most brilliant or most stupid idea for homebrew/hack?

[lucifershalo]

I dont know what is happening with me this week end...

I know nothing about programming so I am not sure if it is "feasible"

 

I was thinking of the creation of a 2600 game NOT limited by the 4k/8k size

for example Super Mario World done in the kind of graphic style that you would find on 2600 but as it is not limited

you could do the complete game into a 2600 game

 

I suppose it could only work on emulators, etc

 

or a new game but not limited by memory size

 

so crazy idea? stupid idea?

[Robert M]

What you are referring to is called bankswitching. It is a technique for swapping the program memory around in large chunks so a program can be larger than the hardwired 4K limit. Many, many games released back in the day used bankswitching, and many homebrews use it today as well. Most emulators support several bankswitching schemes that's how they are able to play all the existing game ROMs.

 

So in short, yes you could port Super Mario world in its entirety to the VCS, but you will hit huge trademark and copyright infringement issues. Also the VCS is not the greatest machine for horizontal scrolling games since scrolling of the background is computationally expensive and limited to 4 pixel wide increments.

 

 

Cheers!

[+FujiSkunk]

There are already 16K homebrews, and maybe 32K ones as well (too lazy to look things up right now). Also, there are ways of making even bigger cartridges, up to 512K.

 

There are many things besides cartridge ROM size that would make something like Super Mario World a serious challenge, however: RAM constraints, lack of good scrolling ability, only being able to look at 4K of ROM at a time, and so on.

Edited October 8, 2006 by skunkworx

[Pixelboy]

I have to question your motives for choosing Super Mario World. Why do a 2600 version of such a massive game anyway? Just to impress and proove it can be done? You might as well just try to do a 2600 version of Super Mario Bros (the NES game), and you'll get the same kind of enthousiastic response from homebrew enthousiasts.

 

Besides, the 2600 already has some very good platformers. What we really need are big RPGs. Not only is it a barely catered niche, but it can be more easely designed around whatever bankswitching system is used. The only problem with big RPGs is that you have to devise a way for the player to save his progress, which is not an easy thing to implement on the 2600.

[supercat]

What we really need are big RPGs. Not only is it a barely catered niche, but it can be more easely designed around whatever bankswitching system is used. The only problem with big RPGs is that you have to devise a way for the player to save his progress, which is not an easy thing to implement on the 2600.

 

The Atarivox/memcard is just fine for saving game state, and the 4A50 bankswitched cart has a built-in EEPROM. A more fundamental problem with large RPGs is that they're really not what the 2600 is about.

 

I have a wonderful kernel I designed to show a 10x8 screen of 8x16 characters, each of which may independently be any of 4 colors. Minimal flicker--absolutely perfect for an Ultima-style game. But even with such a great kernel as that, in what way could a 2600 adventure game be more fun than one on a PC?

[lucifershalo]

 

So in short, yes you could port Super Mario world in its entirety to the VCS, but you will hit huge trademark and copyright infringement issues. Also the VCS is not the greatest machine for horizontal scrolling games since scrolling of the background is computationally expensive and limited to 4 pixel wide increments.

 

 

Cheers!

I meant a game like Super Mario I was not talking about a port especially

lets say a mix of Super Mario World/ Pitfall

and if I choose that kind of game, it is because Platform games are my favorite ones and on the 2600 I found them too short because of the machine limitation...

and dont forget I am not a programmer at all, I know NOTHING...it was just an idea I had in my bed....

[Pixelboy]

I meant a game like Super Mario I was not talking about a port especially

lets say a mix of Super Mario World/ Pitfall

and if I choose that kind of game, it is because Platform games are my favorite ones and on the 2600 I found them too short because of the machine limitation...

and dont forget I am not a programmer at all, I know NOTHING...it was just an idea I had in my bed....

I really don't like doing this, but as it seems you are an irregular contributor to these boards, I feel I should direct you to this thread.

 

Hope you won't take this the wrong way...

[lucifershalo]

This will be my last post for this topic, cause it is going in a direction that I dont like

I probably post in the wrong section or...

anyway, my topic was not to give ideas...

not to push programmers to do that kind of game

it was just an innocent topic from a non programmers, to get an idea if it was possible

but it seems that not everybody is pleased with that

sorry

 

CLOSED!!!

[+SpiceWare]

There are already 16K homebrews, and maybe 32K ones as well (too lazy to look things up right now).

Medieval Mayhem is 32K

[kisrael]

yeah, I didn't think the old post about "recommendations for non-programmers" was relevant, you weren't asking for "write this game for me!", just musing.

 

So you know, the most rare thing for an Atari program isn't memory: it's time. Technically you only have 2 "sprite" graphics, 2 "missile" (single block) graphics, a ball, and a playfield. You can shove these around in various clever ways (flicker, restrictions on where something showsup) to make the game look like it has more stuff, but that takes processor time... the atari isn't thinking very fast relative to how quickly the electron beam is zipping a picture to the screen, so to do all that clever rearrangement, the atari programmer has to be very very smart.

 

There are some restrictions on memory, ROM (how big the program is) and RAM (how many details it has to remember) but really, it's *time* that makes something like a Super Mario Brothers / Pitfall hybrid difficult.

Edited October 9, 2006 by kisrael

[lucifershalo]

thanks kisrael for your explanation

I can understand a bit more now

and good work all of you programmers

keep bringing us some new homebrews and hacks

we are appreciating that a lot!!

[MS-DOS]

Ah hello there, sorry to disrupt your topic here but I do have footage of a (sort-of) Super Mario / Pitfall game. It is actually the NES game, with a graphics hack to make it look like it's being played on a Atari 2600.

 

 

Click here to view movie. Hosted on YouTube

 

Of cource the sound would not be that good and the text would of been blockyer, actually the text might of all been deleated leaving just a set of numbers to display score.

[jaybird3rd]

Ah hello there, sorry to disrupt your topic here but I do have footage of a (sort-of) Super Mario / Pitfall game. It is actually the NES game, with a graphics hack to make it look like it's being played on a Atari 2600.

That doesn't look anything like a 2600 game; those graphics are at least four different kinds of impossible.

[MS-DOS]

Well yeah... but its hard to change the colors in a nes rom, oh and yes I know there could of been some changes in the objecs, like the pipe could be one solid rectangle, same with the clouds, heck away with the clouds. I think the Mario charactor was pretty good though, but too many frames of animation perhaps?

Edited October 16, 2006 by MS-DOS

[jaybird3rd]

Well yeah... but its hard to change the colors in a nes rom, oh and yes I know there could of been some changes in the objecs, like the pipe could be one solid rectangle, same with the clouds, heck away with the clouds. I think the Mario charactor was pretty good though, but too many frames of animation perhaps?

Here are the problems that leap out at me when I look at that mockup:

1. Way too many letters/numbers on the same scanline in the score display and startup screen.
   
2. Too many colors in the sprites, or more specifically, sprites that have more than one color on the same scanline. Maybe you could do this by creating different color tables for different sprites and overlapping them, but there are too many characters on the same scanline to make this possible (at least without seizure-inducing flicker).
   
3. Many of the large objects (pipes, blocks, stairs, foliage, etc) can only be done with playfield, but I see large objects of at least three different colors on the same scanline in that mockup. There's probably not enough time to change the playfield color that many times, AND rewrite the playfield bitmap, AND horizontally reposition the sprites, all on the same scanline. And speaking of the playfield ...
   
4. The smooth horizontal scrolling that this mockup exhibits isn't possible on a real 2600. There are only forty playfield "pixels" on the 2600, the rightmost half of which must be either a reflection or a repetition of the leftmost half without rewriting the playfield in the middle of the screen. Any horizontal scrolling would be much jerkier (see Vanguard for one example of this), which is why 2600 ports like Jr. Pac-Man reworked the original game to scroll vertically instead.
   

I'm sure those who have actual 2600 coding experience can probably add to this list (or set me straight if I'm misunderstanding something).

[MS-DOS]

Its as good as it gets on a NES. Thanks for giving me those tips though. Its good knowlage on my part

 

That answers my question to why the coins in the 2600 version of Mario Bros changed color when they moved from platform to platform

Edited October 16, 2006 by MS-DOS

[lucifershalo]

Ah hello there, sorry to disrupt your topic here but I do have footage of a (sort-of) Super Mario / Pitfall game. It is actually the NES game, with a graphics hack to make it look like it's being played on a Atari 2600.

 

 

Click here to view movie. Hosted on YouTube

 

Of cource the sound would not be that good and the text would of been blockyer, actually the text might of all been deleated leaving just a set of numbers to display score.

 

 

Still it was funny to watch, a mario in a blocky kind of way...

[neotokeo2001]

The sprites are way too simplified. Everything doesn't have to be a square.

 

I like the idea. It was cool to see.

[espire8]

Well yeah... but its hard to change the colors in a nes rom, oh and yes I know there could of been some changes in the objecs, like the pipe could be one solid rectangle, same with the clouds, heck away with the clouds. I think the Mario charactor was pretty good though, but too many frames of animation perhaps?

Here are the problems that leap out at me when I look at that mockup:

1. Maybe you could do this by creating different color tables for different sprites and overlapping them, but there are too many characters on the same scanline to make this possible (at least without seizure-inducing flicker).
   

I'm sure those who have actual 2600 coding experience can probably add to this list (or set me straight if I'm misunderstanding something).

Well, I don't have any coding experience but I'd like to comment that you're actually, correct. Not 'maybe' but YES, it is possible to get more colors on the same scanline using two sprites overlapping each other. I'm not sure you're aware but I'm drawing a dragon sprite animation for a homebrew programer who's using the very technique you described. Checkout his work on the Medeival Mayhem Contest Page. His is the best example I can think of.

Edited October 24, 2006 by espire8

[Thomas Jentzsch]

YES, it is possible to get more colors on the same scanline using two sprites overlapping each other.

Sure it is possible, but since the 2600 only has two sprites in total, you cannot display any other sprite on the same scanline without introducing flicker. So with just 3 of those sprites, you will have to flicker at 20Hz, which is IMO already too much.

 

There are lots of other things (e.g. mid screen repositioning while drawing a solid, asymmetrical full width playfield, more than two playfield colors per scanline, smooth playfield animations) which are maybe doable one by one, but definitely not all together.

 

BTW: Great dragon!

[SeaGtGruff]

Sure it is possible, but since the 2600 only has two sprites in total, you cannot display any other sprite on the same scanline without introducing flicker. So with just 3 of those sprites, you will have to flicker at 20Hz, which is IMO already too much.

If you choose your colors right, you can get 4 colors on a scan line using just *1* player, with 30Hz flicker. Here's an example written in bB that I just posted:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...t&p=1162694

 

Obviously, this trick will have limitations and restrictions that would need to be kept in consideration and worked around. However, if you chose your colors carefully, you could have a 4-color playfield, a 4-color player0, and a 4-color player1, all on the same scan line-- 10 colors in all (the background, which is one of the four colors in each object, plus three other colors in each of the three objects, or 3 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 10).

 

MR