1156 replies to this topic

[Omegamatrix]

Spirantho, on Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:29 AM, said:

Two notes on those ROMs:

1) Springer is weird! It doesn't work on PAL 7800s. I should try on my NTSC one. I always thought it was only NTSC 7800s that had the problem. Of course as the cart doesn't actually fit into a 7800 without a cart extender, no-one probably noticed this before!
2) Did you notice Kampf In Asteroide-Gurtel still has "Homevision" copyright text?

I do have other carts from pirate manufacturers. Do you want me to dump them? Some of them are pretty obscure (like my Supervision "Missle 3000" [sic] cart). It could take a while.

If you've got a copy of Cart Commander I can send you a copy of my database if it helps, but it's not very specific on pirates.

1. Spirantho, now that you have your cartridge extender try your other Tigervision carts on your 7800 that use 3F bankswitching:

River Patrol
Springer
Polaris
Miner 2049er
Miner 2049er Vol. II
Espial

If none of these work your 7800 doesn't like 3F bankswitching. How did you dump Springer anyhow? I had to find an older 7800 to dump that PAL Miner 2049er I had.

2. I did notice the Homevision text too and found it interesting. There are seem to be a lot of Homevision roms out there pirated by other companies.

I have a feeling dumping your other pirate carts might lead to at least one or two roms being switched. Give Rom a few days to shift through the truckload you just gave him, lol.

[Spirantho]

Omegamatrix, on Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:24 PM, said:

1. Spirantho, now that you have your cartridge extender try your other Tigervision carts on your 7800 that use 3F bankswitching:

River Patrol
Springer
Polaris
Miner 2049er
Miner 2049er Vol. II
Espial

Wish I could try a River Patrol cart.

The 7800 doesn't need to be able to run the game to be able to dump it, it seems. I'll have to try the other games though, yes....

[Rom Hunter]

Ok, all ROMS checked and added.

The T-Handle ROMS were already in our database, but all others were new for me.

I'm very glad with the Goliath ROMS.

Thanks again!

[Omegamatrix]

Spirantho, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:37 AM, said:

Omegamatrix, on Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:24 PM, said:

1. Spirantho, now that you have your cartridge extender try your other Tigervision carts on your 7800 that use 3F bankswitching:

River Patrol
Springer
Polaris
Miner 2049er
Miner 2049er Vol. II
Espial

Wish I could try a River Patrol cart.

The 7800 doesn't need to be able to run the game to be able to dump it, it seems. I'll have to try the other games though, yes....

That is strange. The PAL Miner 2049er I had didn't work at all, but I tried dumping it and it turned out to be a bad dump. Even though Springer ran on my Krok I wonder if it's 100% okay?

[Rom Hunter]

The Miner 2049er ROM you dumped works on Z26, but Spirantho's Springer dump doesn't.

[Omegamatrix]

Rom Hunter, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:02 PM, said:

The Miner 2049er ROM you dumped works on Z26, but Spirantho's Springer dump doesn't.

This is true. Springer did worked when in Z26 when I forced it to 3F bankswitching (I'm using X26 as a front end), but why didn't it detect it in the first place? Does it start up memory address begin in an unusual place? It took an older '84 7800 for me that actually played Miner before I got a good dump. Anyhow if I ever run into a PAL Springer I will try dumping it on my 7800 and compare it to Spirantho's dump. I'm confident the 7800 I have now will work, but you never know until you actually try it. For now Spirantho I would say try your NTSC Miner 2049er's on your 7800. If they don't work try dumping them anyhow and we will compare the rom you get to the rom that is out there. If it doesn't match then we know that Springer is probably bad too. If it does match then Springer should be good.

Edited by Omegamatrix, Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:19 PM.

[Eckhard Stolberg]

Spirantho, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:37 PM, said:

The 7800 doesn't need to be able to run the game to be able to dump it, it seems. I'll have to try the other games though, yes....

Actually a game that fits the 7800 cartridge slot but still doesn't work, ususally fails because of a problem with the bankswitching. I don't think it's possible to dump all banks of such a game correctly with a modified 7800. There is a small modification on Chad Schell's website to make the later 7800 consoles compatible with the Cuttle Cart 1. Maybe this modificaion also helps with 3F compatibility.

The reason why z26 works automatically with Miner 2049 is probably that a PAL dump of that game already existed and that Omegamatrix's dump is identical to the one we had for referrence.


Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Omegamatrix]

Eckhard Stolberg, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:19 PM, said:

The reason why z26 works automatically with Miner 2049 is probably that a PAL dump of that game already existed and that Omegamatrix's dump is identical to the one we had for referrence.


Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

Is that how Z26 knows which bankswitching to use then? You have to preprogram certain games to the right bankswitching? Thanks again for the newer software Eckhard. Really was useful!

[Rom Hunter]

Eckhard Stolberg, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:19 PM, said:

The reason why z26 works automatically with Miner 2049 is probably that a PAL dump of that game already existed

I never found one on the net.

[Spirantho]

The bankswitching on the Springer dump I did must be working, because we have to enable 3F bank switching specifically. If the bankswitching wasn't working when it was dumpedit'd crash out when we ran it in Z26 even with the forced 3F switching....

[Eckhard Stolberg]

Spirantho, on Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:27 PM, said:

The bankswitching on the Springer dump I did must be working, because we have to enable 3F bank switching specifically. If the bankswitching wasn't working when it was dumpedit'd crash out when we ran it in Z26 even with the forced 3F switching....

You are right. I compared your PAL Springer ROM with the NTSC one, and large parts in all banks are identical. So it must be the correct PAL dump. Now I wonder why the game doesn't work on your 7800. Maybe the port extender is slowing the signals down so much, that the bankswitching can't work fast enough for the game to play properly. For the cartridge reader that wouldn't be a problem, because it needs a while to set up the data transfer after the bankswitch anyway. But maybe the game code itself is more timing sensitive. IIRC the Miner preview copy also delayed the access to the code in a new bank after a bankswitch a bit compared to the release version.


Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Spirantho]

Eckhard Stolberg, on Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:55 PM, said:

Now I wonder why the game doesn't work on your 7800. Maybe the port extender is slowing the signals down so much, that the bankswitching can't work fast enough for the game to play properly. For the cartridge reader that wouldn't be a problem, because it needs a while to set up the data transfer after the bankswitch anyway. But maybe the game code itself is more timing sensitive. IIRC the Miner preview copy also delayed the access to the code in a new bank after a bankswitch a bit compared to the release version.

I actually tried it six ways:

Atari 7800 A (dumper), without extender: didn't work.
Atari 7800 B (normal), without extender: didn't work.
Atari 2600 (6 switch PAL), without extender: did work.
Atari 7800 A (dumper), with extender: didn't work (but did dump)
Atari 7800 B (normal), with extender: didn't work
Atari 2600, with extender: did work.

So there must be something in the way the 7800 works, or some nasty code in Springer itself, but either way it sure don't like 7800s.....

[Omegamatrix]

Rom Hunter, on Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:41 AM, said:

Thanks.

Do you also have a dump of the no-copyright PAL version?

I took a chance on a Canadian auction with a bunch of P end labels. I figured they were either PAL or some screwed up Atari Corps releases. Turns out half the lot was PAL and I snagged a no copyright PAL Asteroids. It wasn't converted very well. It bounces up and down a scan line. Anyhow, enjoy.

 Asteroids__PAL__no_copyright.BIN   8K   210 downloads

[alex_79]

Omegamatrix, on Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:24 PM, said:

... It bounces up and down a scan line. Anyhow, enjoy.

I think is an emulation issue, cause it bounces in Z26 (I use ver. 2.13), while it works fine on Stella (ver 2.3.5). The copyrighted rom shows the same behaviour.
The picture is stable on real hardware (I have the copyrighted version).

[Omegamatrix]

I also got a Goufer cart off of ePay. It is of course PAL, but the cool thing is that the Gopher rom is different then the Carrere one as it was from a pirate company. So from no PAL dump of Gopher to two very different ones in a short while! Enjoy.

 Goufer__2600_Compatible__PAL.BIN   4K   222 downloads




I did also get a PAL Condor Attack (2600 compatible) from the same seller. It worked once and rolled on my screen and then died. So far attempts to revive it have failed. I did however notice that it was double labeled so since it was already dead I tore the label off. The top lable looked like a Zellers Earth Attack, the bottom label was a Boxing label. I believe this cart has been found with both of these labels already, but the Earth Attack over the Boxing is kind of interesting.

[Omegamatrix]

As seen in this thread, RealSports Soccer (Football in most of the world) has two roms out there in NTSC. The original had an error in it and did not allow the "wraparound" feature. When the game started up you would hear a whistle. The corrected rom started up with a nice little tune. Is there also a PAL version that has the tune? Who knows. I have three 1983 soccers and a 1987 Atari Corps as well. All of them have the fixed rom. Out of my '83s two are date stamped 17 3 R. The third is missing an end label, and the forth is an Atari Corps (1987). Atari must have switched roms on the original label then before the 17th week of 1983. here is my dump, and the original dump off of the Good2600 roms. I only dumped the fixed rom of course. Other people have the original rom with the 1983 label, but I don't right now.

 RealSports_Soccer__fixed_wrap_around_rom_with_tune__NTSC.BIN   8K   168 downloads

 RealSports_Soccer__original_rom_with_no_wrap_around._Whistle__NTSC.bin   8K   261 downloads

PG]

[Omegamatrix]

On to Superman. Two different roms exist for this one as well. I can only guess that Atari was once again trying to fix an error but what it may be I don't know. First da pics:



And the results. The carts on the left side have the same rom (the Sears cart and the NTSC text label). So right away we think that Atari revised the rom as the picture labels came afterward and it is a different rom. I know there is at least one more Sears text variation, but the rom I more curious about is the Sears pic label. Crunchy do you have your rom dumper working yet?

So on to the PAL text label. My theory is that Atari converted the original rom and then converted the revised one again. Whatever the case my PAL Superman matches the Superman_(1978)_(Atari)_(PAL)_[Pirate_Release_Rev_1].bin off of the good2600. Pirate cart my ass but they probably did dump a pirate cart that used this Atari rom. Once again I have found this most interesting, but It'd take someone who can program and can look through these roms, plus possible using Listspy to see what came first in the conversions. I was very fortunate to get this PAL Superman in my Canadian lot.



Atari NTSC text and Sears text rom (note there are variations, see pic for reference):
 Superman__Atari_Text_and_Sears_Text_Label__NTSC.BIN   4K   171 downloads

Atari PAL text rom:
 Superman__Atari_Text_Label__PAL.BIN   4K   192 downloads

Atari NTSC pic rom:
 Superman__Atari_Pic_Label__NTSC.BIN   4K   171 downloads

[Omegamatrix]

Got a PAL lot of a Canadian seller on eBay.

First off Super Man by Fantastic Game.

pg]

 Super_Man__Fantastic_Game__PAL.BIN   4K   164 downloads

It's rom is slightly different then the rom I posted for PAL Superman (atari text label) earlier. I'm now using Rom's set of Roms for comparision over the Good2600. The rom Rom has for Superman (unknown) PAL matches this dump 100% according to Clonespy. The dump I did last post of text label Superman (PAL) matches roms listing of Superman (1979) (Atari, John Dunn) (CX2631, CX2631P) (PAL) 100%.

My Lastest tool, HOM3 tells me there are two lines of code that are different between these two PAL dumps. Doesn't seem like much too me, and since both my dumps matched some pre-existing dumps it's likely that it goes back to the source and maybe a cart was dumped that had bitrot, and then pirated.



A programmer could tell what these lines of code do, however I can not.

[A.J. Franzman]

Omegamatrix, on Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:07 PM, said:

On to Superman. Two different roms exist for this one as well. I can only guess that Atari was once again trying to fix an error but what it may be I don't know.

Already known:
Superman - Tips, Cheats, and Easter Eggs: Easy mode

The revision fixes this first apparently unintended cheat method by which it's possible to not be required to rebuild the bridge to finish the game.

[Omegamatrix]

pg]
pg]

- Chopper Command (Fantastic Game / Marpes)
- Normandy Landing (Never seen a Tawian cart in all red. Maybe by Fantastic Game / Marpes?? They have a multicart with this title)
- Space Robot (Dimax / Sinmax)


Clonespy 100% matches my dumps to the following roms from Rom's master list of roms (as of a July 24th download):

My dumps:
 New_Dumps_Aug_17th.zip   10K   173 downloads

Chopper Command

- Pyramid War (AKA Chopper Command) (Rainbow Vision - Suntek) (SS-004) (PAL) [a2]
- Wuestenschlacht (AKA Chopper Command) (1983) (Quelle) (262.794 1) (PAL)

Normandy Landing

- Landung in der Normandie (AKA Commando Raid) (1983) (Quelle) (876.482 1) (PAL)

Space Robot

- Robot Fight (AKA Space Robot) (1983) (Home Vision - Gem Int'l Corp.) (VCS83101) (PAL)
- Space Robot (1983) (Goliath) (1) (PAL)

[Omegamatrix]

By the way I'm making my best guess to the companies of these PAL carts from looking onto Atarimania. It's all foreign to me, lol.

[Omegamatrix]

PAL Hangman and PAL Ram It. Never dumped before. Enjoy.



 Hangman__Atari__PAL.BIN   4K   165 downloads
 Ram_It__Telesys__PAL.BIN   4K   155 downloads

[Omegamatrix]

pg]
pg]

- Pitfall! (Taiwan Cooper Black) PAL
- Mole Hunter (Taiwan Cooper Black) PAL
- Asteroid Belt (Taiwan Cooper Black) PAL
- Astro War (Taiwan Cooper Black) PAL


Clonespy 100% matches my dumps to the following roms from Rom's master list of roms (as of a July 24th download):

My dumps:
 New_Dumps_Aug_17th__2_.zip   12.2K   140 downloads

Pitfall!

- Dschungel Boy (AKA Pitfall!) (1983) (Quelle) (262.894 9) (PAL)
- Tom Boy (AKA Pitfall!) (Rainbow Vision - Suntek) (SS-005) (PAL)

Mole Hunter

- Gefaehrliche Maeusejagd (AKA Topy) (1983) (Quelle) (719.551 4) (PAL)
- Mole Hunter (AKA Topy) (Suntek) (SS-023) (PAL)

Asteroid Belt

- Great Escape (AKA Asteroid Fire) (1983) (Bomb - Onbase) (CA282) (PAL)
- Asteroid Belt (AKA Asteroid Fire) (Suntek) (SS-029) (PAL)
- Time Machine (AKA Asteroid Fire) (1983) (Goliath - Hot Shot) (83-112) (PAL)

Astro War

- Gefecht im All (AKA Space Jockey) (1983) (Quelle) (147.443 6) (PAL)

[Omegamatrix]

When I say I am comparing my dumps to Rom's Master Lists of Roms, then I mean I've downloaded Rom's collection last on a certain date and I'm using that set for my comparision. Rom is constantly updating this collection and I would imagine it gets outdated quickly. If I had one wish it would be that Rom attached dates or revision numbers to the file (ie Roms Ver 1.34, or Roms 072107). A text file showing updates to the rom collection would be golden.

Rom's Collection (of roms)

[Omegamatrix]

pg]

- 4 in 1 - Golf/ Aimpoint/ Cannon Shot/ Amphibious War (Taiwan V-Case) PAL
- Skydiver (Taiwan V-Case) PAL


Clonespy 100% matches my dumps to the following roms from Rom's master list of roms (as of a July 24th download):

Skydiver

- Skydiver (AKA Parachute) (Rainbow Vision - Suntek) (SS-030) (PAL)
- Vom Himmel durch die Hoelle (AKA Parachute) (1983) (Quelle) (719.941 7) (PAL)

Golf

- No match (2K rom)

Aimpoint

- Laser Blast (32 in 1) (1988) (Atari) (CX26163P) (PAL)

Cannon Shot

- Human Cannonball (128-in-1 Junior Console) (PAL)

Amphibious War

- No match (2K rom)


* As a side note, AFAIK 2K roms were burned on a 4K rom twice. So it is quite possible that these new dumps for Golf and Amphibious War exist in a 4K rom twice. If you are curious just take the 4K file and split it. HOM3 does it easy and well.