maybe this reasoning also holds for making backups, but not for everyone.

 

I would like to see a flashcart-image of AR, such that I can upload it into the 1MByte cartridge I already have, but buying a new one I most likely will not do.

 

I personally like action games (platformers & shoot-em-ups) and will most likely never enjoy playing AR, but that does not say that I'm not interested in the feeling of playing AR, and the story behind it. I think it's a pretty good story. AR is definitely an adventure (with 3D animations) where you have to explore the world with a very very limited view, and this is exactly why it can be boring too for most people: some people want to have a high observational input into their brains, and AR is not giving me that.

 

I must admit that playing games means this for me:

A game triggers a virtual world in your mind, and I always want to explore that world as fast as I can: gameplay is far less important to me than music, graphics and world design. I want to hear and see this as fast as possible. That's why I want to cheat (make savestates, take unlimited lives and so on). Back in the 90ies I used to be addicted to Nintendo games, and this had a very big impact on my way of life. Games that were hard to play I always wanted to play them over and over, even if I didn't come any further. Lateron I considered that it was all a waste of my precious time, and got interested in emulators with savestate options. Now I've played many of those titles this way and I must say that I feel set free of that constant drive to play videogames. I don't even play them anymore nowadays...I'm just not interested anymore, and I think that's fine.

But I must also say that even now I've played Super Mario 3 100000 times, I still like it, even when I've cheated on it many times, and cracked a few things, but it's still part of my life, and maybe Xebec, AR is a similar thing for you. So I think you should try to find those people that never get bored on AR. I think that people that will start playing AR NOW, when it's (nearly) available on a cartridge, will never be that enthousiastic about it, with or without character backups.

 

On the other hand, people that want to play AR already are enthousiastic, and won't lose interest when they can make backups. And people that know themselves very good, i.e. they know that making backups spoils their appetite, they won't make backups either, otherwise they'll reconsider the purchase, and play it on emulator or something.

 

But now the flashcart version might be available soon. This means that AR will be a lot faster. This is exactly why I think I would make a transition from group 2 to group 1...but now the game is already altered (it's not the original feeling anymore).

 

Anyhow, making backups was an option in the original game. I don't know if saving to flashcart takes shorter than saving to disk, but anyway you can make a delay loop, to discourage making backups too often, and having to restart the game after reloading a backup......

 

Oh, and another thing: Xebec, you say you want to fight for the succes of AR, but Atari is not the only platform. Many people play it on other platforms, on PCs, even online. Do you care about them too, or only the Atarians?

[danwinslow]

We should just stop talking about it. Xebec isn't going to change his mind, and the 95% of the rest of us that think he is way off base aren't either. One thing I think we *can* agree on is that this cart is just going to be GREAT.

[+remowilliams]

And people that know themselves very good, i.e. they know that making backups spoils their appetite, they won't make backups either, otherwise they'll reconsider the purchase, and play it on emulator or something.

You know - I thought I knew myself pretty well too. Apparently somebody knows better.

How is not having a backup going to stop you from playing? It's not! In fact, you can not only still play the game, but I am sure that you would be playing the game more often and with a renewed interest.

Oh, and another thing: Xebec, you say you want to fight for the succes of AR, but Atari is not the only platform. Many people play it on other platforms, on PCs, even online. Do you care about them too, or only the Atarians?

(Hides his STs, Amigas, C64s, and AppleIIs)

We should just stop talking about it. Xebec isn't going to change his mind, and the 95% of the rest of us that think he is way off base aren't either.

Yup. You can't shift the opinion of someone who knows their way is the right way. My idea of let the individual player decide seems to be an unwelcome revolution. Luckily this is a game we're talking about.

 

As an aside, although I unfortunately, seem unable to channel the thoughts of Philip Price, I'm guessing that his thoughts on this wouldn't be about whether or not I could backup my save game disk easily on a flash cart, but more along the lines of "Hey - Cease and Desist, this is my IP we're talking about!"

 

And at the end of the day, If the final AR Cart is released with silly imposed limitations, changed code, screen counters, time delays or any other nonsense - I'm not buying it. And consequently my interest in AR will not be renewed by the ease of use and convenience of a cart release, and I won't be playing it. But I'm sure that's just fine with some, as I don't appear do meet their ideal of a true AR player - and have therefore been deemed unfit to enjoy what it has to offer.

 

Anyhow, I'd like to thank Wrathchild for his excellent work on this and other (I'm still battling away on Koronis Rift) flash ports. Truly Awesome! Make AR as you see fit

 

-Over and Out-

Edited June 19, 2005 by remowilliams

[analmux]

We should just stop talking about it. Xebec isn't going to change his mind, and the 95% of the rest of us that think he is way off base aren't either. One thing I think we *can* agree on is that this cart is just going to be GREAT.

876997[/snapback]

 

Well, that is not the point. Xebec is not the one that decides if AR-flash will have character backups or not, so I don't care anyway.

 

I just like to give my (hopefully well argumented) opinion on this, as we are free to discuss the things we want to on this board. And I hope, after my long explanation, he now understands that gameplay experience does not always depend only on how hard a game is.

 

Xebec wanted arguments, and now he got them. And I don't like to hear him say that I didn't give any.

 

..and another thing @ Xebec: remember that Wrathchild is doing this all in his spare time, so I don't think you should expect him doing what you want i.e. making cheating more difficult. As I said (well argumented) before: big teams of people get paid for jobs like making protection code, or did I read somewhere that you're going to pay Wrathchild to make a protection code?

[Xebec's Demise]

analmux,

 

Good post. You brought up quite a few interesting points.

 

People that do not like RPGs or that do no like AR are not likely to be swayed into liking them because a 20 year old game is coming out on cartridge. I think we can reasonably cross them off the list of prospective retro-gamers that will be interested in the cartridge.

 

However, there is part of one group among these that may likely be interested and that is the hardcore Atari enthusiasts, many of which likely read these forums. They only enjoy playing on actual Atari hardware and they are interested in any new hardware that comes out for the Atari. Any game coming out on an Atari 8-bit cartridge that they can plug into their actual Atari 800xl will draw their attention. I say; whether it's their first time playing or 1000th time, don't provide an easy way to cheat, which if they choose to do, will spoil the game. As with any game, once you begin making backups, hacking the game and using the cheats, the game begins losing it's magic, mystery, danger, and resulting excitement and fun.

 

 

Everyone that has played AR had a point where they were playing the game without cheats and backups. For some it may have only been a few minutes, others days or months, it really depends on how long it took you to find out about the cheats and decide to use them or bother to begin making disk copy backups. But think back, if you can remember, to those first moments and experiences in Alternate Reality, I am sure that they were very exciting and thrilling if not for the danger and realism of living in an alternate reality, then for no other reason than because the graphics and content surpassed that of any other Atari 8-bit game that you had played.

 

 

Of course everyone reacts differently and may or may not have enjoyed the danger and realism of the experience, but it definitely was a very perilous, challenging alternate reality. And, I think that is the point of the game, an alternate reality, thus, the title. To keep true to an alternate reality, you should not be able to cheat death or the abilities of your life. It may have not been fun to die, but in what video game do you not die? That is the point of most video games, to survive as far as you can before dying. If the intent of the game was for you to not die, then there would have been a resurrect option in the main menu or even on the “You're DEAD!” screen.

 

 

To kill or resurrect a character, all it takes is the changing of a few bytes on a character disk. Also, there is no "Continue?" option on the death screen. When you die, you're dead. The point is, if there was not supposed to be permanent death within Alternate Reality, there are many ways that Philip Price could have allowed you to continue after dying. He was masterful and creative in programming the game, a resurrect or continue option would have been no challenge at all for him to add, but he did not. In other games that are not meant to be an alternate reality or virtual world, you can wander about as a ghost and get resurrected at a healer. But, that is not the case with AR and was likely not included because it would not be very true to an alternate reality. Philip Price designed the game to be as much of an alternate reality as possible on the 48k Ataris of the time.

 

It's very common that in most games, when you die, you start over and try again. Now with AR, that was a real pain because of rebooting. But, with the cartridge, the pain of having to reboot the game is gone and makes death much more bearable. As with other video games, if you die on the cartridge, you can start playing again immediately and that will make the game much more like other video games and much more playable and fun.

 

Edited June 19, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[analmux]

As with any game, once you begin making backups, hacking the game and using the cheats, the game begins losing it's magic, mystery, danger, and resulting excitement and fun.

 

I've made my point on this, with arguments which I won't explain again. This does not apply to everyone. After 100000 times of playing SMB2&3 on Nintendo (with/without cheating) I still love the games, for the whole game design is what gave me that magic experience. Living or dying was just a side effect.

 

But, that is not the case with AR and was likely not included because it would not be very true to an alternate reality.  Philip Price designed the game to be as much of an alternate reality as possible on the 48k Ataris of the time.

 

About the realism of this: f.e. Entering a Tavern takes as long as the loading of the data (about 30 seconds). In real life it would (if you're not crippled ) take you only 3 seconds: now, how realistic is this??

 

It's very common that in most games, when you die, you start over and try again.  Now with AR, that was a real pain because of rebooting.  But, with the cartridge, the pain of having to reboot the game is gone and makes death much more bearable. As with other video games, if you die on the cartridge, you can start playing again immediately and that will make the game much more like other video games and much more playable and fun.

 

Okay, that's a good argument. But to fire up the AR engine (with original disks) it already takes a few minutes. On the flashcart it could take a lot less. So when you die, you start making a new character, and play on within a few seconds. That's really not differing that much from rebooting after backup.

[analmux]

but indeed, let's discuss this general thing on the off topic boards, I would like to stop taking part in this discussion now, I've given enough arguments and counter-arguments now IMHO.

 

Anyway: Much respect to Wrathchild for putting his spare time into this project.

[Xebec's Demise]

..and another thing @ Xebec: remember that Wrathchild is doing this all in his spare time, so I don't think you should expect him doing what you want i.e. making cheating more difficult. As I said (well argumented) before: big teams of people get paid for jobs like making protection code, or did I read somewhere that you're going to pay Wrathchild to make a protection code?

877084[/snapback]

 

Once again, it's not about what I want. The discussion is about what is best for the game cartridge. That is the problem here, a couple of you disagree with me and because of that you are basically telling me personally that I should not get what I want as if my opinion in the discussion is not as worthwhile as yours and someties as if I have the final say or as if my opinion is actually more important than yours and you act as if the decision is going to be made by me alone. Nobody appointed me as the project lead, so why are you acting as if whatever I write is a threat to what you believe? Instead we would all be better off if you disagreed and then provided reasonable arguments as to why you disagree. Otherwise, what is your real motive in posting?

 

As far as paying Wrathchild to add some extra protection code to the game or prevent backups and cheating, I would be happy to! I have already made a donation and have pledged to donate more, right in these very threads, in case you missed it.

 

Wrathchild, if leaving out character backups, whether they be disk based or cartridge based is going to cost you any extra time and work, PM me and I would be happy discuss a contribution to cover the extra effort.

 

And, Wrathchild, thank you for working on what will be the greatest Atari 8-bit cartridge conversion ever! I hope that you have the time to read and seriously consider all of our discussion towards the project.

[analmux]

OK just a final word:

 

Once again, it's not about what I want.  The discussion is about what is best for the game cartridge......  as if I have the final say or as if my opinion is actually more important than yours and you act as if the decision is going to be made by me alone.

 

Wrathchild, if leaving out character backups, whether they be disk based or cartridge based is going to cost you any extra time and work, PM me and I would be happy discuss a contribution to cover the extra effort.

 

Well, these two things I quoted are pretty well contradicting each other, huh??

 

Instead we would all be better off if you disagreed and then provided reasonable arguments as to why you disagree.

 

Don't talk nonsense: I gave you my arguments. And the only reason I'm replying to this thread is that you consequently use buggy arguments, and somebody needs to debug them.

 

----------

 

So at this very moment you're acting as if you don't have any influence on Wrathchilds decisions. But lateron you're offering donations to push your preferences. Then you accuse others that they think you're a dictator, while most people gave just arguments. The way you reacted on that asked for some 'juvenile' responses and jokes. You can't stand that (which is very poor) etc. etc.

 

I finally tried to bring back discussion instead of jokes, but soon found out that you're not the person I like to discuss things with any further, so it's now time to put you on *ignore*

[Xebec's Demise]

Whatever, you seem to keep losing your temper, that's fine. The fact that people are getting so involved in the discussion only further shows that this is a worthwhile project that people care about. You will be back and I am sure you will reply to my posts. Does ignoring me really help?

 

I was not specifically refering to you anyway. I thought your last post was good and brought up some good points and even told you so. But, then immmediately after that with your next post, you went right back into the same old pattern of claiming that I should not expect Wrathchild to do what I want. I don't. I will be happy if he only considers my advice. Of course, I believe I am right and would like to see my recommendations followed. But, that does not devalue the opinion of anyone else who wishes to register for this forum and add their input, nor do I think it does. On this forum we are all equally equiped, it's fair. We can all write what we wish and we are all using the same software, aren't we? I am not going to put you on ignore because I don't agree with you or don't like what you write. Actually, analmux, I believe we are close in opinion, but our personalities are clashing. I don't let this bother me and I will not be ignoring you, ever.

 

I am not donating to push my ideas. I am donating regardless, because I think the project will make a great addition to the Atari 8-bit community and I hope others make contributions for the same reason also. I may not be interested in an AR cartridge that allows backups and cheats, but I am not going to ask for my money back if Wraithchild allows them. The donations should only be made in appreciation of his contribution to the A8 community and that is what I thanked him for with my donation. You dont beleive me, ask him yourself.

Edited June 19, 2005 by Xebec's Demise

[deathtrappomegranate]

Once again, I find myself in agreement with analmux about this.

 

Unfortunately, I think that this topic is deteriorating to the point of monotony, and is probably at risk of being locked by the moderators.

 

So, I'll say what I think now and then leave this topic alone.

 

AR:The City allowed character backups. The official documentation encouraged character backups. The original game disks include a utility specifically designed to backup characters. Short of actually asking PP what he thinks (which isn't a bad idea, BTW), that is about as good an indication as it's possible to have as to whether character backups are an integral part of the game.

 

The fact that various actions in the game, including the restoration of backup characters, took some time, is simply an artefact of the technology of the time. 1050s and 810s are slow beasts. Imagine all of this on cassettes!

 

Who is likely to buy the cart? Enthusiasts, that's who. People who like the game, or the genre. People who have Atari hardware. People who are willing to spend money on projects such as this. People who appreciate the work that has gone into the conversion, and want to encourage Wrathchild and others to contribute to the A8 community. Is anyone really going to buy a cart conversion for a 20+ year-old computer system, simply to cheat?

 

If someone did buy the cart, and "cheated" - so what? Does that harm anyone who wants to build a character from the ground up, or compare their character with others? Well, if there was a "competition" and someone cheated, then their "victory" would be a hollow one. No-one is giving away prizes here. And it would be difficult to do that anyway, in a game that has no goal, and no scoring system, as such.

 

IMO the conversion should do what the original game does, with the sole exception of replacing disk I/O with cart I/O. That way it would be faithful to the original, but would use the advances in technology in a way that preserves the integrity of the original.

 

However, none of the "observers" here gets to decide. We should all be grateful that a talented coder has decided to do this for the A8 community, and just decide to buy the finished product, or not, as seems appropriate.

 

@Xebec - none of this is meant as a personal attack. I love your enthusiasm about this game, and I look forward to hearing more of Liah's exploits. I'm very glad to see you posting here and at Atarimania, and I hope that you'll be around for a long time. Maybe we can't all agree, but hopefully we don't have to fall out because of it.

Edited June 19, 2005 by deathtrappomegranate

[danwinslow]

Once again, it's not about what I want. The discussion is about what is best for the game cartridge.

 

You may think so, but the discussion is really about what you want. You think that you know 'what is best for the game'. That is also what you want. Anybody who disagrees with you, therefore, does not have the best interests of the game at heart. Most of us are avid gamers, so we probably just don't understand. And even if we do understand, but yet still disagree, there is no chance at all that we are right, because....YOU are right, and you know that. So there's no point. We are either stupid or secretly hate the game. Because you, Xebec, are right, and if we just listened to you and thought about it, we would see that too. Because it is whats the best for the game, and we like games, and you, Xebec, are right. You are just plain right. Why can't we see this? It should be easy. I mean, with you being right and all, and it being the best for the game and our playing experience. I mean, its so clear. To you. Who are right. You might have toyed with the idea of pretending that you WEREN'T right...that maybe other people's opinions might be right...or at least valid....but, that would mean that they disagree with you and yet are still right, and that is an impossibility, as you very clearly know that YOU indeed are very, very right.

 

Right?

Edited June 19, 2005 by danwinslow

[Xebec's Demise]

I don't see any reason to lock a thread that people are heavily participating in. The very fact that people are getting so involved in the discussion only further shows that this is a worthwhile project that people care about and that people do want to discuss it. As long as people can keep the discussion civililzed and on-topic, the discussion should continue. Otherwise it will just spread to other threads and new threads will be created, which will disorganize the discussion.

 

That said, I appreciate your post, deathtrappomegranate. Your posts are always well written. And, I agree that Philip Price is the only one who could answer how his original design was intended, that is if he still remebers! I have seen many discussions where players have asked him about game specifics and he has replied that he does not recall. It would be great if he dropped in on this discussion! Philip?!

 

However, I cannot agree with your statement that AR:The City "allowed" backups. You could just as easily say that AR:The City "allowed" character editing because you could do it, or even that it "allowed" you to forever raise your stats with guilds, by also making backups of your disk 2, side 1. I consider all three to cheat the game in some way, some less directly than others, but just because you can do them does not mean that they were intended be "allowed" by Philip. I don't think very many programmers want their game designs to have loop-holes or cheats.

 

Just because you could copy a character disk and end up with a backup of your character does not mean that the original intention of Philip Price was for you to do so. If his intention was to allow people to cheat death, he could have made it real simple to ressurect a character, right from the game menu with only a few lines of code. Characters on a character disk are not erased, they only have a few bytes changed to indicate that the character has already been loaded.

 

So, there was a "Disk Copier" but documentaion for disk based games typically recommended making backups of your disks and keeping the originals in a safe place (of course this would only be done with the disks you actually spent the most time playing AR, disk 2 side 1 and disk 2 side 2). At any rate, it was not called "Character Disk Backup." I will agree that the guidebook recommends backing up your character often, but the book was written by a corporation, the marketing director no less, and not Philip Price. I think Philip Price designed Alternate Reality to be an alternate reality, including death. He went to more trouble than any other game designer that I can think of at the time to make his Alternate Reality game as realistic and true to life as possible. If one thing is certain about life, it's death.

 

So, I don't think Philip Price meant for people to use the Disk Copier specifically for being able to make endless amount of copies of characters or as a device that was provided for "allowing" players to cheat his game out of the very real death that his alternate reality provided, otherwise. The Disk Copier was designed to copy and make backups of your disks in the event that a disk went bad. I have a hunch it was Datasoft and Datasoft marketing that came up with such a scheme as adding the recommendation to backup your character often into the guidebook in the belief that it would help sell the game better as some people were complaining of the level of difficulty.

 

I have seen this happen often. Ultima Online by Lord British A.K.A. Richard Garriott has been entirely mutiliated by Electronic Arts as a result of some of the same faulty marketing ideals, such as trying to please the few who complain by giving them everything that they ask for rather than sticking to the game designer's values, maintaining the original design and integrity of the game. Richard Garriott eventually ended up leaving the game company he created, OSI, and leaving all his legacy of Ultima games and Ulitma Online in the hands of corporate EA as a result of disagreements, that is pretty harsh. Ultima was his baby.

Edited June 19, 2005 by Xebec's Demise