Curt Vendel Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) This should be pinned not to just the Main Marketplace Forum, but to its subforums as well. Well, the time had to eventually come, it seems to happen to all eventually and now its happened to me. I too have become a victim of Paypals devious and shady Terms of Service and User Agreement and their bogus and non-existent Seller Protection. If you care to spend a month reading through their 25 page User Agreement and 37 Pages of ToS, you'll come to find out that in simple layman's terms - you waive all rights to any kind of monetary protections you would normally have through a Banking Institution. But wait you say... Paypal is a Bank, you know, FDIC covered and all that nifty neat stuff right? No, Paypal is NOT, they are a corporation who transfers money to/from parties, but has buried draconian safeguards in place that only safeguard themselves and no one else. Bottom line is I am no longer going to be ripped off by those cut-throats any further and I will look at places like bidpay and securealert and a few others to see if there is a company that will offer the same features as Paypal, but without the holds and waits and hidden "bend you overs" that Paypal forces upon all who use it. Some advice I would ask ALL to take if you continue to use Paypal - 1. Do NOT leave funds in your paypal account, once they are clear, withdraw them IMMEDIATELY. 2. Open a separate banking account with ATM/Debit credit card with no minimum or something low like $10, do NOT EVER use your personal checking account, otherwise it is paypal's private playground to suck funds out of your account mysteriously whenever they feel like it. Then have you go through rings trying to find the customer service number which will be answered by someone to only end up pointing to you to send a webform. Your webform will be answered sooner or later with a canned response. If you're lucky they'll put back the funds, after a 45 day investigation. 3. Only put money into a paypal-linked separate checking account when needed, remove funds when they arrive. Don't leave anything in the account except the bare minimum. 4. Make your password for paypal a password ONLY for use on paypal, don't use repeated passwords. I know its annoying, but put into your Outlook or other calendar on your computer a reminder to change your password once a month, we're talking about an online account tied directly into your bank account here, don't take it lightly or you'll pay the price on multiple levels. 5. Don't use paypal to make your on-line payments (for utilities, car payments, etc...) use sites directly provided by your lenders, banks and utilities, do NOT use paypal - because when something goes wrong with your paypal account, everything will suffer, do NOT rely on them. 6. Last but not least, go grab a coffee, can a soda, or your favorite liquor (you may need it) and spend some time here: http://www.paypalsucks.com/ Read the on-going horror that is Paypal. Then come back and consider closing your paypal account, or if you are brave (or foolhardy) and want to continue using paypal, take my advice and follow the above steps and add at least a small level of protection for yourselves, because sooner or later, like me, you will find yourself on the receiving end of Paypal's wraith. Curt Edited April 29, 2007 by Curt Vendel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangasinan Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Ive never had a problem with them in over 2 years dealing with them,in fact they once stopped a hacker from ripping me off . I will still do business with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted April 29, 2007 Author Share Posted April 29, 2007 I was a member with them for 7 years, 21 days... As a said, sooner or later.... Curt Ive never had a problem with them in over 2 years dealing with them,in fact they once stopped a hacker from ripping me off . I will still do business with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accousticguitar Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) I haven't used them for years, and have no reason to think I ever will. BTW, thanks for the info. It's good to know. Edited April 29, 2007 by accousticguitar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwackery Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Without going into too many details (unless you feel like it, but I respect your privacy), what happened to you that caused you to stop using PayPal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangasinan Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) I was a member with them for 7 years, 21 days... As a said, sooner or later.... So what are implying you were with them for seven years and 21 days without a problem...wish i had that record with my bank. The simple fact is that 99% of sellers on Ebay use Paypal as their 1st choice (and only choice if you are OS)to pay for items purchased from them,so no Paypal no buying. Edited April 30, 2007 by pangasinan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGQuarterly Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 What should I use then? I mostly sell stuff on forums. Is there a better way for people to pay me without having to send it in the mail? I am all about selling my stuff quickly, and most people are going to balk at sending a money order unless they REALLY want what I am selling. Is there some other way for people to pay me electronically? I agree that PayPal sucks, but what else is there? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Google is now setting up a payment service, that could very well be a new alternative. More importantly -- if Paypal feels heavy pressure against them from such a big-wig as Google, that could end up having them turn around and start playing more fairly with buyers/sellers in the future. I would suggest we all look around, there is bidpay which seems okay, but I think looking into Google's new service may be a good route to investigate. As for what happened to me - Paypal "Seller Protection" eligibility and their stipulations are a total facade. I qualified, showed all the proof of delivery, signed receipts from the freight service, etc. Yet paypal still gave the buyers credit card company the chargeback money back and sided with them, yet I had sellers protection which no matter what, I am supposed to be covered. All I get are canned responsed and after digging for nearly 10 minutes, finally finding a customer service # to call, I waited over 40 mins to speak to someone who would only direct me to a webform to submit documents and there was nothing more they could do on the phone as they have "limited resources to support such requests and opening a case through their webform is the most effective means" Yeah, most effective means for them to bot-response you and ignore you. So I sell and ship a $1900 item, buyer receives, I have proof of receipt and he keeps it, 3 months later he does a chargeback with his credit card company, never returns what he bought and now I'm stuck with the bill and he's got the merchandise AND his money back, nice, real nice. Now I've gotta contact the local Arizona police to see if I can open a fraud/theft case as I obviously have no further assistance from Paypal. Curt What should I use then? I mostly sell stuff on forums. Is there a better way for people to pay me without having to send it in the mail? I am all about selling my stuff quickly, and most people are going to balk at sending a money order unless they REALLY want what I am selling. Is there some other way for people to pay me electronically? I agree that PayPal sucks, but what else is there? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Sorry to hear that you have had one or more issues with them that you've now had to swear them off. I've been using them for years as well and know that eventually I'll probably get screwed in one fashion or another. In a sense I already have been twice where international buyers claimed they never received merchandise and pretty much PayPal always sides with the buyer. Without an inexpensive tracking method for international packages, it's always a risk. Pretty much all the advice you give I've been following. Such as using a dedicated bank account for PayPal and keeping that account nearly devoid of funds. Or having a strong and unique password for your PayPal account (they also now have an RSA-style device to make login authentication even stronger). I also agree about not leaving large amounts of cash sitting in your PayPal account. While I find PayPal quite convenient, I certainly do not trust them one iota as it's obvious they only have their best interests at heart. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bretthorror Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Sorry to hear that you have had one or more issues with them that you've now had to swear them off. I've been using them for years as well and know that eventually I'll probably get screwed in one fashion or another. In a sense I already have been twice where international buyers claimed they never received merchandise and pretty much PayPal always sides with the buyer. Without an inexpensive tracking method for international packages, it's always a risk. Pretty much all the advice you give I've been following. Such as using a dedicated bank account for PayPal and keeping that account nearly devoid of funds. Or having a strong and unique password for your PayPal account (they also now have an RSA-style device to make login authentication even stronger). I also agree about not leaving large amounts of cash sitting in your PayPal account. While I find PayPal quite convenient, I certainly do not trust them one iota as it's obvious they only have their best interests at heart. ..Al Have you looked into third party insurance options? I've read some Ebay listings recently that offered that. Of course, you must ship many, many items internationally and if only two people have had their packages lost, it'd probably cost more for the third party insurance. There's some changes being made May 14 to international shipping. From all I can gather, it may as well not have changed, but I've not looked into it much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Have you looked into third party insurance options? I've read some Ebay listings recently that offered that. Of course, you must ship many, many items internationally and if only two people have had their packages lost, it'd probably cost more for the third party insurance. Yes, I use Endicia to print my postage and I can use their insurance for any packages I ship via USPS. It's less expensive than the USPS insurance, you don't have to fill out a form and affix it to the package, and it's supposedly easier to file and receive a claim (which I haven't had to do yet). There's some changes being made May 14 to international shipping. From all I can gather, it may as well not have changed, but I've not looked into it much. I'm sure it's going up like all the other rates. I can't wait to witness the fun that is Dimensional Weight shipping when I drop packages off at the post office. I feel sorry for the poor postal clerks that will have to try and explain these new rules to people. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 PayPal warning to all, and to all a good night. Are there any really good alternatives for donations that are easy to use? I'd hate to take down my donation page since I get a donation once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwackery Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 So I sell and ship a $1900 item, buyer receives, I have proof of receipt and he keeps it, 3 months later he does a chargeback with his credit card company, never returns what he bought and now I'm stuck with the bill and he's got the merchandise AND his money back, nice, real nice. Now I've gotta contact the local Arizona police to see if I can open a fraud/theft case as I obviously have no further assistance from Paypal. Curt Damnation. According to NY laws, anything over $1000 is grand larceny, which is a felony. I'm not sure about Arizona's laws or which state's laws would take precedence here, but I would definitely vigorously pursue some sort of legal action against this jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 So I sell and ship a $1900 item, buyer receives, I have proof of receipt and he keeps it, 3 months later he does a chargeback with his credit card company, never returns what he bought and now I'm stuck with the bill and he's got the merchandise AND his money back, nice, real nice. Now I've gotta contact the local Arizona police to see if I can open a fraud/theft case as I obviously have no further assistance from Paypal. Curt Damnation. According to NY laws, anything over $1000 is grand larceny, which is a felony. I'm not sure about Arizona's laws or which state's laws would take precedence here, but I would definitely vigorously pursue some sort of legal action against this jerk. Falls under NY law. Curt goes to his local police, files a claim, police fax down the charges to buyers local police department, buyers local police go to his house, he gets charged with possesion of stolen goods, mail fraud, grand theft, credit card fraud and or a few other nice lovely things the law has in store for scum like this buyer. Go to the cops Curt you will get your money or your item back I'm sure of it. The headache will be worth it in the end and with any luck that bastard might get some jail time to think over his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricDeLee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Damn... it sounds like the crap SS4U has been doing to people. Get the items... and then file a chargeback. Total BS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 I've heard similar horror stories, and won't keep more than ~$100 in my account at any time. Unfortunately, PayPal is clearly the #1 site for this as the others have a long way to go to catch up. (I think it helps that PayPal is owned by Ebay.) Anyway, good advice from Curt. I'd add my little snippet (keep you acct under $100) to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigO Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) So I sell and ship a $1900 item, buyer receives, I have proof of receipt and he keeps it, 3 months later he does a chargeback with his credit card company, never returns what he bought and now I'm stuck with the bill and he's got the merchandise AND his money back, nice, real nice. Now I've gotta contact the local Arizona police to see if I can open a fraud/theft case as I obviously have no further assistance from Paypal. Curt Damnation. According to NY laws, anything over $1000 is grand larceny, which is a felony. I'm not sure about Arizona's laws or which state's laws would take precedence here, but I would definitely vigorously pursue some sort of legal action against this jerk. Falls under NY law. Curt goes to his local police, files a claim, police fax down the charges to buyers local police department, buyers local police go to his house, he gets charged with possesion of stolen goods, mail fraud, grand theft, credit card fraud and or a few other nice lovely things the law has in store for scum like this buyer. Go to the cops Curt you will get your money or your item back I'm sure of it. The headache will be worth it in the end and with any luck that bastard might get some jail time to think over his actions. If I were that guy, I'd have gotten rid of it already. Note: I am in Arizona (Phoenix) but am definitely not that guy. I don't know much about legal issues so if I were in this situation, I might start with a shot in the dark and contact the AZ Attorney General's (Terry Goddard) office just to see if they point me to any particularly relevant information. http://www.azag.gov/contact.html The Office of Victim's Services might be a reasonable contact to begin with. Edited April 30, 2007 by BigO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 I guess I'm wary, but also wondering how much I should worry since I still only have the free Paypal account and it's primarily used for buying or paying stuff (I never sold a thing in my life really) So I've never given Paypal a single penny for anything over the past 6 years. I do like the idea of pointing it to a new non-main checking account, and I think that's what I'll do eventually here once I open up a local checking account here in NC. My bank account still exists in Seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayhem Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Now a question for those who might actually have a bank account attached to their Paypal account... I've been flagged up recently for receiving more than £4,500 into my account and to "comply" with European anti-money laundering laws (which only actually apply to Governments not private businesses so legally Paypal have no rights to force me to do this, but I have to go through with it otherwise my account and any cards/emails addresses attached to it will be banned eventually, according to a friend of mine who has already been through that with them), Paypal want me to register a bank account with them and I don't really want to do that. So I have two options: 1) Do as mentioned by Curt and set up a temporary bank account with bugger all money and use that. 2) Actually put a genuine account in there and then remove the details from Paypal immediately. Given option #2, how easy is it to remove a bank account from Paypal, especially if it's the only one listed. Is it possible? Looking at their help it suggests you can do that, but I thought I'd throw it out to anyone here first. Oh and they want to check my phone number is confirmed and that part doesn't even work properly when their database has conflicting information One part says my phone number is unconfirmed and to confirm it, they ask me to authorise them to ring me at that number. Except when I attempt that part, an error message comes up saying I can't do it because the phone is already confirmed. Way to go guys! Guess I'll be on the sodding phone to them at some point to resolve the phone number thing doh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 I have my checking account connected to my Paypal account because I never keep money in Paypal and have them just pull money out of my checking account as needed (I think it's labeled as a backup funding source). I only buy stuff on ebay, never sell, so I'm not sure things like chargebacks can really hurt me. Am I in any danger other than from the normal "someone finding out my password" type stuff? Is there a way a seller could somehow get money out of my account that I haven't authorized? I'd rather not have to go through the hassel of opening up another account with my bank just for paypal. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almost Rice Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Is there a way a seller could somehow get money out of my account that I haven't authorized? I'd rather not have to go through the hassel of opening up another account with my bank just for paypal. The seller can't. but ebay/paypal can. Its a pain when you have a payment due them. I had $10 due to paypal and they took it from my bank account automatically without my permission. They do this to avoid me paying by credit card which costs them money. The bank account also becomes the default payment method. So every for purchase I have to select my payment method. since you buy and sell, I would have 2 paypal accounts. Keep the purchases separate from the sales. Like Curt says, its only a matter of time until they screw you. I had a $25 charge when paypal overdrafted my account to pay their fees(I had paid them already at the beginning of the month). In business we ran selling braballs, we stopped selling on ebay because we made only $100 after 1 year. With all the fees and bank overdrafts, it was not worth it for me. I had a separate checking account but I wish my bank would not have overdraft protection turned on for electronic transactions. If you have it connected to your regular account, what would happen if paypal takes back $1000 for a chargeback out of your checking account? I have found Amazon to be a better venue for selling a few things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 The seller can't. but ebay/paypal can. Its a pain when you have a payment due them. I had $10 due to paypal and they took it from my bank account automatically without my permission. They do this to avoid me paying by credit card which costs them money. See.. but he's saying he doesn't have that "upgraded" account where you have to pay Paypal anything. Like me he probably has the free account used for buying stuff, and has never payed Paypal a cent. I know I never have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalemFrost7800 Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) Is there a way a seller could somehow get money out of my account that I haven't authorized? I'd rather not have to go through the hassel of opening up another account with my bank just for paypal. In business we ran selling braballs, we stopped selling on ebay because we made only $100 after 1 year. Ok Slightly off topic but I have to know what a braball is? Back on topic I bought an atari item off a website (not ebay or atariage) and not everything was included as described in the listing, the seller did not reply to emails so I opened a case with paypal, after what felt like forever I was denied any money back because the seller told them he did send me a package. I wrote paypal back and said yes he did but it wasn't as described and their reply was "this case is closed" so I replied back with "So of I ordered a $2000.00 computer and received a pencil as long as SOMETHING was shipped thats all you care about" and the email I got back was "this case is closed". I was finally able to reach the seller, he replied within 5 minutes of me emailing him using a different email address and asking a question like I was interested in buying something, and he did send the rest of the items as described no thanks to paypal. Edited April 30, 2007 by usinoh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math You Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) *deleted* Edited May 25, 2007 by MRB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangasinan Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 I was finally able to reach the seller, he replied within 5 minutes of me emailing him using a different email address and asking a question like I was interested in buying something, Hehehe now thats sneaky,BUT CLEVER..lol.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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