136 replies to this topic

[warmachine]

Nintendo really isn't that innovative.

[StanBush]

warmachine, on Sat Apr 7, 2007 3:47 PM, said:

Nintendo really isn't that innovative.

LOL - Everyone that says how innovative the Wii is just got OWNED!

To be inovative you have to be ahead of the times:

Defination:
innovative

adjective
1. ahead of the times; "the advanced teaching methods"; "had advanced views on the subject"; "a forward-looking corporation"; "is British industry innovative enough?" [syn: advanced]
2. being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before; "stylistically innovative works"; "innovative members of the artistic community"; "a mind so innovational, so original"

[DracIsBack]

swlovinist, on Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:46 PM, said:

The more systems it sells, the more it will be supported by other companies, unlike the Gamecube which sold like crap.

Once again people, the GameCube sold 22 million consoles and had 700+ games ...

[swlovinist]

The gamecube sold like crap to its counterpart, the PS2 which sold 120+ million. 22 million is a drop in the bucket for a four year life span. Nintendo themselves said that if the Wii sells like the Gamecube then they will consider it a failure. Sales figures per generation affect who is making games for you and who is not. The gamecube came in third among the last generation console wars. I dont see the Wii having that problem at all, as long as they can look long term with innovative, creative, ideas to support their unique console. They have the positive word of mouth right now, and a handful of games that are solid. The price of the Wii is really helping it as well...affordable considering the options. I look forward to what else they come up with, as today is my birthday and I put my money down on to buy the system(Thanks Rick Weis for the help and gifts!).

[AtariJr]

DracIsBack, on Sat Apr 7, 2007 5:15 PM, said:

swlovinist, on Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:46 PM, said:

The more systems it sells, the more it will be supported by other companies, unlike the Gamecube which sold like crap.

Once again people, the GameCube sold 22 million consoles and had 700+ games ...

sigh yes, people assume it sold badly, when in fact its sales figures were pretty close to that of the xbox... just microsoft had billions of dollars in advertising to make people think it was doing better.

[Jess Ragan]

These days, it's not so much the sales or the profits that determine success in the eyes of gamers, but the hype.

JR

[AtariJr]

Jess Ragan, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 1:32 AM, said:

These days, it's not so much the sales or the profits that determine success in the eyes of gamers, but the hype.

JR

which explains why xbox is still alive and kicking even though its done nothing but make microsoft lose millions upon millions of dollars...

i kinda miss the days when gaming companies had to care about quality control and popularity of a system because they didnt have such deep pockets from other markets. im actualy kinda curious where sega would be today if it also made computers, mp3 players, operating systems, tvs, and dvd players...im sure they could have lived just fine through the dreamcast ... made it live, made some commercials and print ads making it look like it was selling really well, and have come out with a next gen machine.. ah well.

im kinda curiuos for instance how long the ps3 and psp will go on for. more so the ps3 (if it continues its current trends with the ps2 outsellling it every month). woudl they take it off the market if it started to go down the tubes, or would they just feed its black hole of money into it until ps4 (kinda like xbox -> 360) hoping that the next gen will make them profit?

Edited by AtariJr, Sun Apr 8, 2007 4:50 AM.

[ninjarabbit]

I love how the Gamecube is considered a failure even though it was more profitable than the PS2 due to much lower R&D costs and strong first party sales and didn't lose $4 billion like the X Box

[Atari Master]

StanBush, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 12:43 AM, said:

warmachine, on Sat Apr 7, 2007 3:47 PM, said:

Nintendo really isn't that innovative.

LOL - Everyone that says how innovative the Wii is just got OWNED!

To be inovative you have to be ahead of the times:

Defination:
innovative

adjective
1. ahead of the times; "the advanced teaching methods"; "had advanced views on the subject"; "a forward-looking corporation"; "is British industry innovative enough?" [syn: advanced]
2. being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before; "stylistically innovative works"; "innovative members of the artistic community"; "a mind so innovational, so original"

Difference between that, and the Wii, is that the Wii only needs one controller to do all of that. That system needs many different kinds.

And the Wii isn't going anywhere. It's selling for the same reason the PS2 sold, it's affordable. You think the PS2 was drowning in great games early on? If you do, you've lost your mind.

[swlovinist]

Atari Master, you hit it on the mark...value. Console prices have gotten out of control. Time for game companies to go to the history books and remember when other companies try to release systems over 299 and see how well they did. Even with inflation, $400 to $600 is too much for a console...without a game or extra!

[Paranoid]

Heh. No matter what, this keeps getting dragged back into the Wii people defending and justifying Nintendo, and everyone else attacking Nintendo.

The thing is, from the perspective of REALITY, even though you guys keep getting your "facts" straight, your application is so "fanboy" it *makes* me want to get right back into the argument.

I'm just going to tell myself that arguing with Nintendo fanboys over a Nintendo console is like arguing with Christian Evangelicals about God.

[DracIsBack]

swlovinist, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 1:22 AM, said:

The gamecube sold like crap to its counterpart, the PS2 which sold 120+ million.

Sure.

At the same time, I'd be quite happy to take the billions and billions and billions and billions of profit that the GameCube generated, if Nintendo was willing to share it. If they agree, I'll have you over for a beer on my Yaught.

Quote

22 million is a drop in the bucket for a four year life span.

Against, the PS? Sure. In the grand scheme of console sales throughout history, don't agree. 22 million consoles is nothing to sneeze at. Again, neither is the billions upon billions of profit.

Quote

Nintendo themselves said that if the Wii sells like the Gamecube then they will consider it a failure.

Most companies do strive to do better. I agree that the Cube was a disappointment in the market, but that's not the same thing as "a bomb" like some people with cloudy memories are calling it.

The Jaguar (which I own) was a bomb, selling under a half million units. The Cube ain't.

Quote

Sales figures per generation affect who is making games for you and who is not. The gamecube came in third among the last generation console wars.

Yes, though the folks with cloudy memories tend to forget that it was a case of PS2 dominating very significantly, and XBox and GameCube far trailing it. Yet, both had hundreds of titles.

This last generation is really interesting and unique in that it's the only time I can remember three consoles selling more than 20 million units each and each having libraries of over 700 games. Before that, it was usually a 2 horse race and figures didn't get that high.

I do think a lot of people owned the Cube as a "second system" that they purchased for the first party games from Nintendo as opposed to a standalone (myself included).

But at the end of the day, I look at it like this: Did it make a bunch of money or lose a bunch of money. For Nintendo it made.

Edited by DracIsBack, Sun Apr 8, 2007 12:40 PM.

[ninjarabbit]

swlovinist, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 1:20 PM, said:

Atari Master, you hit it on the mark...value. Console prices have gotten out of control. Time for game companies to go to the history books and remember when other companies try to release systems over 299 and see how well they did. Even with inflation, $400 to $600 is too much for a console...without a game or extra!

BINGO

There has never been a sucessful system that has retailed for over $300 when it was first released. I think beyond $300 it becomes too expensive for the mainstream consumer and you get to the point where you're competing with similarly priced PCs which can do more for the money.

Quite frankly $250 with a game is better sounding deal than $400 without a game or $600 without a game. And let's not forget that the $130 PS2 was the best selling console of 2006 and that was with a full year of competition from the 360.

We're easily looking at the most expensive generation gaming and it's not just with console prices, it's also with companies nickeling and diming you for content that in previous generations you'd get for free (looking at you EA). I think it's going to get to the point where people are going say enough is enough and look for cheaper gaming options and we're seeing this already with the Wii's sucess. For example for the price of a premium 360 you can get a Wii, LoZ, WiiPlay with a remote, and $50 of VC games. Sure the hardcore will spend their money on all the extras but the mainstream isn't going to go for it.

[warmachine]

Woopee! Nintendo turned a profit on the gamecube.
That totally excuses the lack of good games when compared
to other systems.

[hex65000]

I don't think MS is afraid of competition from Nintendo. I do think most were unprepared for the degree of success (or at least demand) for the Wii.

I also think the price point of the latest group of consoles is generally beyond my threshold of pain. The Wii is almost affordable (or at least easier to justify) than the 360 or PS3. I also tend to at least find Nintendo's first party titles interesting. There are exceptions, but it happens more than I care to admit.

Not to mention I still can't think of a great reason to own a 360 or PS3. It's just me I guess...

Hex.
[ I am 'Banjo Hero'! ]

[Atarifever]

warmachine, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 8:21 PM, said:

Woopee! Nintendo turned a profit on the gamecube.
That totally excuses the lack of good games when compared
to other systems.

Yeah, Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2, Pikmin, Pikmin 2, Animal Crossing, Rogue Squadron, Rogue Squadron 2, Killer 7, Resident Evil 4, Chibi Robo, Spynx and the Cursed Mummy, the Splinter Cell games, the Prince of Persia games, Viewtiful Joe 1 and 2, Mario Sunshine, Twilight rincess, the Harvest Moon games, Smash Bros., Windwaker, Soul Calibur 2, Donkey Konga, Donkey Konga 2, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Mario Kart Double Dash, Baiten Kaitos, Baiten Kaitos: Origins, F-Zero GX, Twin Snakes, RE2, RE3, RE Zero, the Sonic Colections, the Megaman collections, Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2, etc really represent a lack of quality titles. I know they're not all exclusives, but there is not a lack of good games on the Cube, and compared to the competition, it isn't exactly left wanting.

[Numan]

You left out Eternal Darkness.

[PuddWakkr]

I don't think Microsoft is worried. It will take time but Nintendo will once again flood it's next system with last gen rehashes. I loved the N64. The sheer number of hours I logged on that system was incredible. I got the Gamecube and soon realized all the games were the same. Sure they looked better and there were some exceptions like RE4 and Metriod but overall it was N64 all over again. Now if you missed the N64 then the cube was a great system.

Paper Mario for the N64 was great. Paper Mario for the GC was great, but the same thing. I'm sure Paper Mario Wii will be great but the same thing. Sure rather than press "B" or "x" you'll wave your wii-mote but same regardless. I don't look at it from a "Kiddie" or "Mature" perspective. I look at it from a "give me something else" perspective". I know millions of gamers like these games and I don't doubt that they are good. Having said that I don't think that coming out with a different control scheme to play old games will remain fresh for that long. I really enjoyed RE4 for the Cube. One of my top 10 games ever. Do I have any interest whatsoever in playing it with a wii-mote? Nope.

The same Papermario with a different controller.
The same Mario64 with a different controller.
The same Mario Golf with a different controller.
The same Mario Kart with a different controller.
The same Mario Tennis with a different controller.
The same Zelda with a different controller.
The same Animal Crossing with a different controller.
The same Star Fox with a different controller.

I enjoyed all the above YEARS ago when they were on the 64. When Nintendo shows that the wii-mote can actually do amazing things that Microsoft's system cannot do then I think you will see Mr. Gates get concerned. I don't think Bill wakes up in a cold sweat over "Cooking Mama". Show me the games. I don't buy consoles for their controllers.

[AtariJr]

Atarifever, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 4:57 PM, said:

warmachine, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 8:21 PM, said:

Woopee! Nintendo turned a profit on the gamecube.
That totally excuses the lack of good games when compared
to other systems.

Yeah, Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2, Pikmin, Pikmin 2, Animal Crossing, Rogue Squadron, Rogue Squadron 2, Killer 7, Resident Evil 4, Chibi Robo, Spynx and the Cursed Mummy, the Splinter Cell games, the Prince of Persia games, Viewtiful Joe 1 and 2, Mario Sunshine, Twilight rincess, the Harvest Moon games, Smash Bros., Windwaker, Soul Calibur 2, Donkey Konga, Donkey Konga 2, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Mario Kart Double Dash, Baiten Kaitos, Baiten Kaitos: Origins, F-Zero GX, Twin Snakes, RE2, RE3, RE Zero, the Sonic Colections, the Megaman collections, Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2, etc really represent a lack of quality titles. I know they're not all exclusives, but there is not a lack of good games on the Cube, and compared to the competition, it isn't exactly left wanting.

yea i have all 3 last gen systems and i have more cube games than the rest. actually many of the games i own arent even up there, ikaruga anyone? well.. to be fair the most games i have for the last gen techically is the dreamcast ^.^ but most dont count that.

Edited by AtariJr, Sun Apr 8, 2007 9:58 PM.

[Jess Ragan]

PuddWakkr, on Mon Apr 9, 2007 3:07 AM, said:

The same Papermario with a different controller.
The same Mario64 with a different controller.
The same Mario Golf with a different controller.
The same Mario Kart with a different controller.
The same Mario Tennis with a different controller.
The same Zelda with a different controller.
The same Animal Crossing with a different controller.
The same Star Fox with a different controller.

How about "the same first-person shooters and Grand Theft Auto clones with the SAME controller?" Oh wait, that's Microsoft and Sony.

JR

[AtariJr]

Jess Ragan, on Sun Apr 8, 2007 8:54 PM, said:

PuddWakkr, on Mon Apr 9, 2007 3:07 AM, said:

The same Papermario with a different controller.
The same Mario64 with a different controller.
The same Mario Golf with a different controller.
The same Mario Kart with a different controller.
The same Mario Tennis with a different controller.
The same Zelda with a different controller.
The same Animal Crossing with a different controller.
The same Star Fox with a different controller.

How about "the same first-person shooters and Grand Theft Auto clones with the SAME controller?" Oh wait, that's Microsoft and Sony.

JR

i know, the one genre i cant get into besides fps, and there are dozens of them...

Edited by AtariJr, Sun Apr 8, 2007 10:56 PM.

[swlovinist]

Paper Mario on the Wii is totally different than previous Paper Mario games. It is more of an action/RPG rather than a RPG/action game. Ign has a fair review of it. While I think we will get some games that were left over gamecube titles, I dont think Nintendo is going to be all just ports. I look forward to what new stuff they show this spring.

[jbanes]

Ducking in kind of late, but here's a roundup of my opinion:

• No one is "owned" by Xavix's existence. Wii fans have long been aware of Xavix's pioneering. However, Xavix required a different controller for each game. The Wii is innovative in that it uses the same controller for all games; providing mouse, motion, 3D positioning, and classic gamepad functionality all in one well-designed package. This takes it way beyond the "cutsey controller" level to the full first-party support level.
  
• Regardless of how it did in comparison to other consoles, the GameCube was the poorest selling console that Nintendo has ever produced. (The Virtual Boy experiment does not count here.)
  
• In hindsight, the GameCube games were a great experiment that just didn't pan out. They all looked gorgeous, possibly making the GC the best-looking system of its generation. However, the gameplay was often a departure from the tried-and-true formulas. Mario Sunshine had elements of Mario 64, but the FLUDD concept just didn't provide enough variation in gameplay. In fact, it was usually quite frustrating.
  
  Double Dash broke whatever it was that made Mario Kart fun. The powerups, for example, seem to be distributed based on your position in the race, thus removing a lot of interplay between racers and their powerups. The two character element was just another thing to keep track of rather than adding any significant addition to the gameplay.
  
  Starfox Assault was very promising in the first level, then glued you to the ground in a (rather boring) 3rd person shooter. I want to ride the rail, dangit!
  
  FZero GX was just a big "WTF?" The storyline mode required you to do the most inane "training" before it would let you race. Zelda was another big "WTF?" that got a lot of negative reaction for messing with expectations. Mario Golf was the same as the N64. Metroid was pretty good, though it suffered from the horrible GC controller.
  
  The Kongas in Jungle Beat were one of the few really successful ideas that Nintendo tried out on the GC.
  
• The GC controller was another failed experiment in differentness. The idea of simplifying around a single button was a good one, but it made the buttons difficult to find. The B button required significant movement to press, and the X/Y buttons were difficult to distinguish by feel. The shoulder buttons felt all wrong with their "click" resistence. This required players to use a lot more force than they were expecting in order to press the buttons. I understand that the Z button was requested by developers, but seriously: WTF?
  
• That being said, I think that the GC taught Nintendo everything they needed to know in order to make the NDS and Wii happen. Without all the failings to go with the few successes of the GC, Nintendo would have never gotten ahold of a clear direction for the company.
  
• Paranoid, please stop antagonizing the posters.

[Paranoid]

Have you actually been following this thread? I've basically stopped responding in this thread simply because this is a big whining session among the Nintendo fanboy base and no amount of reason is going to break through to them. I'd have better luck convincing Christian that Bush is the best thing since sliced bread.

[jbanes]

Paranoid, on Mon Apr 9, 2007 3:26 PM, said:

I'd have better luck convincing Christian that Bush is the best thing since sliced bread.

*AHEM* Stop antagonizing the posters. Thank you.

More seriously:

Quote

I'm just going to tell myself that arguing with Nintendo fanboys over a Nintendo console is like arguing with Christian Evangelicals about God.

Stop antagonizing the posters. Thanks.

Edited by jbanes, Mon Apr 9, 2007 2:29 PM.