296 replies to this topic

[fishsandwich]

I've always considered the Jaguar, 3DO, and Sega 32x to be the "first wave" of 32-bit consoles and that the PSone, Saturn, and N64 were the "second wave" (let's not argue about "bits", shall we? I'm just going with 32 for identification purposes.)

Gorf has convinced me that the Jaguar has more horsepower than the 32x... but how does it compare to the 3DO? Is the Jag on top of the list in terms of POWER and POTENTIAL or is it the 3DO?

[Tempest]

I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but I think they're quite equal. From the available evidence I've seen I'd say that the Jag could do anything the 3DO could and the 3DO could *probably* do anything the Jag could (maybe not AvP or Skyhammer, but most other things).

Tempest

[Gunstar]

Tempest, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:11 PM, said:

I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but I think they're quite equal. From the available evidence I've seen I'd say that the Jag could do anything the 3DO could and the 3DO could *probably* do anything the Jag could (maybe not AvP or Skyhammer, but most other things).

Tempest

I agree that they are pretty close in power, but I reserve final judgement since most Jag games are bottlenecked by the 68K chip, if programmed properly leaving the 68K out and using just the RISC chips, who knows, I might change my mind more strongly in favor of the Jaguar, but I may never know, as it stands NOW, I say they are pretty equal, with both haveing some hardware advantages over the other in different areas. Both are great systems IMHO.

[Willard]

Quote

I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but I think they're quite equal. From the available evidence I've seen I'd say that the Jag could do anything the 3DO could and the 3DO could *probably* do anything the Jag could (maybe not AvP or Skyhammer, but most other things).

Tempest

Why not AVP or Skyhammer? The 3DO has Killing Time (among many other nice looking FPS's) and Starfighter? The draw-distance and framerate in Skyhammer are absolutely horrible.

Edited by Willard, Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:27 PM.

[Tempest]

Willard, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:23 PM, said:

Quote

I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but I think they're quite equal. From the available evidence I've seen I'd say that the Jag could do anything the 3DO could and the 3DO could *probably* do anything the Jag could (maybe not AvP or Skyhammer, but most other things).

Tempest

Why not AVP or Skyhammer? The 3DO has Killing Time (among many other nice looking FPS's) and Starfighter? The draw-distance and framerate in Skyhammer are absolutely horrible.

You're right. I was thinking of the CDi for some reason which could *bearly* do a FPS (Operation Atlantis or whatever it was called).

Tempest

[Gregory DG]

One of the first games I ever saw played for the 3DO was Crash N' Burn. I don't think I've ever seen a game that looked that good on the Jaguar. Since then, my opinion of the 3DO vs. Jaguar has leaned a bit towards 3DO in the power category. Of course, it's not fair to compare the 3DO to a Jag without a CD player, IMO.

[spiffyone]

32x isn't a console. It's an add-on. So it wasn't really part of that "1st wave" per se. That's why it isn't listed in any of the lists for the "32/64-bit" gen I've seen.

[spiffyone]

Gregory DG, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:47 PM, said:

One of the first games I ever saw played for the 3DO was Crash N' Burn. I don't think I've ever seen a game that looked that good on the Jaguar. Since then, my opinion of the 3DO vs. Jaguar has leaned a bit towards 3DO in the power category. Of course, it's not fair to compare the 3DO to a Jag without a CD player, IMO.

Not really a good game to pull out in this comparison.

The track for Crash 'N Burn is actually FMV. It's kinda like Silpheed on the Sega CD in that manner. Silpheed looks like it's a polygon filled game, but all those big ass ships that are filled with polys are just FMV playing in the background under the game sprites. Same deal with Crash 'N Burn.

So, as far as graphical prowess goes, it's not a good game to use in comparing 3DO to Jag.

It is, however, a good game to use when comparing them in terms of overall tech. Because it uses CD-ROM standard rather than cartridges, 3DO is able to store big FMV files that wouldn't be able to fit on a cart. Jag CD would be able to pull it off, but, like I said about 32X, that's an add-on. A very low production run add on at that (only about 10,000 Jag CD units were made, according to what I've read).

Anyway, overall tech-wise, CD has an advantage over cartridges due to storage space. That's one of the advantages Saturn and PSone had over N64 as well.

[Gorf]

Tempest, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:11 PM, said:

I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but I think they're quite equal. From the available evidence I've seen I'd say that the Jag could do anything the 3DO could and the 3DO could *probably* do anything the Jag could (maybe not AvP or Skyhammer, but most other things).

Tempest

Crucified? Come now! No the 3DO is not a horrible machine, but for $700?!? DOH! The Jag
does have more horse power but it also has a 68k which when used tends to overburden
the horse so to speak. The Jaguar bus is rated at 106 ges a sec.

I cant see the 3DO being that able with only ONE ARM processor at 12 MHZ. The 3DO internally
uses a 320x240 screen like most Jaguar games do but the 3DO video hardware interpolates
it to 640x480 so they make there claims doubling the true count. I suppose it's valid to say
that however because if the vid is being interpolated in hardware it is being processed. Have
to remain consistent. Well even with that they claim their bus is rated at 50 megs a sec
which when you do the math adds up.

32 bit gives you 4 bytes per transfer

4 X 12hmz = 48hmz so yeah, 50 megs a sec give or take. Then the interpolation doubles the pixels to
smooth the jaggies.

Keep in mind these are MAXIMUM THROUGPUT which NEVER happens. Expect 75%
of that for each console. Jag gets exponetially worse the more 68k code you use
and the more GPU/DSP modules you blit in and out of the locals.

The 3DO had better software because it had better tools and a much wider array of support
that was actually busy at work on games for 3DO and actually releasing them, unlike the
many developers who said yes but did nothing. Developers were able to use tools well tested
before 3DO was probably even conceived as the ARM has been around , already establish
with plenty of tools. C tools highly optimized by that time the ARM 12(was it?) came around
and many utilities to develope other compilers and tools.

The Jaguar no doubt has more horsepower but it was design with two chips completeley
unknown to anyone but Atari and FlareII , their designers. Brainstorm is one company
making tools, 3DO no doubt had many more. Hate to say it but trying to adapt MADMAC
and ALN to fit the Jaguar was not only ass-o-nine but also proved lethal. The system
cannot be coded with the tools made for the Atari 800 and ST! Because of this, any real
power needs to be done by hand assembly, which takes forever, hence a game like
Battle Sphere. Getting performance like that in no 6 month coding job. Especially for
two guys.

[A Sprite]

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

Edited by A Sprite, Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:20 PM.

[Gorf]

Gregory DG, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:47 PM, said:

One of the first games I ever saw played for the 3DO was Crash N' Burn. I don't think I've ever seen a game that looked that good on the Jaguar. Since then, my opinion of the 3DO vs. Jaguar has leaned a bit towards 3DO in the power category. Of course, it's not fair to compare the 3DO to a Jag without a CD player, IMO.

Dont confuse good development tools with power. That is the 3d0's clear advantage.
They may have screwed up once they got to market, but they were quite ready for the market.

The jag has twice the bus width and bandwidth. It's definitely more powerful but you have to code
it for the most part in assembler becasue of the lack of RISC specific tools. An assembler is never
enough to get fast performance form any system.

Yeah the games look more polished on 3DO because they are. The ARm processor has been around
long before the 3DO even and rght there is a great developing advantage.

[SINGLE TOOTH]

A Sprite, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:19 PM, said:

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

I have a hard time beliving the Jag could do this game.

[Gregory DG]

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:32 PM, said:

Dont confuse good development tools with power. That is the 3d0's clear advantage.

Yeah the games look more polished on 3DO because they are.

My comment was really just echoing this quote. Just by looking at comparable games side by side, it looks like the 3DO had the advantage in power thanks to their dev tools. I only wish Atari had done the same with their tools so we could see some better comparisons.

[Mord]

I saw the title of this thread, saw the 32x thread sitting right below it, and I swear my blood went cold.


--
Mord
"Oh god... not again"

[Fighter17]

3DO wins out of the Jaguar and the CD-i.

More better games.
Good hardware (for its time).
Actually play imports from Japan (well if you're into importing).

The two things I hate about it:

Price tag at lunch.
The daisy-chain controller idea (who's fucking idea was that).

I know the daisy-chain controller was supposed to save money on parts, but it's just flat out weird playing two player games when controller two is attached to controller one. But it's cool when second player pisses you off and you can disconnect his controller.

At least it has porn on it.

[Gunstar]

Fighter17, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:59 PM, said:

3DO wins out of the Jaguar and the CD-i.

More better games.
Good hardware (for its time).
Actually play imports from Japan (well if you're into importing).

The two things I hate about it:

Price tag at lunch.
The daisy-chain controller idea (who's fucking idea was that).

I know the daisy-chain controller was supposed to save money on parts, but it's just flat out weird playing two player games when controller two is attached to controller one. But it's cool when second player pisses you off and you can disconnect his controller.

At least it has porn on it.

The thread is about system POWER, not whether there are more (true)or better (subjective) games and whether it plays imports etc., it's not about which system made more of a "splash" on the market, but the nitty-gritty of which has the power under the hood. And that is NOT something that can be proven easily. But you are right that it's good hardware, but so is the Jaguar. As for imports, the Jaguar is ALSO non regional, which means any Jaguar cartridge or CD bought anywhere in the world, will work on any Jaguar anywhere in the world, just like 3DO CD's. I also agree about the daisy-chain thing, but it's really not too big of a deal, and the bonus of that setup is you don't need a port expander like you do on the Jaguar, Saturn, PSX and most other systems to play more than two player games. But getting back to your more&better games, yeah, the 3DO has twice as many games as the Jaguar, not counting the instructional video software crap, but JUST games. Your right, the 3DO has MORE good games than the Jaguar, becuase of it's larger library, but it also has more BAD games becuase of it's larger library. But as to the best 3DO games being better than the best Jaguar games is subjective opinion, and I being a big fan of BOTH systems think that they both have their fair share of high-quality games and bad games. I'll continue to consider them both just as good as far as that goes. When it comes right down to it, there are about twenty games on BOTH systems that I love, and the rest I can take or leave, of course, that's MY subjective opinion.

I also agree that the 3DO beats out the CD-i, but so does the Jaguar, both by a MILE.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:43 PM.

[Gorf]

SINGLE TOOTH, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:35 PM, said:

A Sprite, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:19 PM, said:

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

I have a hard time beliving the Jag could do this game.

They way it was typically coded , your right. Code the Jag the way it should be and it wil do it at wice the frame rate.

[BuddyBuddies]

the Jaguar is the best ever!!!!

[Fighter17]

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:42 PM, said:

Fighter17, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:59 PM, said:

3DO wins out of the Jaguar and the CD-i.

More better games.
Good hardware (for its time).
Actually play imports from Japan (well if you're into importing).

The two things I hate about it:

Price tag at lunch.
The daisy-chain controller idea (who's fucking idea was that).

I know the daisy-chain controller was supposed to save money on parts, but it's just flat out weird playing two player games when controller two is attached to controller one. But it's cool when second player pisses you off and you can disconnect his controller.

At least it has porn on it.

The thread is about system POWER, not whether there are more (true)or better (subjective) games and whether it plays imports etc., it's not about which system made more of a "splash" on the market, but the nitty-gritty of which has the power under the hood. And that is NOT something that can be proven easily. But you are right that it's good hardware, but so is the Jaguar. As for imports, the Jaguar is ALSO non regional, which means any Jaguar cartridge or CD bought anywhere in the world, will work on any Jaguar anywhere in the world, just like 3DO CD's. I also agree about the daisy-chain thing, but it's really not too big of a deal, and the bonus of that setup is you don't need a port expander like you do on the Jaguar, Saturn, PSX and most other systems to play more than two player games. But getting back to your more&better games, yeah, the 3DO has twice as many games as the Jaguar, not counting the instructional video software crap, but JUST games. Your right, the 3DO has MORE good games than the Jaguar, becuase of it's larger library, but it also has more BAD games becuase of it's larger library. But as to the best 3DO games being better than the best Jaguar games is subjective opinion, and I being a big fan of BOTH systems think that they both have their fair share of high-quality games and bad games. I'll continue to consider them both just as good as far as that goes. When it comes right down to it, there are about twenty games on BOTH systems that I love, and the rest I can take or leave, of course, that's MY subjective opinion.

I also agree that the 3DO beats out the CD-i, but so does the Jaguar, both by a MILE.

True True True,

but I'm a 3DO boy by heart.

[kevin242]

A Sprite, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:19 PM, said:

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

what kind of drugs do you need tobe on to make that game fun? It's so damn slow I couldn't imagine playing it not even 12 years ago!

[Pete5125]

I had both about a year after the launch and the thing is cart vs. CD is a joke in my mind...many 32X games looked and played just as good or better than 1st year Saturn/PS1 games.

Back to the topic at hand 3DO hands down beat the Jag in both Graphics and Sound, their problem was control...the daisy chain thing was rediculous as stated above (it was worse than you can imagine because controlers would seperate during game play), Also the controler was assembled so pourley that you either had to adjust the screws or by a Goldstar controller...even if you did that 90% of the games the control would be off by a hair and they would have a delayed reaction.

The 3D0 had a ton of games 200-300 range I believe but only 20 to 30 were top tier and another 30-50 were average leaving the other 120 or so games as bad FMV or horrid games.

The saving grace was their 2nd eneration games, (Off World, NBA Jam, Street Fighter2, Samuri Showdown, GEX), EA Sports gave them many top notch games, and believe it or not they had a lot of TV Gameshow gmaes that were fun to play(Family Feud, Twisted, Pyramid, etc.)

If you bought a 3D0 and were very selective w/ your games then you would of had a supperior system vs PS1/Saturn gen 1 games at the time...
3D0 was the system that killed itself it had a fighting chance but it wouldn't stop talking aobout the upgrade system M2, so they lost develomental support..

Also even if it vs Jag w/ CD (64 bit CD)attached it still kills what was produced for the system look at Primal Rage, Space Ace, Dragons Lair, all look and sound as good or better on the 3D0 (32bit CD)...control/fun factor Atari always seemed to win in these categories (compared only to 3D0) to me.

[phuzaxeman]

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

[Gorf]

phuzaxeman, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:20 AM, said:

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

I agree on this with you. Its not about the power or the CD. ITs all about the tools.
to get the Jaguar to run at it rated speeds that have yet to be achieved, you have
to write code like this....

movei #val, r0
load	(r0), r1
addqt   #1,r1
store   r1,(r0)

this adds a value to a number

3DO, PS1, Saturn, 32x all use compilers and have code that looks more like this.....

val++;

Which gets translated to it's native code.

That is just simple example of the many more instructions and lines of code one has to type out,
debug and test. It is in most cases A LOT worse than this. This is a simple conversion.

Now you can understand a little better as to why the Jaguar never had games that really showed
it's stuff untill Battlesphere......All assembly!!!

Edited by Gorf, Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:53 AM.

[Gunstar]

phuzaxeman, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:20 AM, said:

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

You can afford it now. You can pick up a 3DO for less than $50 on E-bay and Need for Speed for less than $10. NFS is STILL one of my all time favorite games, 3DO version ONLY, all other versions SUCK compared to it. I still prefer playing the 3DO version over the latest PS2/3 and Xbox/360 or even Dreamcast racers.

But the Jaguar COULD pull off NFS even back then with the poor tools, it was even planned for the Jaguar. The Polygon count and "world" in NFS is quite low and narrow. If they could pull off Hoverstrike with all it's many more polygons and larger world, (yes, the frame-rate is less, but take away 75% of the polygons to match the number the 3DO is pumping out with NFS, and it's frame rate would be faster than 3DO's NFS) then NFS COULD have been done on the Jaguar. It's just a matter of getting it done by competent programmers who cared. With the tools the Jaugar has today, NFS would be even better on the Jaguar.

[Gorf]

Gunstar, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:22 AM, said:

phuzaxeman, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:20 AM, said:

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

You can afford it now. You can pick up a 3DO for less than $50 on E-bay and Need for Speed for less than $10. NFS is STILL one of my all time favorite games, 3DO version ONLY, all other versions SUCK compared to it. I still prefer playing the 3DO version over the latest PS2/3 and Xbox/360 or even Dreamcast racers.

But the Jaguar COULD pull off NFS even back then with the poor tools, it was even planned for the Jaguar. The Polygon count and "world" in NFS is quite low and narrow. If they could pull off Hoverstrike with all it's many more polygons and larger world, (yes, the frame-rate is less, but take away 75% of the polygons to match the number the 3DO is pumping out with NFS, and it's frame rate would be faster than 3DO's NFS) then NFS COULD have been done on the Jaguar. It's just a matter of getting it done by competent programmers who cared. With the tools the Jaugar has today, NFS would be even better on the Jaguar.

Convert the 68k code to the GPU and put all non time critical code for the GPU in main and Hoverstrike WILL
run at 30 fps or faster. I bet faster more than not even. And that is without cutting anything out.

Edited by Gorf, Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:57 AM.