Atari Charles Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) Cyplix NTSC with manual is now for sale at 8-Bit Classics: http://www.8bitclassics.com/product_info.php?products_id=699 Customer Comments: http://atari2600duds.sitesled.com/graygames.html Edited February 6, 2006 by Atari Charles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trade-N-Games Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 How long will they be forsale? And when do you think they will be ready? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neotokeo2001 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 $50.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 $50.00 1002712[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetset Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Holy crap Raymond! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Why is this game cost so much? Not that I don't think you have the right to charge whatever you want for it, I just don't understand why $50 and not say $20 to $30 like all other homebrews? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay2068 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Why not $100... It's a sellers market.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari Charles Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) The carts should be ready within two weeks. There are some parts they are waiting for. The carts sold and manufactured by 8 Bit Classics with be available indefinitely as they are a regular product made and carried by 8 Bit Classics. Most homebrews and go from about $20 to $40. 8 Bit Classics and myself figured out what the carts cost to make, the time to make them, labels, manuals, etc, and how much we would like to make on each sale. It is a sellers market to an extent. The limited and signed Cyplix NTSC run for example went for a lot more new and on the used market has been sold for even more. If a person wants a Cyplix NTSC with manual then they will buy it for $50. If a person doesn't want a Cyplix NTSC with manual, then they won't buy it for even $10. For me and others $50 for an unsigned regular run Cyplix NTSC with manual is a reasonable price. Edited January 19, 2006 by Atari Charles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 $50 is ridiculous. My cap is $25. Sorry, but that's where I draw the line. I like what you did with it and hope the lack of sales does not discourage you from hacking other games in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600 Forever Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Most homebrews and go from about $20 to $40. Not including games that have boxes, the homebrew games in the AtariAge store range in price from $18 to $25, and these all include manuals. Not sure where you're getting that $40 figure from, except to make your price look more reasonable. Cyplix isn't even a homebrew game, it's a hack. The two 2600 hacks that AtariAge has in their store (Venture II and X3V0LuX) are $13 and $15 respectively, and those both include manuals. 8 Bit Classics and myself figured out what the carts cost to make, the time to make them, labels, manuals, etc, and how much we would like to make on each sale. I know AtariAge will make individual 4K labeled carts for $12 (which presumably includes some profit for them), so seems you guys are looking to make a healthy profit on these. If a person wants a Cyplix NTSC with manual then they will buy it for $50. That's pretty optimistic of you--I doubt you'll sell many copies of this hack at $50 a pop. Even the various "limited edition" reproductions that have been sold over the years (Snow White, Bugs Bunny, Combat Two, Realsports Basketball, Elevator Action, the UA games, etc), which included high-quality boxes and are eminently more collectible than Cyplix, were typically less than $50. At least you're pretty clear that you're doing this for the money. I've heard through PM, that you tried to charge someone $92 for a signed copy, you must be out of your friggin mind. Bottom line... YOU ARE A GREEDY LUNATIC! [back to our regular program] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 How can you call Cyplix a Homebrew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Making your own carts even from RETAIL PRICES would cost no more than say: 7 dollars for the board 2 dollars for the EPROM 50 cents worth of soldier 1 dollar for the shell 1 dollar of uber high grade paper for the label & manual 1 dollar worth of ink for manual & labels That adds up to $12.50 USD, So even say double that for your time & efforts hacking the game and building the carts that makes a total of $25 USD taking into account full market value for all parts AND still doubling your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uosipa llamxew Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If anyone would like to upgrade the label on their old Cyplix cartridges, the artwork is online to print. Making your own carts even from RETAIL PRICES would cost no more than say: 7 dollars for the board 2 dollars for the EPROM 50 cents worth of soldier 1 dollar for the shell 1 dollar of uber high grade paper for the label & manual 1 dollar worth of ink for manual & labels That adds up to $12.50 USD, So even say double that for your time & efforts hacking the game and building the carts that makes a total of $25 USD taking into account full market value for all parts AND still doubling your money. 1002915[/snapback] Well, the ROM is in these forums somewhere and I just posted the artwork, so building your own is certainly an option. My only reservation with Charles was that he didn't use my art on cheap merchandise (coffee mugs, mousepads, t-shirts etc). Otherwise, I don't care who prints the label for their cartridges, manuals, or boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari Charles Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) Cyplix is a hack and not a homebrew. There are a few errors on the page that will be addressed. The arguement that a cartridge costs so much in materials is an irrelivant arguement. That would be like saying an X-Box game isn't worth $60 because it is only a 25 cent plastic disc and a 25 cent plastic case. Look at an original Atari game that sold in the eighties. A cart would cost them about $2 to make but Nolan sold them for about $40. For shame, he wanted to make a profit. Shame on him. The human body is comprised of about $18 worth of compounds. So is a human being worth $18? mojofltr did do the label and has given me the exclusive rights to use the label in regards to the cart. I didn't have him design the labels so that cheapskates can make pirate Cyplix carts. mojofltr made the two label variations for me to put on the carts, not for people to make their own labels for pirated carts. This was an understanding between the both of us. It is really quite obvious. Obviously, I don't want people to pirate Cyplix to make pirate carts. I worked hard on the game, promotion of it, and getting everything together. I can't stop anyone from doing so if they are so inclined, but to do so would be wrong. To make a pirate copy of Cyplix is equivilant to making a pirate copy of any of the games in the Atari Age Store. I'm sure Thomas Jentzcsch would love it if you made pirate carts of his games Or maybe you can make a pirate cart of the hack X3V0LuX. People who buy Cyplix, buy it because they want to play the game on an Atari 2600 and they want to own an authentic cart. I would suggest not changing the labels of the Cyplix carts already out there you will devalue the limited carts this way. The carts that were sent out are intended to have the labels that they were sent with. This current label is intended specifically for the unsigned, unnumbered, regular release. The previous labels are and were specifically intended for the limited release carts already in route or haveing already arrived to the recipients. Yes, some of my limited Cyplix carts(the PAL and NTSC carts) did sell for between $70 to I think $92 which included shipping and yes I sold all of them(some went to contest winners and label designers) at those price points. They are signed and numbered and made in a very limited run. Whe I say I am only making so many of a limited run, I stick to that. There are only so many copies and that's it of the limited run carts which are signed and numbered. When they ran out, I have two emails from people wanting me to sell my personal copies. One offered to pay anything I wanted. The other offer was for $150. I didn't sell them as I want to keep them for myself. It would have been immoral for me to make more limited carts in the same run as there are only supposed to be so many made and that's it. Again, there is a demand for my carts whether they be in limited printing or as a regular release through an online store. Again, there is nothing wrong with making a profit. It took a lot of time to make Cyplix, to organize everything, to get them shipped here, to repackage and ship them seperately to various people in the US and Germany. Games with manuals even take more time to make. All these things take both time and money. There were many naysayers out there when I first released the Cyplix Pal Rom and advertised the carts for sale. People said I would never sell a copy; that it is a bad game, and so on. Well guess what, they were wrong. People(not everyone) liked the game. The limited run of both Cyplix PAL and Cyplix NTSC sold out. As will future limited run releases of Atari 2600 games that I have in the works. This post was to let you know that Cyplix NTSC is available as a regular release through 8 Bit Classics. This post was not to argue to whether or not I charge too much for my carts. If you think, I charge too much, don't buy the game. If you think the price is worth it, then buy the cart. Edited January 19, 2006 by Atari Charles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
san-d-2000 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) $50,- for a Hack is ridiculous The arguement that a cartridge costs so much in materials is an irrelivant arguement. That would be like saying an X-Box game isn't worth $60 because it is only a 25 cent plastic disc and a 25 cent plastic case. At least you get an orginal game and not a hack. Edited January 19, 2006 by san-d-2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 The arguement that a cartridge costs so much in materials is an irrelivant arguement. That would be like saying an X-Box game isn't worth $60 because it is only a 25 cent plastic disc and a 25 cent plastic case. Look at an original Atari game that sold in the eighties. A cart would cost them about $2 to make but Nolan sold them for about $40. For shame, he wanted to make a profit. Shame on him. Unlike you, these two examples are of business entities that spend a considerable amount of money and resources developing original titles for sale. It costs millions of dollars to develop, produce, distribute and market a single video game. Of course these companies are going to charge above the cost of materials, since they need to, at a bare minimum, break even so they may continue to remain in business. Obviously, I don't want people to pirate Cyplix to make pirate carts. I worked hard on the game, promotion of it, and getting everything together. I can't stop anyone from doing so if they are so inclined, but to do so would be wrong. To make a pirate copy of Cyplix is equivilant to making a pirate copy of any of the games in the Atari Age Store. I'm sure Thomas Jentzcsch would love it if you made pirate carts of his games Or maybe you can make a pirate cart of the hack X3V0LuX.1002961[/snapback] Most homebrew authors release the binaries to their games so that people may enjoy them in various forms, whether it be through emulation, via a flash-based cartridge such as the Cuttle or Krokodile Carts, or in dedicated cartridge form. This includes cartridges that may be sold (such as the ones in our store) or getting the game into cartridge form some other way (we sell PCBs and other parts required to do this for those inclined). You're the first person I've seen state, "Here's the ROM for my game, but it's wrong if you make a cartridge yourself, here's a $50 version you can buy." Fortunately, most homebrew authors program for the 2600 because they are interested in creating games people will enjoy and they want to get their creations into as many hands as possible. Creating cartridges is generally secondary, and if an author makes a little cash on the side, then that's a bonus. If you didn't want people to "pirate" your game (and it's just a hack at that), you should never have released the binary. And if you're going to try and use someone to help bolster your weak defense, the least you can do is spell their name properly. It's Thomas Jentzsch, which would have taken you five seconds to look up. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uosipa llamxew Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 mojofltr did do the label and has given me the exclusive rights to use the label in regards to the cart. I do not remember any such conversation. Perhaps you assumed as much. I didn't have him design the labels so that cheapskates can make pirate Cyplix carts. I made the label as a fun hobby project, not to make you money! mojofltr made the two label variations for me to put on the carts, not for people to make their own labels for pirated carts. This was an understanding between the both of us. It is really quite obvious. The first label was entered into your contest on the forum and happened to win. The art was posted in a public thread and anyone could have downloaded and printed it. I wouldn't have posted it so freely if I thought it was a big deal, really. I redrew the label on my own to fix some things that bothered me about the original. Until I posted it (again publicly) in one of your many Cyplix threads, you didn't even know it existed. So, to say that it was created exlusively for your use is wrong. That is my perspective on the whole thing. Fifty dollars for a hacked game is steep. Maybe if it came with a hand carved Cyplix case, Pac-man sockpuppet, and a pair of Kepone underoos, I'd reconsider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 @mojofltr--You should charge him royalties as should the creator of hack-o-matic and the original developer of that game which I'm assuming he already contacted and received written permission to hack then pirate for profit and cleared all existing copyright and trademark agreements with his team of lawyers just like in the real business world he spoke of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygrailvideogames.com Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 He can charge what he wants for the hack. I am sure that there are some that will pay $50 for it but not nearly as many that would buy it at $20-$25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Glad to see I wasn't the only one shocked by a $92 price on the limited edition. And $50 is still too high for me to care. I'm amazed anyone said anything, given the (almost too high) level of tolerance and chumminess around here. Glad to see that brought up in the AA forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
128bytes Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Oooh, I think I'll make a mock purchase! BTW, good thing 8-bit-classics appears to ship out of the United States. Has Canada Post sued you for libel yet over your mock accusations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uosipa llamxew Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 He can charge what he wants for the hack. I am sure that there are some that will pay $50 for it but not nearly as many that would buy it at $20-$25. 1003036[/snapback] I agree... I honestly don't care how much Charles sells these for (being crazy with the collection bug has its downfalls). I don't want royalties from those cartridges he sells. However, I did not give exclusive rights to the artwork and so I will make it available to anyone who wants to use it. If someone burns the (freely available) ROM and/or prints off the artwork for their own personal use, it seems a bit paradoxical to cry piracy! The entire Cyplix project is based on piracy! Cyplix is a hack of Bi! Bi!, which is a Taiwanese pirate of Sea Hunt. Pac-Man and the ghost monsters (no matter how you rename them) are the property of Namco. Of course, I would have an altogether different opinion of the situation if Atariage or Packrat started producing the game and selling it in their stores without Charles's consent. Not gonna happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trade-N-Games Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I would suggest not changing the labels of the Cyplix carts already out there you will devalue the limited carts Do people buy them as an investment? What is the value of a new game on the market other than the price you sell it at? We know there are at least 100 hard core collectors that have to have every single homebrew that comes out and then someone only makes a small bunch knowing they can charge more and alot of people miss out. But the normal release should be priced in lines of current market trends $25-30. You can sell them for whatever you want. I think I would rather sell 100 at $30 than 20 at $50 and for the most part the people on this board are the people who buy your games. I need to get in touch with Hozer now Thats a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitclassics Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Well I guess since my name is involved in this, I better post. Charles has emailed about the announement and the comments in regards to pricing mostly. Here is my take: The Price - Set by Charles, I made a comment during the emails back and forth leading upto the release of Cyplix at 8-Bit Classics. AtariAge pretty much sets the price point I believe. I mentioned $25 to $35 is on average the price they go for which most people are willing to pay. But I personally would rather sell more at a smaller price than fewer at a higher rate. In the long run, I would make more money and so would Charles. But this is ultimately up to him. Pricing structure - While I don't have the resources of AtariAge, my prices will be more expensive to produce. I am estimating around $12 to $15 for final cost with cartridges, eproms, boards, labels, printing, and manual. I can print the manuals in house, but don't have a paper folder or saddle stich unit, so those are being outsourced to a local shop at the moment so that is a bigger cost. Piracy - I do believe the bin file is available for download here and do agree being a homebrew/hack, most are available to public to play in emulators or make your own cartridge. Charles is in it for a profit and I would imagine wouldn't mind making some money off of his work. Even though the game is based on somebody elses work, he did spend time making a fun and challenging game. Should the bin be made public, sure for all the enjoy. That is what this scene is about. The more you give, I feel, the more you get back in return. Personally I am not a gung ho collector. The first homebrews I have purchased were in December(and still waiting). Yes I will purchase more, but I purchase ones I feel I would enjoy and don't mind paying for. The same goes for Cyplix. If Charles decides to keep it at $50, that is his choice. Will people buy it, yes. Will more people buy it if it was lower in price, of course. If we sold it at cost, they would probably flie off the shelf. So hopefully we will find a happy medium where people will find the game enjoyable enough to purchase. This is my first venture into producing a cartridge and I do hope it turns out well as I enjoy the community and my first year in business has been great! I have gotten a lot of community support with my site and products I offer. I am always looking at new ventures where the investment would have a good return. All the money I have made on my site has gone back into my site with buying more used games/hardware, the Atari labels, and other upcoming ventures. Well I guess now I am just rambling. So it is time for me to sign off Thanks, Corey 8-Bit Classics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) The carts should be ready within two weeks. There are some parts they are waiting for. The carts sold and manufactured by 8 Bit Classics with be available indefinitely as they are a regular product made and carried by 8 Bit Classics. Most homebrews and go from about $20 to $40. 8 Bit Classics and myself figured out what the carts cost to make, the time to make them, labels, manuals, etc, and how much we would like to make on each sale. It is a sellers market to an extent. The limited and signed Cyplix NTSC run for example went for a lot more new and on the used market has been sold for even more. If a person wants a Cyplix NTSC with manual then they will buy it for $50. If a person doesn't want a Cyplix NTSC with manual, then they won't buy it for even $10. For me and others $50 for an unsigned regular run Cyplix NTSC with manual is a reasonable price. 1002860[/snapback] Exclusive label? What a lie. You and 8bit set the price? Pushing The blame. Screaming piracy when all you are selling is a hack of a hack to begin with? Ignorance is not bliss. Charging $50 dollars for a hack or a hack? Shamful greed to say the least. Gonna have many peers left after this? Not likely. I hope $50 bucks was worth it. You know the big slap in the face you just gave us all. Edited January 19, 2006 by silver_surfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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