163 replies to this topic

[homerwannabee]

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:47 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:41 PM, said:

Marco, on Fri May 18, 2007 5:04 AM, said:

Well, you know my theory, everything else is rarity "not ultra rare"

If I had to make a list, it would look something like:

Atlantis II (Imagic)
BMX Airmaster (Atari)
Color Bar Generator (Videosoft)
Eli's Ladder (Simage)
Lochjaw (Apollo)
Magicard (Commavid)
Mangia (Spectravision)
Pepsi Invaders (Atari)
Sea Monster (Puzzy)
Space Tunnel (Puzzy)
Video Life (Commavid)
Xante cartridge (Xante)


Cheers,
Marco

I take it this is your rarity 9 list.

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:05 PM, said:

Homer,

I don't know any of the other hobbies you quote. I do know this hobby though, been in it for some 20 years. That experience is what I base my rarity system on. It says nothing about baseball cards. comic books or NES carts. This is Atari 2600 collecting, and I don't care much about other hobbies' ratings.

I've always found that wanting to have something is much more exciting than actually having it. That's why I still don't understand why you're so bothered if games would go from an R10 to an R9. They'd still be just as hard to find as they are now (incredibly hard, that is).

Cheers,
Marco

Why am I bothered by this. Maybe because I have 16 carts that are currently rarity 9 or higher. After this little revisionment, I would have only 2 carts rarity 9 or higher. Because with this system even a rarity 9 game becomes unatainable for many people. If you look at what Atariage defines as a rarity 10 cart, it says that this often makes up the showcase of a person's collection. It does not say something like this is often the showcase cart for all collectors in a state or country of 10 million people. Because for some reason now that because a cart has a whopping total of 12 or 18 carts it's no longer a rarity 10 cart is something that is very hard for me to swallow. Also the fact that you and Wonder have such large collections seems to make you both a little more skewed to lower the rarities of most games. You guys are both super hardcore collectors. This is not a rarity guide for the super hardcore collectors. This is a rarity guide for the average joe sixpack. For instance, a super rich person person would view a mercedes, cadillac, and lexus as something that they would not be caught dead driving. But the average person would love to own one of these cars and would consider them as uper class cars. Both of you are the super rich guys of the Atari 2600. What you guys see as nothing special is something that 98 percent of us would love to own.

I agree with them and I have no money I think the rarity does need to be lowered for a few. I only own one rarity 9 and it is Stronghold CIB, a game that probably should be a rarity 8 in all honesty. Doesn't bother me at all.

I am not going to let you get off that easy. I also know one thing about you. You used to have every rarity 9 game except Vulture Attack. I do not think that makes you anything close to an average collector. A formerly rich person is still going to view a lexus as a lower class car even if that person is driving a Geo Metro.

[Wonder007]

So if I am lowering the value of the carts, I'm also lowering the value of my collection as well. It is true that I have a substantial Atari 2600 collection but I wouldn't want to lower the value of my collection....that is dumb. I just commenting on the way I see things and trends in collecting Atari 2600 stuff. I still would value my Mercedes, Cadillac as high as they are because of the fact that I got them and paid the value that they are worth; I wouldn't want to devalue something that is expensive nor construe it that way. All I trying to convey here is that I am a realist, not an idealist.

[Crazy Climber]

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:54 PM, said:

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:47 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:41 PM, said:

Marco, on Fri May 18, 2007 5:04 AM, said:

Well, you know my theory, everything else is rarity "not ultra rare"

If I had to make a list, it would look something like:

Atlantis II (Imagic)
BMX Airmaster (Atari)
Color Bar Generator (Videosoft)
Eli's Ladder (Simage)
Lochjaw (Apollo)
Magicard (Commavid)
Mangia (Spectravision)
Pepsi Invaders (Atari)
Sea Monster (Puzzy)
Space Tunnel (Puzzy)
Video Life (Commavid)
Xante cartridge (Xante)


Cheers,
Marco

I take it this is your rarity 9 list.

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:05 PM, said:

Homer,

I don't know any of the other hobbies you quote. I do know this hobby though, been in it for some 20 years. That experience is what I base my rarity system on. It says nothing about baseball cards. comic books or NES carts. This is Atari 2600 collecting, and I don't care much about other hobbies' ratings.

I've always found that wanting to have something is much more exciting than actually having it. That's why I still don't understand why you're so bothered if games would go from an R10 to an R9. They'd still be just as hard to find as they are now (incredibly hard, that is).

Cheers,
Marco

Why am I bothered by this. Maybe because I have 16 carts that are currently rarity 9 or higher. After this little revisionment, I would have only 2 carts rarity 9 or higher. Because with this system even a rarity 9 game becomes unatainable for many people. If you look at what Atariage defines as a rarity 10 cart, it says that this often makes up the showcase of a person's collection. It does not say something like this is often the showcase cart for all collectors in a state or country of 10 million people. Because for some reason now that because a cart has a whopping total of 12 or 18 carts it's no longer a rarity 10 cart is something that is very hard for me to swallow. Also the fact that you and Wonder have such large collections seems to make you both a little more skewed to lower the rarities of most games. You guys are both super hardcore collectors. This is not a rarity guide for the super hardcore collectors. This is a rarity guide for the average joe sixpack. For instance, a super rich person person would view a mercedes, cadillac, and lexus as something that they would not be caught dead driving. But the average person would love to own one of these cars and would consider them as uper class cars. Both of you are the super rich guys of the Atari 2600. What you guys see as nothing special is something that 98 percent of us would love to own.

I agree with them and I have no money I think the rarity does need to be lowered for a few. I only own one rarity 9 and it is Stronghold CIB, a game that probably should be a rarity 8 in all honesty. Doesn't bother me at all.

I am not going to let you get off that easy. I also know one thing about you. You used to have every rarity 9 game except Vulture Attack. I do not think that makes you anything close to an average collector. A formerly rich person is still going to view a lexus as a lower class car even if that person is driving a Geo Metro.

Yeah, thats actually one of the reasons I switched to CIB stuff is that I did own just about every normally released Atari game (excluding label variants, sears, etc.., blah blah blah) The problem is I was able to find them all pretty quickly and at a decent price. If I would have wanted a lot of the 10's I probably could have got them as well since I have seen most of them for sale the problem was the price, I can't justify a 4 digit price tag for an Atari game at this point in my life. Anyways, the rarity should be lowered for some games, sorry but you shouldn't see a rarity 10 game for sale 3 or 4 times in a year, just because it is expensive doesn't mean it's rare in my opinion.

[Wonder007]

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 11:20 AM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:54 PM, said:

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:47 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:41 PM, said:

Marco, on Fri May 18, 2007 5:04 AM, said:

Well, you know my theory, everything else is rarity "not ultra rare"

If I had to make a list, it would look something like:

Atlantis II (Imagic)
BMX Airmaster (Atari)
Color Bar Generator (Videosoft)
Eli's Ladder (Simage)
Lochjaw (Apollo)
Magicard (Commavid)
Mangia (Spectravision)
Pepsi Invaders (Atari)
Sea Monster (Puzzy)
Space Tunnel (Puzzy)
Video Life (Commavid)
Xante cartridge (Xante)


Cheers,
Marco

I take it this is your rarity 9 list.

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:05 PM, said:

Homer,

I don't know any of the other hobbies you quote. I do know this hobby though, been in it for some 20 years. That experience is what I base my rarity system on. It says nothing about baseball cards. comic books or NES carts. This is Atari 2600 collecting, and I don't care much about other hobbies' ratings.

I've always found that wanting to have something is much more exciting than actually having it. That's why I still don't understand why you're so bothered if games would go from an R10 to an R9. They'd still be just as hard to find as they are now (incredibly hard, that is).

Cheers,
Marco

Why am I bothered by this. Maybe because I have 16 carts that are currently rarity 9 or higher. After this little revisionment, I would have only 2 carts rarity 9 or higher. Because with this system even a rarity 9 game becomes unatainable for many people. If you look at what Atariage defines as a rarity 10 cart, it says that this often makes up the showcase of a person's collection. It does not say something like this is often the showcase cart for all collectors in a state or country of 10 million people. Because for some reason now that because a cart has a whopping total of 12 or 18 carts it's no longer a rarity 10 cart is something that is very hard for me to swallow. Also the fact that you and Wonder have such large collections seems to make you both a little more skewed to lower the rarities of most games. You guys are both super hardcore collectors. This is not a rarity guide for the super hardcore collectors. This is a rarity guide for the average joe sixpack. For instance, a super rich person person would view a mercedes, cadillac, and lexus as something that they would not be caught dead driving. But the average person would love to own one of these cars and would consider them as uper class cars. Both of you are the super rich guys of the Atari 2600. What you guys see as nothing special is something that 98 percent of us would love to own.

I agree with them and I have no money I think the rarity does need to be lowered for a few. I only own one rarity 9 and it is Stronghold CIB, a game that probably should be a rarity 8 in all honesty. Doesn't bother me at all.

I am not going to let you get off that easy. I also know one thing about you. You used to have every rarity 9 game except Vulture Attack. I do not think that makes you anything close to an average collector. A formerly rich person is still going to view a lexus as a lower class car even if that person is driving a Geo Metro.

Yeah, thats actually one of the reasons I switched to CIB stuff is that I did own just about every normally released Atari game (excluding label variants, sears, etc.., blah blah blah) The problem is I was able to find them all pretty quickly and at a decent price. If I would have wanted a lot of the 10's I probably could have got them as well since I have seen most of them for sale the problem was the price, I can't justify a 4 digit price tag for an Atari game at this point in my life. Anyways, the rarity should be lowered for some games, sorry but you shouldn't see a rarity 10 game for sale 3 or 4 times in a year, just because it is expensive doesn't mean it's rare in my opinion.

Totally concur with you Crazy Climber.

[homerwannabee]

Wonder007, on Sat May 19, 2007 1:12 PM, said:

So if I am lowering the value of the carts, I'm also lowering the value of my collection as well. It is true that I have a substantial Atari 2600 collection but I wouldn't want to lower the value of my collection....that is dumb. I just commenting on the way I see things and trends in collecting Atari 2600 stuff. I still would value my Mercedes, Cadillac as high as they are because of the fact that I got them and paid the value that they are worth; I wouldn't want to devalue something that is expensive nor construe it that way. All I trying to convey here is that I am a realist, not an idealist.

Yes, you are a realist as far as someone who has almost every cart. But you have a reality that not many people get to see. Maybe I should switch up the analogy for a second. Getting opinions from you guys about what is rare is equivalent of asking a person with a 200 IQ if a certain idea is intelligent or not. You guys are at the upper end of the spectrum on this, and even Crazy Climber was pretty high up there for a time as well. Although I am the only one arguing in favor for not drastically changing the rarity guide. I believe that my viewpoints on this subject are more in line with the average person. Fact is I like being part of the rarity 10 club and do not like the fact that someone is trying to kick me out of this club because my cart is 3 more than some magical number that a supercollector put up. You know Digitalpress has been known to have a stricter guide in regards to rarity 10's and even they have Cubicolor as a rarity 10 game and that game has atleast 70 known to exist. I do agree that certain games like Obelix and Motorodeo definetly should not be rarity 10 games. But you guys are taking this to far to the extreme.

[decypher]

I currently own 6 R10s' and almost all the 9s' and 8s' so i dont think the by dropping the rating on a game lowers there value. Infact if you remove the higher rating from some games it may increase the value of some other games. If you look at the list you see obelix and Pepsi Invaders in the same class. If both games are the same rating why spend 1500 on PI if you can get Obelix for 200??. I guess what I am saying is that if the game demands a higher price then it should have a higher rating. You dont pay 1500 for a game cause it is fun. You pay 1500 cause they are rare. I hope that all made sense.

Jim

[Marco]

At one time, we considered Clay Pigeon as the ultimate rarity for the Odyssey^2 system. Turned out there were plenty more where the first came from (there was just one Brazilian guy active on the internet in those days, and he unearthed the first copy of the game), and this game is no longer a Holy Grail in its part of the classic videogame realm. The first guy, who probably paid a premium for his copy, realized his once-unique item was no longer unique.

Rarity is a dynamic concept. A decade or so ago, the most wanted games were Magicard, Chase the Chuckwagon and Cubicolor. Quadrun also was considered to be ultra rare. We know better now.

The rarity guides in this hobby are still far from definitive. Take the Atarimania database: there are over 6,000 games listed. Lots of them have only been found once or twice. It's going to take ages before the rarity of all these games will be settled.

I worked on the Atari 2600 (PAL) section of the DPG. I've lowered rarities and values of games considerably during those years. I'm not sure, but I think that the DPG hasn't had a major overhaul since edition #7. If they'd do a major update, I'm certain many rarities and values would be altered (mostly lowered).

In my opinion, not a single collection is worth less because of a change in rarity ratings. It's all relative. You're still in the group of collectors who own insanely difficult to find games. The label "R9" doesn't change that.

One cool benefit is that there wouldn't be any more "L@@K RARITY 10 GAME" eBay auctions every week.

Cheers,
Marco

PS: I'm not a rich dude, I got the majority of my collection through trading and "selling to be able to buy"

[homerwannabee]

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 1:59 PM, said:

At one time, we considered Clay Pigeon as the ultimate rarity for the Odyssey^2 system. Turned out there were plenty more where the first came from (there was just one Brazilian guy active on the internet in those days, and he unearthed the first copy of the game), and this game is no longer a Holy Grail in its part of the classic videogame realm. The first guy, who probably paid a premium for his copy, realized his once-unique item was no longer unique.

Rarity is a dynamic concept. A decade or so ago, the most wanted games were Magicard, Chase the Chuckwagon and Cubicolor. Quadrun also was considered to be ultra rare. We know better now.

The rarity guides in this hobby are still far from definitive. Take the Atarimania database: there are over 6,000 games listed. Lots of them have only been found once or twice. It's going to take ages before the rarity of all these games will be settled.

I worked on the Atari 2600 (PAL) section of the DPG. I've lowered rarities and values of games considerably during those years. I'm not sure, but I think that the DPG hasn't had a major overhaul since edition #7. If they'd do a major update, I'm certain many rarities and values would be altered (mostly lowered).

In my opinion, not a single collection is worth less because of a change in rarity ratings. It's all relative. You're still in the group of collectors who own insanely difficult to find games. The label "R9" doesn't change that.

One cool benefit is that there wouldn't be any more "L@@K RARITY 10 GAME" eBay auctions every week.

Cheers,
Marco

PS: I'm not a rich dude, I got the majority of my collection through trading and "selling to be able to buy"

The super rich guy thing is more of an anology. I also used the 200 I.Q. analogy as well. Although you are probably a smart guy, I doubt you are the 1 in a 100 million that has an I.Q. that high. Also you could eliminate this the "L@@K RARITY 10 GAME" phenomena by simply lowering the rarity of Obelix and Motorodeo. Another thing to consider. Lets be conservative and say that only a 1,000 collectors world wide actively collect NTSC Atari 2600 games. And if you look at something like Cubicolor which has atleast 70 games. The fact is that most of these collectors will never have the oportunity to own such a cartridge. You also state how 3 or 4 games a year is too much for a rarity 10 game. Well if you did the math, you would see that it would take the average collector about 250 years just to get the game. But the fact is some of these games like Pepsi Invaders are not going to constantly show up 4 times in a year. I am pretty sure that it has either been never or an extremly long time since Pepsi Invaders has shown up so many times on Ebay in a year. I would really be suprised if the current trend for that game continues. Yes, the rarity assigned does not greatly change the price of a game. A hard to get game is still a hard to get game. But it is kicking so many people's prized carts out of the out of an assigned rarity 10 rating that I have mostly a problem with. This system has been in place for over 6 years now. If there was a huge find for a rarity 10 game like motorodeo then I would agree that this needs a rarity change adjustment. But the fact of the matter is that most of the rarity 10 games you want lowered to a rarity 9 have not had any major finds. There are only more carts now on some of these lists because more people are aware of these games.

[Marco]

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 9:30 PM, said:

But it is kicking so many people's prized carts out of the out of an assigned rarity 10 rating that I have mostly a problem with.

It's clear that this has little to do with facts, it's about emotions. I'm kicking my own carts out of the R10 category also, but I don't feel the pain.

Why is it that you are bothered so much that an R10 would become an R9? Relatively speaking, you're still in the same league as your peers. We ALL go down a notch, not just you. So with the same collections as we had yesterday, we're still in the same positions compared to one another.



Cheers,
Marco

[homerwannabee]

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 2:46 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 9:30 PM, said:

But it is kicking so many people's prized carts out of the out of an assigned rarity 10 rating that I have mostly a problem with.

It's clear that this has little to do with facts, it's about emotions. I'm kicking my own carts out of the R10 category also, but I don't feel the pain.

Why is it that you are bothered so much that an R10 would become an R9? Relatively speaking, you're still in the same league as your peers. We ALL go down a notch, not just you. So with the same collections as we had yesterday, we're still in the same positions compared to one another.



Cheers,
Marco

If you look at my posts carefully you will see that most of the arguments I have made have been very factual. You take one line out of the 100 lines I have made and then labeled my argument an emotional one. Trust me, if my argument was emotionally based, I would not be able to argue angainst 3 different people at the same time. People who have emotionally based arguments seem to esculate into name calling and mud slinging in very short order. Also obviously you are going to be cool with the idea since this was your idea to begin with. One other thing you may not have considered. When you lower that many rarity 10 games and rarity 9 games it has a major effect on the lower rarities as well. Now you are going to have to make major adjustments to most of the rarity 8 games because the are now grouped with the rarity 9 games. You are also going to have to do this with the rarity 7 games and the rarity 6 games. The whole system will be hugely effected by what is being proposed here. If the rarity 10's are going to be changed, don't you think it would be much easier to assign 1 higher rarity of say 11

[Marco]

So you would be fine if your R10 games wouldn't be the highest thing on the scale? Then you might as well make them an R9...

Cheers,
Marco

[homerwannabee]

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

So you would be fine if your R10 games wouldn't be the highest thing on the scale? Then you might as well make them an R9...

Cheers,
Marco

I did not say I would be fine with it. I just said that if there ever was a decision to make a huge change like you are suggesting it would be wiser to go a 1 higher approach than the approach that you are suggesting. I just don't know why you are so bent on lowering the rarity of almost all the current carts put up by Atariage. Why didn't you make this suggestion years ago instead of now.

[PressureCooker2600]

that Birthday Mania cart needs to be an R10, thats for sure

[Wonder007]

Going up one or one down, it does not matter. At the end of the day, the true rarity 10's will be the true rarity 10's. For example, Birthday Mania is NOT at the same level as a semi-complete Atlantis II, that's for sure. There is only one (or two perhaps) Birthday Mania, and there are several semi-complete Atlantis II's.........now, if somebody had a COMPLETE Atlantis (docs, prizes, box, shirt, etc....), that would be a true 11, I mean 10 excuse me. If we are comparing single carts, Birthday Mania is a step above from an Atlantis II.

Edited by Wonder007, Sat May 19, 2007 2:36 PM.

[Marco]

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 10:21 PM, said:

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

So you would be fine if your R10 games wouldn't be the highest thing on the scale? Then you might as well make them an R9...

Cheers,
Marco

I did not say I would be fine with it. I just said that if there ever was a decision to make a huge change like you are suggesting it would be wiser to go a 1 higher approach than the approach that you are suggesting. I just don't know why you are so bent on lowering the rarity of almost all the current carts put up by Atariage. Why didn't you make this suggestion years ago instead of now.

That must be pretty obvious when you read the previous posts. The rarity rating for Atari 2600 is very dynamic, it changes (a lot!) over time. Examples from the past, which nobody contests, prove it.

I'm just as bent over changing the rating as you are on keeping it. I think it's a good thing to discuss rarity ratings from time to time, their dynamic requires it, so to speak. You took the effort to come up with a lot of arguments to keep the current ratings, I'd like to go over them one by one.

1. 10 may be too high for many games when years pass by
Indeed, in the past we rated many games R10 (Quadrun, Music Machine, Motorodeo, Obelix) which clearly aren't any more. When time passes we adjust rarities as we gather more information on the 'true' rarity of a game.

2. there are many more collectors now
That's true, but that only changes the relative availability of a game, not the (more or less) absolute rarity.

3. it's an insult to collectors
The system is based upon relativity, so everyone will relatively still be in the same league as they were. Nobody's collection will loose value over a change in the rarity system.

4. other hobbies use other rarity scales
True, but I don't think that has any relevance for our hobby. We as a specific community decide upon the system we use to grade our games.

5. money can buy you anything you like
True, but this too doesn't affect the rarity system, as the ratings are all relative to each other.

6. what is a Holy Grail is subjective
True again, we're having this discussion to intersubjectively determine what's a Holy Grail. My proposal is to stay close to the real (Christian) Holy Grail.

7. I don't like being kicked out of the club
Nobody's kicking anyone out of any club, we all move in the same directions, so the club stays the same.

8. DPG has less strict rarity ratings
I am convinced their system too would change substantially if they were to do a major update.

9. the system has been in place for 6 years
Yep, time for an update, I say!

0. it would take a lot to change the whole system
That may be so (or not, we could just keep everything in place in the R1-R8 range), but I don't think that it's strong argument to not change the top of the pyramid.


Cheers,
Marco

Edited by Marco, Sat May 19, 2007 2:41 PM.

[CPUWIZ]

You guys need help. LOL

[Marco]

CPUWIZ, on Sat May 19, 2007 10:43 PM, said:

You guys need help. LOL

Tsk tsk, I'm just one step away from introducing my all-or-nothing rarity guide

Cheers,
Marco

[homerwannabee]

Wonder007, on Sat May 19, 2007 3:35 PM, said:

Going up one or one down, it does not matter. At the end of the day, the true rarity 10's will be the true rarity 10's. For example, Birthday Mania is NOT at the same level as a semi-complete Atlantis II, that's for sure. There is only one (or two perhaps) Birthday Mania, and there are several semi-complete Atlantis II's.........now, if somebody had a COMPLETE Atlantis (docs, prizes, box, shirt, etc....), that would be a true 11, I mean 10 excuse me. If we are comparing single carts, Birthday Mania is a step above from an Atlantis II.

Good something we can agree on. I also think that birthday mania is rarer than Atlantis II.

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 3:41 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 10:21 PM, said:

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

So you would be fine if your R10 games wouldn't be the highest thing on the scale? Then you might as well make them an R9...

Cheers,
Marco

I did not say I would be fine with it. I just said that if there ever was a decision to make a huge change like you are suggesting it would be wiser to go a 1 higher approach than the approach that you are suggesting. I just don't know why you are so bent on lowering the rarity of almost all the current carts put up by Atariage. Why didn't you make this suggestion years ago instead of now.

That must be pretty obvious when you read the previous posts. The rarity rating for Atari 2600 is very dynamic, it changes (a lot!) over time. Examples from the past, which nobody contests, prove it.

I'm just as bent over changing the rating as you are on keeping it. I think it's a good thing to discuss rarity ratings from time to time, their dynamic requires it, so to speak. You took the effort to come up with a lot of arguments to keep the current ratings, I'd like to go over them one by one.

1. 10 may be too high for many games when years pass by
Indeed, in the past we rated many games R10 (Quadrun, Music Machine, Motorodeo, Obelix) which clearly aren't any more. When time passes we adjust rarities as we gather more information on the 'true' rarity of a game.

2. there are many more collectors now
That's true, but that only changes the relative availability of a game, not the (more or less) absolute rarity.

3. it's an insult to collectors
The system is based upon relativity, so everyone will relatively still be in the same league as they were. Nobody's collection will loose value over a change in the rarity system.

4. other hobbies use other rarity scales
True, but I don't think that has any relevance for our hobby. We as a specific community decide upon the system we use to grade our games.

5. money can buy you anything you like
True, but this too doesn't affect the rarity system, as the ratings are all relative to each other.

6. what is a Holy Grail is subjective
True again, we're having this discussion to intersubjectively determine what's a Holy Grail. My proposal is to stay close to the real (Christian) Holy Grail.

7. I don't like being kicked out of the club
Nobody's kicking anyone out of any club, we all move in the same directions, so the club stays the same.

8. DPG has less strict rarity ratings
I am convinced their system too would change substantially if they were to do a major update.

9. the system has been in place for 6 years
Yep, time for an update, I say!

0. it would take a lot to change the whole system
That may be so (or not, we could just keep everything in place in the R1-R8 range), but I don't think that it's strong argument to not change the top of the pyramid.


Cheers,
Marco

Good you read my argument points. Cool stuff I feel that I have made every point I could make. I still believe that the rarity 10 list is mostly fine and does not need a major overhaul. This is the last post I will make on the subject. I feel that I have made enough information on the subject for people to have enough information on the other side of argument that you are presenting. It was definetly a good argument.
BTW CPUWIZ, I think your right on us needing help .

[Wonder007]

I don't need help........


















or maybe.......

[Crazy Climber]

Wonder007, on Sat May 19, 2007 1:26 PM, said:

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 11:20 AM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:54 PM, said:

Crazy Climber, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:47 PM, said:

homerwannabee, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:41 PM, said:

Marco, on Fri May 18, 2007 5:04 AM, said:

Well, you know my theory, everything else is rarity "not ultra rare"

If I had to make a list, it would look something like:

Atlantis II (Imagic)
BMX Airmaster (Atari)
Color Bar Generator (Videosoft)
Eli's Ladder (Simage)
Lochjaw (Apollo)
Magicard (Commavid)
Mangia (Spectravision)
Pepsi Invaders (Atari)
Sea Monster (Puzzy)
Space Tunnel (Puzzy)
Video Life (Commavid)
Xante cartridge (Xante)


Cheers,
Marco

I take it this is your rarity 9 list.

Marco, on Sat May 19, 2007 12:05 PM, said:

Homer,

I don't know any of the other hobbies you quote. I do know this hobby though, been in it for some 20 years. That experience is what I base my rarity system on. It says nothing about baseball cards. comic books or NES carts. This is Atari 2600 collecting, and I don't care much about other hobbies' ratings.

I've always found that wanting to have something is much more exciting than actually having it. That's why I still don't understand why you're so bothered if games would go from an R10 to an R9. They'd still be just as hard to find as they are now (incredibly hard, that is).

Cheers,
Marco

Why am I bothered by this. Maybe because I have 16 carts that are currently rarity 9 or higher. After this little revisionment, I would have only 2 carts rarity 9 or higher. Because with this system even a rarity 9 game becomes unatainable for many people. If you look at what Atariage defines as a rarity 10 cart, it says that this often makes up the showcase of a person's collection. It does not say something like this is often the showcase cart for all collectors in a state or country of 10 million people. Because for some reason now that because a cart has a whopping total of 12 or 18 carts it's no longer a rarity 10 cart is something that is very hard for me to swallow. Also the fact that you and Wonder have such large collections seems to make you both a little more skewed to lower the rarities of most games. You guys are both super hardcore collectors. This is not a rarity guide for the super hardcore collectors. This is a rarity guide for the average joe sixpack. For instance, a super rich person person would view a mercedes, cadillac, and lexus as something that they would not be caught dead driving. But the average person would love to own one of these cars and would consider them as uper class cars. Both of you are the super rich guys of the Atari 2600. What you guys see as nothing special is something that 98 percent of us would love to own.

I agree with them and I have no money I think the rarity does need to be lowered for a few. I only own one rarity 9 and it is Stronghold CIB, a game that probably should be a rarity 8 in all honesty. Doesn't bother me at all.

I am not going to let you get off that easy. I also know one thing about you. You used to have every rarity 9 game except Vulture Attack. I do not think that makes you anything close to an average collector. A formerly rich person is still going to view a lexus as a lower class car even if that person is driving a Geo Metro.

Yeah, thats actually one of the reasons I switched to CIB stuff is that I did own just about every normally released Atari game (excluding label variants, sears, etc.., blah blah blah) The problem is I was able to find them all pretty quickly and at a decent price. If I would have wanted a lot of the 10's I probably could have got them as well since I have seen most of them for sale the problem was the price, I can't justify a 4 digit price tag for an Atari game at this point in my life. Anyways, the rarity should be lowered for some games, sorry but you shouldn't see a rarity 10 game for sale 3 or 4 times in a year, just because it is expensive doesn't mean it's rare in my opinion.

Totally concur with you Crazy Climber.

Yeah, once you get everything R9 and below you are looking at a lot of 4 digit price tags, not something I really want to rush in to. Starting all over with CIB stuff is really a blast man. I have also taken it one step further and have decided to try for 8/10 condition or higher for everything. I let my guard down on the rare stuff (My Stronghold CIB is lower than 8/10 condition) just to get a few hard to find items in my collection but I like the fact that it will probably take me a decade or so to find everything I need to consider my collection complete. I also collect PAL and Homebrews, just as long as it is unique stuff, don't really care for clones and variants. I'm probably sitting on 200 or so different games which is a good base for my collection. I'm getting off topic here but back to the point. I will never have a complete collection, I know this, I think rarity 10's are the kind of item you have basicly accepted you can never have but if you do happen to be the owner of one you will have something truely special that very few other people if any other people own. Rarity 10's should not be something seen for sale on a semi regular basis, they should be un heard of freaky rare carts that collectors day dream about, not carts that anyone with a few grand can purchase

[Buyatari]

There is really not that much to debate. The list should as accurate as possible. If you have to drop ratings on games we all have, well thems the breaks. The only good ratity system is one thats accurate and consistant.

[Dino]

Allocating a rarity number to a game does not affect its value. Its how often it comes up for sale and the number of people who want it that affects its rarity. People need to understand the difference between value and rarity - it explains why a game for which only 5 are known to exist may sell for $50, but one for which hundreds are known to exist sells for $250.

If all of a sudden Combat carts started to die and there were only 10 working copies left, the game would be worth hundreds of dollars all of a sudden even if the rarity guide still showed it as an R1. Its why an Obelix CIB fetches $100 but a CIB Video Life gets $5k, even though they are both listed as R10s.

The rarity guide needs to be updated to reflect reality. We should all leave out our feelings. I personally have quite a few R10s in my collection at the moment which would become R9s. Does it bother me to change the rarity guide? Definately not. The games I don't have I probably will never get now, but changing their rarity from R10 to R9 does not affect their desirability in my eyes and I personally don't care what other peole think of my collection.

[CPUWIZ]

Dino, on Sun May 20, 2007 5:52 PM, said:

I personally don't care what other peole think of my collection.

Your collection sucks.

[Dino]

CPUWIZ, on Mon May 21, 2007 10:31 AM, said:

Dino, on Sun May 20, 2007 5:52 PM, said:

I personally don't care what other peole think of my collection.

Your collection sucks.

Sticks and stones, CPUWIZ

[Dino]

homerwannabee, on Sun May 20, 2007 6:21 AM, said:

Why didn't you make this suggestion years ago instead of now.

He did!