carmel_andrews Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 recently been watching the 'NUMEN' demo through the a800win+ emu (PC) and what a bloody good DEMo it is too I thought the 'first person' world demo was ok and the muzak was good to excellent BUT what set this demo apart from all the others i've seen on the A8 (even via an emulator) is the additional gfx demo's the main demo cut's into whilst exploring the first person world demo some of the gfx shown were to say the least outstanding to think that a 25+ year old machine like an A8 can handle all these advanced gfx coding techniques just goes to show what a great system we have, some of the gfx would make an ST or Amiga coders jaw drop on some of the gfx i think they up'd the resolution (i.e beyond the 300/200 or 192 standard atari rez) it looked more like 400/300 or something like that, basically they managed to fill in every scanline, and the colour range must have gone beyond the standard 256 (or 16x16), as on some of the gfx they seem to have more then 16 shades of 1 colour The best part of the demo for me was the 3D filled shapes that went up the centre part of the screen, they could have improved that part of it by adding lots of bouncing sprite (PMG) balls and a small ticker tape scroller at the bottom just to show off This has got to be the best A8 demo EVER....why wasn't this sort of thing dene when Atari were still making the A8, it might have encouraged more s/w houses to support the A8, seeing this demo probably would have turned most s/w companies of supporting things like the c64, speccy/amstrad etc Well done fox and heaven by the way is taquart German or Polish (and who or what is TAQUART) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gury Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 NUMEN demo is really amazing. It gives us new ideas what A8 is capable of. It expands the possibilities for games on this platform, which I believe can be realized. One of them is Doom / Wolfenstein clone, in GTIA mode. I sometimes dream about Atari world in which we could join in, like in chatroom. If this is not applicable with old modems, we could find a solution with enhancing Atari emulator to allow multiple connections to such a world Dream on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Taquart is polish. And, btw.... the Atari8 Prods need good votes here: http://www.pouet.net/prodlist.php?page=1&a...p;order=thumbup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 TQA is an 99% polish demo group... i am the only "foreign" coder/designer and i am from Germany... well... Numen was planned for years we had a lot of email discussion what could be possible and what not, f.e. i dreamt of HIP/TIP-realtime FX and Fox (yes...buddy... i still have the emails... ) said... no way... i told him that a bump mapper would look very good in that mode... and finally he came up with a GBA demo of the screen (YES...) and shortly after that with an Atari800 version and to be honest it looks great... same goes to the TIP-Flower-Plasma which is a kind of Amiga influence... but again looks very good... the 1st soundtrack i personally preferred more... but the one which is now used is now my fave...the first one was more catchy and more "demo"-like but i was overruled... but i never found any bad msx from X-Ray anyway... rubik's cube is a killer and the "shuffle puzzle" one is brilliant code by Eru... the rayshaded tunnels were existing for several years on our harddiscs as most of the code... it just wasnt put together... btw... the whole demo was written in C and was simulated on PC with a "atari800"-screenmode implemented in C... i guess i have it here as well somewhere... for the sticky man is motion captured... i have the editor here as well... the turbo vector screen is very "oldschoolish" but Fox made some really fast code for small atari and it seems like a reminder to his first cool demo you know which one... ... transparency was kind of my idea as well as i had some code running but Fox made it quicker and faster which become the viking ship... maybe i have the original gfx drew by famous Dracon (DRC)... i love the rythm of the demo and the flow... maybe little bit too much "portal" but very good indead... Fox and Eru are 6502 coding wizards so thats why you dont find any code of mine in Numen... i am too bad in such things... but i am the oldest one anywere... when we released Numen i couldnt even watch it as i had no fast PC for running atari800win in 320k mode and i have just 130xe so max. of 128k ram... anybody wants more inside information? just let me know... btw. numen.scene.pl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+warerat Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 TQA is an 99% polish demo group... i am the only "foreign" coder/designer and i am from Germany... well... Numen was planned for years we had a lot of email discussion what could be possible and what not, f.e. i dreamt of HIP/TIP-realtime FX and Fox (yes...buddy... i still have the emails... ) said... no way... i told him that a bump mapper would look very good in that mode... and finally he came up with a GBA demo of the screen (YES...) and shortly after that with an Atari800 version and to be honest it looks great... same goes to the TIP-Flower-Plasma which is a kind of Amiga influence... but again looks very good... the 1st soundtrack i personally preferred more... but the one which is now used is now my fave...the first one was more catchy and more "demo"-like but i was overruled... but i never found any bad msx from X-Ray anyway... rubik's cube is a killer and the "shuffle puzzle" one is brilliant code by Eru... the rayshaded tunnels were existing for several years on our harddiscs as most of the code... it just wasnt put together... btw... the whole demo was written in C and was simulated on PC with a "atari800"-screenmode implemented in C... i guess i have it here as well somewhere... for the sticky man is motion captured... i have the editor here as well... the turbo vector screen is very "oldschoolish" but Fox made some really fast code for small atari and it seems like a reminder to his first cool demo you know which one... ... transparency was kind of my idea as well as i had some code running but Fox made it quicker and faster which become the viking ship... maybe i have the original gfx drew by famous Dracon (DRC)... i love the rythm of the demo and the flow... maybe little bit too much "portal" but very good indead... Fox and Eru are 6502 coding wizards so thats why you dont find any code of mine in Numen... i am too bad in such things... but i am the oldest one anywere... when we released Numen i couldnt even watch it as i had no fast PC for running atari800win in 320k mode and i have just 130xe so max. of 128k ram... anybody wants more inside information? just let me know... btw. numen.scene.pl It's an impressive demo. My only reservation is that I can't run it on my native NTSC hardware... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 oh... Carmel... Numen does not use any "undocumented" feature of the hardware... all was available in 1979 or at least GTIA machines... (ok... RAM missing). the "30 shades" but is a simple "interlace" (in x and y resolution) technique but utilising a "bug" in the GTIA called HIP... http://www.s-direktnet.de/homepages/k_nadj/hip.html which was found in 1996... the intelligence lies here in the gfx conversion routine mainly but the HIP-BUMP is really hard to do FAST... as we have 200 DLIs running (ok...Fox uses more interleaved "2600"-like kernel-code... ) the "blocky" but very usefull "mode9++" and "mode10++" uses the "turbo mode9++" which Fox invented by using the internal Antic buffer for duplicating the scanlines... kind of FLI from c64... this mode has not be used very often f.e. i havent seen it used "dynamicly" as you can trigger each scanline separatly... so it would be easy to do a "water surface effect"... http://www.s-direktnet.de/homepages/k_nadj/mode9++.html rest is very clever code, a lot of maths and simply art... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 and with "written in C" i ment the effects were tested on PC in C++ in the described "atari simulated resolution" first... of course numen is 6502-pure optimised assembler... btw. Numen cames from "Genius" if i am right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Howdy Heaven Could it be that you have ancesters that came from Hungary? But, let's get back on topic: This mode 9++ and 10++ is neighter HIP nor RIP I guess? I already have your text about the HIP format on my site (I just have to check out if I have to update it. I've already seen that the emailaddress has changed), so I'ld like to add the mode 9++ and 10++ text too. But I have to be sure there isn't another name for it. (Which would be easier I guess) BTW, Ken (Metalguy66) thinks separate ANTIC and CPU access can result in demo's never seen before on the Atari 8 bit computer. Unfortunately, he doesn't have time to work on something like that. Maybe you could do it?! Greetings Mathy (who has an XEGS that has 1MB+64kB of memory, full software control over BASIC, MC, OS and selftest, and separate ANTIC and CPU access. While using only $D301) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xebec's Demise Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 An outstanding Atari demo...no matter how many times you see it. What does Numen mean? How about TQA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) NUMEN demo is really amazing. It gives us new ideas what A8 is capable of. It expands the possibilities for games on this platform, which I believe can be realized. One of them is Doom / Wolfenstein clone, in GTIA mode. I sometimes dream about Atari world in which we could join in, like in chatroom. If this is not applicable with old modems, we could find a solution with enhancing Atari emulator to allow multiple connections to such a world Dream on... I've watched this demo about ten times, just last night as well, and it is an amazing demo. But after watching that FPS engine I've come to realize that is really too slow for a good Doom like game, FPS shooters nead a faster frame-rate. I've played 32-bit FPS games that are too slow. But, it would make an EXCELLENT graphic engine for a 3D RPG game! I could really see an Ultima type RPG with this engine. Or something like Alternate Reality. Could I interest anyone in an 8-bit ElderScrolls/Morrowind RPG? It would also work well as a simpler adventure game engine too, but I just don't think I could enjoy and FPS shooter with this graphic engine. In any case, IF it could be done on a 64k Atari, it would take a LOT of disk space and constant loading, but it could be made to take advantage of expanded memory systems&emulators too. Edited November 8, 2006 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gury Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 True, but it is still viable to port it in simple terms. Unfortunatelly, DLIs on every scan line and complicated inner-kernels in DLIs slow down things. But hej, this is 8-bit machine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 True, but it is still viable to port it in simple terms. Unfortunatelly, DLIs on every scan line and complicated inner-kernels in DLIs slow down things. But hej, this is 8-bit machine Now, imagine how much more it would slow down once there was a cast of characters in place moving around and weapons fire, etc. NONE of the is in the demo, there are a couple characters standing still, but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Howdy Gunstar In any case, IF it could be done on a 64k Atari, it would take a LOT of disk space and constant loading, but it could be made to take advantage of expanded memory systems&emulators too. Most of us have (or can easily get) harddrives, SIO2PC, RAMdisks or even DVDdrives connected to their 64kB Atari. I'ld really like to see a game or even a demo that takes advantage of the possibiliy to access 1MB or even up to 16MB of harddrive space. Greetings Mathy (who has an XEGS with a 1MB RAMdisk and has booted his XE of of a CD) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Howdy Gunstar In any case, IF it could be done on a 64k Atari, it would take a LOT of disk space and constant loading, but it could be made to take advantage of expanded memory systems&emulators too. Most of us have (or can easily get) harddrives, SIO2PC, RAMdisks or even DVDdrives connected to their 64kB Atari. I'ld really like to see a game or even a demo that takes advantage of the possibiliy to access 1MB or even up to 16MB of harddrive space. Greetings Mathy (who has an XEGS with a 1MB RAMdisk and has booted his XE of of a CD) Oh, I agree it would be fantastic to see a game that large, but it has to be worth someone's while to make such a huge game and I was thinking of the lowest common denominator in potential user base. Such a game could also take advantage of the 8meg (1MB) Maxflash cartridges too. But a clever programmer(s) could make it work with the lowest common denominator (48/64k&floppy drive), but take advantage of many different expandibility options too, like extra memory and advanced I/O devices like those above. Having an SIO2PC device really allows the use of all PC formats like CD/DVD/HD too. I have CD's full of 8-bit software that I just put in my PC CD drive and mount it to A.P.E and boot up my Atari too. I boot up my ATOS GOS this way using a 16MB disk image. Edited November 8, 2006 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 If heaven isn't coding 6502, then why does the NUMEN demo give some credit(s) to Heaven... unless s/he did something else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 ehm... ever written a 64k game? if so...you can imagine to fill 1MB of game content... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Carmel... simply because i was part of the process... http://numen.scene.pl/tech.html why do get Peter Jackson credits for King Kong or Lord of the Rings? he is not the actors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 and i am male... http://www.blogger.com/profile/6481007 http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Taquart if you ment our female member look at Meg... http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Meg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 but i hope you have seen the numen movie as well? the guys are really crazy... http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Numen_The_Movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Why does the Numen demo need 320K? Is it just to fit all that code into memory at once? Could it be re-written to load parts of it into memory at a time on a 64 or 128k system? How much memory was the 'Vector' game using this engine going to require? And how much of that game's code&data was going to be loaded into memory at once? What would have been the total memory of all the vector code, complete with level data, etc., in the finished product? Edited November 8, 2006 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 if i recall it correctly my vector prototype which i got from fox was running on 64k machine or max. 128k... i am not 100% sure but the 320k were used for the parts and for lookup tables, gfx, unrolled loops etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 but i hope you have seen the numen movie as well? the guys are really crazy... http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/Numen_The_Movie Is that a "making of the Numen demo" movie or what? That is what i looks like judging by the pictures. I can't watch it as I have very slow dial-up net connection and a couple hundred megabytes would take a couple days for me to download. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Howdy Gunstar But a clever programmer(s) could make it work with the lowest common denominator (48/64k&floppy drive), but take advantage of many different expandibility options too, like extra memory and advanced I/O devices like those above. I meant to say that since a lot of us have more then 64kB plus SSDD available nowaday, why not use it for something usefull, like extra features/effects/sounds/whatever in a game. There are some games that require one to swap disks. With up to 16MB available, you don't have to swap disks anymore to get to more stuff. Having an SIO2PC device really allows the use of all PC formats like CD/DVD/HD too. I have CD's full of 8-bit software that I just put in my PC CD drive and mount it to A.P.E and boot up my Atari too. I boot up my ATOS GOS this way using a 16MB disk image. I don't have SIO2PC. I booted my XE off a CDROM that was connected via my BlackBox. The CD was burned (on a PC, not an 8 bit Atari) using a special piece of software that Matthias Reichl wrote for me. Greetings Mathy PS the CD contains 17 partitionlists, IIRC 1029 partitions = 1029 disk sides that used to be ATR's, made up of all the PD disks of the ABBUC available at that time (1-694, except for the disks that only run on PC's), all the ABBUC magazines including the special magazines available at that time (1-78 plus 1-34) and all the AMC-disks. Some disks had more then one or two sides. I guess about have of them are SD, so 128 bytes are wasted for each sector used. And the disk still only contained 330MB. Only disks that don't want to boot are those that don't like the BlackBox as far as I know. PPS My Boot CD page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Howdy Gunstar But a clever programmer(s) could make it work with the lowest common denominator (48/64k&floppy drive), but take advantage of many different expandibility options too, like extra memory and advanced I/O devices like those above. I meant to say that since a lot of us have more then 64kB plus SSDD available nowaday, why not use it for something usefull, like extra features/effects/sounds/whatever in a game. There are some games that require one to swap disks. With up to 16MB available, you don't have to swap disks anymore to get to more stuff. Having an SIO2PC device really allows the use of all PC formats like CD/DVD/HD too. I have CD's full of 8-bit software that I just put in my PC CD drive and mount it to A.P.E and boot up my Atari too. I boot up my ATOS GOS this way using a 16MB disk image. I don't have SIO2PC. I booted my XE off a CDROM that was connected via my BlackBox. The CD was burned (on a PC, not an 8 bit Atari) using a special piece of software that Matthias Reichl wrote for me. Greetings Mathy PS the CD contains 17 partitionlists, IIRC 1029 partitions = 1029 disk sides that used to be ATR's, made up of all the PD disks of the ABBUC available at that time (1-694, except for the disks that only run on PC's), all the ABBUC magazines including the special magazines available at that time (1-78 plus 1-34) and all the AMC-disks. Some disks had more then one or two sides. I guess about have of them are SD, so 128 bytes are wasted for each sector used. And the disk still only contained 330MB. Only disks that don't want to boot are those that don't like the BlackBox as far as I know. PPS My Boot CD page I agree, it would be nice to see a game or at least demo make use of HD's and the like and other upgrades. I see no reason why there would be any difference in coding a program for use with HD/CD/DVD connected to a BlackBox or Multi-MIO vs. SIO2PC&A.P.E., it would just have to be made into an .ATR disk image or the directory mounted as a mirror. So anyone with any of the above could run the software. The point being that I'm pretty sure that the SIO2PC user base is FAR larger than those that use the BlackBox&ICD-MIO boards. So however it's done, it needs to be compatible with them all and should be able to work on at least a 64k+ memory computer. Those of us with real, modern devices, attached to our computers and memory upgrades are in the minority, probably only like 1 or 2%. The rest are 48/64/128k unmodified computer users with a disk drive and maybe an SIO2PC device. Though, on the other hand, if the authors of Numen were willing to do such a big, complicated demo that could only work on 320k Atari's (I'm guessing like .0001% of the user base), then maybe they would be willing to make an entire epic adventure for that .0001% of upgraded computers. Everyone else would have to settle for playing it on an emulator( ). I'm covered. Edited November 8, 2006 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 dont undererstimate that a lot of "sceners" esp. in poland/eastern europe have expandend their machines to >320kb... and all machines running at scene parties where mainly demos are presented are not 64kram machines but 320kb... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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