296 replies to this topic

[Pete5125]

Gunstar, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:22 AM, said:

phuzaxeman, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:20 AM, said:

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

You can afford it now. You can pick up a 3DO for less than $50 on E-bay and Need for Speed for less than $10. NFS is STILL one of my all time favorite games, 3DO version ONLY, all other versions SUCK compared to it. I still prefer playing the 3DO version over the latest PS2/3 and Xbox/360 or even Dreamcast racers.

But the Jaguar COULD pull off NFS even back then with the poor tools, it was even planned for the Jaguar. The Polygon count and "world" in NFS is quite low and narrow. If they could pull off Hoverstrike with all it's many more polygons and larger world, (yes, the frame-rate is less, but take away 75% of the polygons to match the number the 3DO is pumping out with NFS, and it's frame rate would be faster than 3DO's NFS) then NFS COULD have been done on the Jaguar. It's just a matter of getting it done by competent programmers who cared. With the tools the Jaugar has today, NFS would be even better on the Jaguar.

The coolest part of the game was that it was that every car had its own video telling you what the car could do you could see RX-7, Viper, Miata etc.

Also thank goodness the newer version of the game got rid of the guy you were driving against, he always had a comment to make that was just their to pee you off

[Gunstar]

Pete5125, on Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:15 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:22 AM, said:

phuzaxeman, on Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:20 AM, said:

i can't tell you the specs on a system and say which is more powerful. but i know that the games that i've seen on the 3DO looked cleaner and more refined in graphics and had better sound (cd might have that advantage).

3DO need for speed was amazing....too bad i couldn't afford that machine.

You can afford it now. You can pick up a 3DO for less than $50 on E-bay and Need for Speed for less than $10. NFS is STILL one of my all time favorite games, 3DO version ONLY, all other versions SUCK compared to it. I still prefer playing the 3DO version over the latest PS2/3 and Xbox/360 or even Dreamcast racers.

But the Jaguar COULD pull off NFS even back then with the poor tools, it was even planned for the Jaguar. The Polygon count and "world" in NFS is quite low and narrow. If they could pull off Hoverstrike with all it's many more polygons and larger world, (yes, the frame-rate is less, but take away 75% of the polygons to match the number the 3DO is pumping out with NFS, and it's frame rate would be faster than 3DO's NFS) then NFS COULD have been done on the Jaguar. It's just a matter of getting it done by competent programmers who cared. With the tools the Jaugar has today, NFS would be even better on the Jaguar.

The coolest part of the game was that it was that every car had its own video telling you what the car could do you could see RX-7, Viper, Miata etc.

Also thank goodness the newer version of the game got rid of the guy you were driving against, he always had a comment to make that was just their to pee you off

That was one of THE things I liked about the 3DO version was the guy pissing you off, or, praising you if you did good and you get more praise or more shit depending on how good or bad you did. I HATE the Saturn and PSX versions becuase they were just not quite the same in a lot of small ways and also becuase that guy WASN'T there. There's so many reasons the 3DO version is superior to the ported crap versions on the other systems. it would have been different if they had actually gotten the original developers, Pioneer Productions to do it, those guys were too good! After 10+ years of playing the 3DO version, that guy seems like an old buddy who razzes or praises you like buddies who compete always do. I love that guy! But if all he did was pee you off, then you must have really sucked at the game! I get lots of praise from him most of the time now, since I'm so good at it, oh, and I am good at the game, in fact, I'd bet my life that I'm the best in the WORLD at the 3DO version of NFS, I only wish there was a classic pro-gamer contest to prove it. I can take some pics of my times, I guarantee no one will ever beat! I OWN on 3DO NFS! I'm willing to prove it to if I ever had a chance.

Edited by Gunstar, Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:08 PM.

[Trip_Cannon]

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

The Jaguar no doubt has more horsepower but it was design with two chips completeley
unknown to anyone but Atari and FlareII , their designers. Brainstorm is one company
making tools, 3DO no doubt had many more. Hate to say it but trying to adapt MADMAC
and ALN to fit the Jaguar was not only ass-o-nine but also proved lethal. The system
cannot be coded with the tools made for the Atari 800 and ST! Because of this, any real
power needs to be done by hand assembly, which takes forever, hence a game like
Battle Sphere. Getting performance like that in no 6 month coding job. Especially for
two guys.

Was there any documentation provided to developers to help handle machine specific code for Atari's custom chips? I think I remember reading awhile back that Atari was very strict with their docs and didn't provide it to very many coders or companies. I also seem to remember in that article (which may be BS as my memory of it is foggy) that Jeff Minter was able to "steal" some of the Jag's tools while at the Atari's headquarters to use in T2k... If that were true, it sure as hell doesn't make any sense... but like I said, the article I saw was a while back...

[spiffyone]

A Sprite, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:19 PM, said:

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

Oh, I never said it couldn't run real time polygon games. I just stated that Crash 'N Burn wasn't the game to look at for that sort of thing.

Dr. Hauzer, Alone in the Dark 1 and 2, Star Fighter, Need for Speed, Autobahn Tokio, and quite a few others, however, are.

The thing one has to remember about a game like Dr. Hauzer is that that that game isn't using pre-rendered backgrounds like AitD 1 and 2 or something like Resident Evil. That and the 3 different camera views, etc. put it ahead of most games of the time.

And, yes, it's actually a pretty decent 3D adventure game.

Also, Gorf, aside from the tools one has to say that CD-ROM holds a distinct advantage over cartridges in the fact that the former can hold more info. So while any of these games could be possible on Jaguar sans CD, the question remains: would they fit?

Chop off the audio and video samples, and they probably would.

I mean, that Highlander game for Jag CD is pretty much using a similar graphical style to the AitD games, only better.

Hmm...kinda might be like RE2 on PSone vs. the version on N64.

[spiffyone]

Trip_Cannon, on Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:22 AM, said:

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

The Jaguar no doubt has more horsepower but it was design with two chips completeley
unknown to anyone but Atari and FlareII , their designers. Brainstorm is one company
making tools, 3DO no doubt had many more. Hate to say it but trying to adapt MADMAC
and ALN to fit the Jaguar was not only ass-o-nine but also proved lethal. The system
cannot be coded with the tools made for the Atari 800 and ST! Because of this, any real
power needs to be done by hand assembly, which takes forever, hence a game like
Battle Sphere. Getting performance like that in no 6 month coding job. Especially for
two guys.

Was there any documentation provided to developers to help handle machine specific code for Atari's custom chips? I think I remember reading awhile back that Atari was very strict with their docs and didn't provide it to very many coders or companies. I also seem to remember in that article (which may be BS as my memory of it is foggy) that Jeff Minter was able to "steal" some of the Jag's tools while at the Atari's headquarters to use in T2k... If that were true, it sure as hell doesn't make any sense... but like I said, the article I saw was a while back...

This is pretty much what Sega and especially Nintendo did back in the day. Sega kinda changed their tune with Dreamcast...but by then...*sighs, I miss Sega. Nintendo still does it...but not to the level that they did with SNES and N64.

Remember that little tidbit of coding that Gorf put up? I remember reading that AM2 with Shenmue and a few of their other games for that console didn't really use compilers and wrote it in Saturn machine code piece by piece (because Yu Suzuki actually bragged about it...and has always bragged, humbly so, about himself being an engineer who happens to develop video games). And some of the tools that Factor 5 wrote for N64 were first broken down to assembly by them, iirc, and then they wrote compilers for that stuff themselves (to make it easier to use in the future) because the official tools actually strapped the system. Hence their Star Wars games on N64 being, IMHO, the de facto top tier in terms of graphics prowess for that entire generation and Factor 5 being really, really talented devs.

I also recall some PSone games that were written "to the hardware" (I think Omega Boost was one of them) toward the end of that console's life cycle. Ironically, this was one of the reasons Sony made the PS2 the way they did. Guess they didn't see the influx of PC developers in the console space coming. MS did. Because MS sees everything.

They're probably watching us right now!

*runs away

[Gorf]

Trip_Cannon, on Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:22 AM, said:

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:13 PM, said:

The Jaguar no doubt has more horsepower but it was design with two chips completeley
unknown to anyone but Atari and FlareII , their designers. Brainstorm is one company
making tools, 3DO no doubt had many more. Hate to say it but trying to adapt MADMAC
and ALN to fit the Jaguar was not only ass-o-nine but also proved lethal. The system
cannot be coded with the tools made for the Atari 800 and ST! Because of this, any real
power needs to be done by hand assembly, which takes forever, hence a game like
Battle Sphere. Getting performance like that in no 6 month coding job. Especially for
two guys.

Was there any documentation provided to developers to help handle machine specific code for Atari's custom chips? I think I remember reading awhile back that Atari was very strict with their docs and didn't provide it to very many coders or companies. I also seem to remember in that article (which may be BS as my memory of it is foggy) that Jeff Minter was able to "steal" some of the Jag's tools while at the Atari's headquarters to use in T2k... If that were true, it sure as hell doesn't make any sense... but like I said, the article I saw was a while back...

No we have everything. I am the guy who got the develper kit to everyone as I begged Brainstorm for it.
They were not hearing giving up the sources, even though they have to according to the GPL but to this day
they have not released any sources at all. I know we have all the tools as Brainstorm opened up the server
for me with a password and there it was...all 16 glorious megs!!!

The Tramiels were a lot less anal in that regard then when Warner owned Atari.

Edited by Gorf, Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:03 PM.

[Gorf]

spiffyone, on Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:28 PM, said:

A Sprite, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:19 PM, said:

A 3DO survival horror game. In case anyone needs a good look at it running a real time polygon engine.

Oh, I never said it couldn't run real time polygon games. I just stated that Crash 'N Burn wasn't the game to look at for that sort of thing.

Dr. Hauzer, Alone in the Dark 1 and 2, Star Fighter, Need for Speed, Autobahn Tokio, and quite a few others, however, are.

The thing one has to remember about a game like Dr. Hauzer is that that that game isn't using pre-rendered backgrounds like AitD 1 and 2 or something like Resident Evil. That and the 3 different camera views, etc. put it ahead of most games of the time.

And, yes, it's actually a pretty decent 3D adventure game.

Also, Gorf, aside from the tools one has to say that CD-ROM holds a distinct advantage over cartridges in the fact that the former can hold more info. So while any of these games could be possible on Jaguar sans CD, the question remains: would they fit?

Chop off the audio and video samples, and they probably would.

I mean, that Highlander game for Jag CD is pretty much using a similar graphical style to the AitD games, only better.

Hmm...kinda might be like RE2 on PSone vs. the version on N64.

Another big complaint of mine coding the Jaguar is they put all this power in this box and only gave it two megs.
It's not like they could add much more without raising the price astronomically as that was during the time when
memory was a lot more expensive. However.....Doom is pure proof that what make take more on one machine
is not the case with every machine. The original PC DOOM needed four megs. They fit it rather nicely in two.

The Jaguar and the Nuon are extremely effecient in their use of memory as they have the same designers.
You can see it in the noun doing almost DC quality games with 8 megs instead of 16.

So all in all I bet even in cart form the Jaguar could have done those 3DO titles as the cart can allow
for some serious compression. The two megs is more of a pain in the ass than a limit. It's plenty of
space but you have to do a little more planning and coding to make it all fit.

Edited by Gorf, Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:02 PM.

[jesusc]

The movement in Dr. Hauser doesn't look any more gimped than the movement in Highlander, and it is all real time.

Which platform is more powerful? I have no idea from a tech spec point of view, but based on games, I see more textures and better frame rates in the 3DO games. Also the 3DO library smokes the jaguar in all areas but killer app. If I were stranded and could only take either a 3DO or a Jaguar and only one game, it'd be Jag and Tempest. I love me some Star Control II, but it doesn't have that "gotta play again and again" fervor that T2K does.

Is it possible for this board to have a reasonable debate concerning what multi platform games were graphically better on either system? There was Doom, Primal Rage, Cannon Fodder, Syndicate, Dragon's Lair, Brain Dead 13, Wolfenstein, Flashback, Myst, and Theme Park. I know Robinson's Requiem was announced for Jag, but did it get to a beta state?

I've only played a few recently, but I state:
Jag Doom over 3DO Doom, no contest.
3DO Primal Rage over Jag Rage

[Gorf]

jesusc, on Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:20 PM, said:

I've only played a few recently, but I state:
Jag Doom over 3DO Doom, no contest.
3DO Primal Rage over Jag Rage

Its not a question of titles I dont think. The Jaguar does have a handful of good ones.
3DO has a lot more. More support and better tools will always be a plus for development.

The Jag is no question technically more powerful. If the developer coded it as it was
supposed to be we not be even having this conversation.

The 3DO was a great system at the time but way overpriced when you consider everything
before it was a third or less in cost. The Jaguar for what they made it with is rather amazing,
just more than Atari or the developers it had knew what to do with, with a few exceptions.

The biggest problem is putting Tom & Jerry in that design. It essentially cripples those two chips.
The 68k was a stupid idea. Ok..020's were not cheap but how about another TOM processor core
instead? Use the TOM chip and strip all other silicon out and replace it with more local ram for the
GPU core to fit alot more code. Do the game logic on that IN PARALLEL with the Grpahics and sound
never having any bus contentions. Triple to qudruple the ability easy.

Then again the proper tools even with the crippled Jag would have done fine.




The Jaguar should have been the coJag in a console. It could have kept right up with a
Playstation.

[Segataritensoftii]

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:13 PM, said:

4 X 12hmz = 48hmz so yeah

Megahertz, not Hegamertz! Sorry, that just popped into my head.

[Fighter17]

FYI:

3DO > Jaguar

[Gorf]

Fighter17, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:48 PM, said:

FYI:

3DO > Jaguar

Please clarify...in terms of raw power, not a chance. Jaguar
has at least twice the data moving power. Two 27 mhz
RISC chips against one 12 MHZ ARM...Not on its best day.

Games available fine...its not by any means a Jaguar in power.

[Gorf]

Segataritensoftii, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:30 PM, said:

Gorf, on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:13 PM, said:

4 X 12hmz = 48hmz so yeah

Megahertz, not Hegamertz! Sorry, that just popped into my head.

Yeah I've been having typing dyslexia lately... ;P

[Fighter17]

Gorf, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:25 PM, said:

Fighter17, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:48 PM, said:

FYI:

3DO > Jaguar

Please clarify...in terms of raw power, not a chance. Jaguar
has at least twice the data moving power. Two 27 mhz
RISC chips against one 12 MHZ ARM...Not on its best day.

Games available fine...its not by any means a Jaguar in power.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

3DO wins by everything.

Note: I'm a 3DO fanboy, this is just an act. I know the Jaguar is more powerful if use correctly.

Edited by Fighter17, Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:29 PM.

[phuzaxeman]

Gorf, on Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:35 PM, said:

jesusc, on Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:20 PM, said:

I've only played a few recently, but I state:
Jag Doom over 3DO Doom, no contest.
3DO Primal Rage over Jag Rage

....The Jaguar should have been the coJag in a console. It could have kept right up with a
Playstation.

i always loved the jag and don't regret buying it when it first came out...i also don't know much about the hardware specs between the playstation and jaguar. the jag is a unique system in its own right despite commerical failure from atari.

and i do also know that the playstation games are at a whole different level in comparison, owning both systems back in the day and even today....i don't think the jag could have kept up with playstation in anyway (graphics, controller, depth of games, sound, etc).

you can take any decent title (not necessarily a grea title) on a playstation and it will take the jaguar's best game anyday in terms of graphics and depth of a game and sound (let alone gameplay).

i do know that the psx was relatively easy to program because Sony provided solid development tools and because it had one processing chip with a 3D geometry engine in the CPU that help made the playstation last for over a decade(yeah 3rd party helps too)...the sound was also groundbreaking...to think a console released around 94 (japan) that had games made up to 2005 is really amazing if you think about it.

you could technically say the jag could have hung with the playstation but i don't even treat them in the same generation...nor do i think the jag is better than the 3DO either in terms of sound, graphics, and depth on a strictly game comparison....and even if the jag did have the tools, the hardware, and support, compared to psx, i think it's irrelevent to bring it up because it could never happen, never did, never will compare to the playstation....

the jag is what it is, a powerful unique system back in its day, that was never fully used with a few good/great games and a quite a number of horrible games imho, but i still love it :-)

Edited by phuzaxeman, Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:13 PM.

[Gunstar]

I'm a 3DO and Jaguar fanboy. Though the Jaguar will always have a place in my heart just one notch above the 3DO becuase I was an Atari fan for many years even before the the Jaguar and 3DO came out, and there's jsut something about my favorite Jaguar games that the 3DO just doesn't quite match in playability. It was Atari's last best chance at regaining it's former glory and I wanted to believe, and although it never quite delivered on it's promise, due to Atari Corp. mismanagement, poor marketing and lack of proper developer support and tools, I still love a lot of the Jaguar's games more than the 3DO's for the most part. There are about 3 or 4 3DO games that I love to death, but any day of the week I'd take the 3 or 4 Jaguar titles I love to death over the 3DO ones. Not becuase they are on the Jaguar, just becuase overall, I find them more fun. I agree with the above assement of the Playstation and 3DO compared to the Jaguar except for one point made, that of there being no Jaguar games that compete with the Playstation iand 3DO in terms of game depth. There are some Jaguar games that have just as much depth as on any other console in my opinion, less games, yes, becuase it's library is so much smaller, but they are there none the less. And although I do truly believe that the Jaguar has untapped power that can outclass the 3DO, and could have come close to the Playstation, it hasn't happened yet in regards to the Playstation, but I feel there are a few better Jaguar games every bit as good as some of the better 3DO games. The bottom line is that I find my favorite Jaguar games more fun and with more replay value thatn my favorite 3DO games. I really don't care what others opinions are on the two consoles, all that matters to me is my own. So argue all you want, it won't ever change the fact that I prefer the Jaguar over the 3DO and that I prefer both over the Playstation, Saturn, N64, Dreamcast, and the later and latest generations. I'm old school now, and I really don't give a damn about the Wii's new controller scheme, it would make sense to me if it was virtual reality helmet/goggles based, but on a two dimensional screen, I could care less and prefer standard digital and analog controllers. As far as graphics, I haven't been impressed since the Dreamcast, sure they are better on the newer systems, but they've reached a point were it's all the same to me now, and it all comes down to how much fun I have, and I have more fun with the consoles from the last century, and I get more excited seeing how those old consoles can be pushed further than before than I ever will over the latest graphics that come with ease on the latest systems. I could care less. I don't ever plan on buying a game console again that was released after the turn of the century, unless it's virtual reality based, or they invent a game system that is holographic in nature. Otherwise, it's all been done as far as I'm concerned. I sold my PS2, I sold my Xbox and I don't plan on getting them again. I'm quite happy with my Jaguar, 3DO and Dreamcast, as well as the older genesis/SegaCD/32x. But the Jaguar will always remain my favorite due to games like Battlemorph, Iron Soldier 1&2, Hover Strike CD, I-war, World Tour Racing, Missle Command 3D, Tempest 2000, Doom, Wolfenstein, AvP, and several others. The 3DO will always remain my second favorite due to The Need for Speed, Star Fighter, Spacehulk, Battlesport, Wing Commander and a few others. I still hope to see some Jaguar games in the future that will tap more of it's hidden potential, that I still believe it has, and was untapped becuase Atari screwed up.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:34 AM.

[phuzaxeman]

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:25 AM, said:

....There are about 3 or 4 3DO games that I love to death, but any day of the week I'd take the 3 or 4 Jaguar titles I love to death over the 3DO ones. Not becuase they are on the Jaguar, just becuase overall, I find them more fun. I agree with the above assement of the Playstation and 3DO compared to the Jaguar except for one point made, that of there being no Jaguar games that compete with the Playstation iand 3DO in terms of game depth. There are some Jaguar games that have just as much depth as on any other console in my opinion, less games, yes, becuase it's library is so much smaller, but they are there none the less. And although I do truly believe that the Jaguar has untapped power that can outclass the 3DO, and could have come close to the Playstation, it hasn't happened yet in regards to the Playstation, but I feel there are a few better Jaguar games every bit as good as some of the better 3DO games. The bottom line is that I find my favorite Jaguar games more fun and with more replay value thatn my favorite 3DO games. I really don't care what others opinions are on the two consoles, all that matters to me is my own....

i've owned every video game system of atari during the times they came out (practically a toddler when atari pong was bought for me by my dad). so i have loyalty toward atari. it all comes down to what you want and if you're having fun with a system. but i'm also a gamer too, and i see what i see. i've learned to enjoy all the other systems that i've owned that are non atari. if you're happy with what you have on your jaguar, then that's the most important thing. for me, i was disappointed of the jag. i still love the system, but being the last console with mostly a bunch of ok games on a system that wasn't used to its potential was frustrating...the lynx has so many great games, i was hoping the jag would too during that time...

as far as depth, i was refering to games like gran turismo, tekken series, final fantasy VII, maiden on the psx...there's so much variation and depth in those games compared to the games on the jag.

favorite all time systems for me(in no particular order):
lynx (how long did it take for technology to overtake this beast?)
5200 (close to lynx in terms good games to bad)
dreamcast (love it....this system changed the world of gaming...soul caliber, skies of arcadia, tennis are still great)
playstation 2 (can play all the ps1 games...gran turismo 4 is the sh&t. i bought a new car because of this game...sport games are amazing)
2600 (need i say more?)
intellivision (snafu, advanced dungeons and dragons, voice synthsis-i love this system too)

Edited by phuzaxeman, Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:40 AM.

[Gorf]

phuzaxeman, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:10 AM, said:

the jag is what it is, a powerful unique system back in its day, that was never fully used with a few good/great games and a quite a number of horrible games imho, but i still love it :-)

Fact:

The Jaguar does better cleaner texturing and special effects...in hardware Sony cant.

Fact:

The Jaguar definitely has better sound

Fact:

The Jaguar will out do the PS1 at math.


You can point to software all you want but tools and bad decisions are the reasons why
the Jaguar was not able to compete and nothing else. Again the PS1 is three years later
tech and hardly paramount improvement for that amount of time. The playstation should
have listed at $200. That was what it was worth based on technical abilities of that time.

Jaguar was a gigantic leap over anything of its time. it even gave PC's a run for its money
and completely outclassed it in color depth at the time. Playstations did not introduce anything
new except higher poly counts and Textures. IT offered more power but nothing at all ground
breaking. All the next gens could texture map. What features can you name? I doubt many if
any at all.


Game likes are opinions are like assholes...every one has ones.Mine is oposite of yours and
no less valid. I still can t think of any game that would make me own a ps1 or any newer
console. Im a classics lover and Atari has the best of them (Midway too.) Sony has not ONE
classic arcade title it can call its own.

Atari so owns in this respect over every other game company ith exception of Midway,
makers of my favorite game....Gorf.

[Gunstar]

phuzaxeman, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:25 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:25 AM, said:

....There are about 3 or 4 3DO games that I love to death, but any day of the week I'd take the 3 or 4 Jaguar titles I love to death over the 3DO ones. Not becuase they are on the Jaguar, just becuase overall, I find them more fun. I agree with the above assement of the Playstation and 3DO compared to the Jaguar except for one point made, that of there being no Jaguar games that compete with the Playstation iand 3DO in terms of game depth. There are some Jaguar games that have just as much depth as on any other console in my opinion, less games, yes, becuase it's library is so much smaller, but they are there none the less. And although I do truly believe that the Jaguar has untapped power that can outclass the 3DO, and could have come close to the Playstation, it hasn't happened yet in regards to the Playstation, but I feel there are a few better Jaguar games every bit as good as some of the better 3DO games. The bottom line is that I find my favorite Jaguar games more fun and with more replay value thatn my favorite 3DO games. I really don't care what others opinions are on the two consoles, all that matters to me is my own....

i've owned every video game system of atari during the times they came out (practically a toddler when atari pong was bought for me by my dad). so i have loyalty toward atari. it all comes down to what you want and if you're having fun with a system. but i'm also a gamer too, and i see what i see. i've learned to enjoy all the other systems that i've owned that are non atari. if you're happy with what you have on your jaguar, then that's the most important thing. for me, i was disappointed of the jag. i still love the system, but being the last console with mostly a bunch of ok games on a system that wasn't used to its potential was frustrating...the lynx has so many great games, i was hoping the jag would too during that time...

as far as depth, i was refering to games like gran turismo, tekken series, final fantasy VII, maiden on the psx...there's so much variation and depth in those games compared to the games on the jag.

favorite all time systems for me(in no particular order):
lynx (how long did it take for technology to overtake this beast?)
5200 (close to lynx in terms good games to bad)
dreamcast (love it....this system changed the world of gaming...soul caliber, skies of arcadia, tennis are still great)
playstation 2 (can play all the ps1 games...gran turismo 4 is the sh&t. i bought a new car because of this game...sport games are amazing)
2600 (need i say more?)
intellivision (snafu, advanced dungeons and dragons, voice synthsis-i love this system too)

Obviously are perspectives and opinions on "depth" and "variation" are quite different. I don't find Gran Turismo to have depth. I find it to have a long, tiresome and completely boring "game" concept of having to go through all these driving tests to finally access the good stuff after hours and hours of trial and error; about as much fun to me as taking a real driving test. I MUCH prefer The Need For Speed where you can choose from the world's top exotic cars from the start and have FUN driving them without having to take a driving course in order to do it. Tekken? Depth?!? It's a FIGHTING game and that's all, and has no more depth than ANY other fighting game I've ever played, including ones on the Jaguar. Final fantasy? That may be the only one that has real "depth," but I can't stand Japanese RPG's, I'd rather have root canal surgery.
Now Alien Vs. Predator, with HUGE levels, great atmosphere, a fear factor, and 3 different scenarios with 3 different characters that play in 3 completely different ways, now to me, that's depth and variation. Iron Soldier 1&2 with 12-20 missions each, with half a dozen or more different types of missions, and large variations within the types and a bunch of aquirable weapons and are quite different and are used differently in different missions in a 360 degree world where I can choose the path to complete the missions, that's real depth and variation to me. Battlemorph with levels, that seemlessly go from land to underwater to underground and back again, and tons of them, also with many unique aquirable weapons that are for unique purposes on many different unique missions, that's depth and variation to me. And all are far more fun, to me, than any of the 3 games you mentioned. Now obviously these are your and my OPINIONS, but there ARE far better titles on the Playstation I would have chosen to prove game "depth" and "variation." And the Jaguar has titles with real depth and variation too. Oh, and when I was refering to 3-4 3DO and jaguar games, don't think that that's all I find very fun and entertaining on those systems, not by a long shot, but everyone has a few top favorites on a system of all time, that's what I was refering too.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:49 AM.

[fishsandwich]

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:13 PM, said:

Tekken? Depth?!? It's a FIGHTING game and that's all, and has no more depth than ANY other fighting game I've ever played, including ones on the Jaguar.

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.)

Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together.

[phuzaxeman]

Fact:

"The Jaguar does better cleaner texturing and special effects...in hardware Sony cant."

sure you can say that. you're a programmer. name me one game on the jag that the sony can't do in terms of texturing and special effects?




Fact:

"The Jaguar definitely has better sound"

why because the jag is not limited to its hardware? fact: most games (if not all on the jag) are barely mixed in stereo let alone surrond sound with poor seperation in the mix (most games are mixed into mono sounding quality). also, the signal output coming from the jags audio is pretty low in DB in comparison to other systems.

Fact:

"The Jaguar will out do the PS1 at math."

unfortunately for the jag, it wasn't able to calculate the number of poor quality titles to good ones....

Edited by phuzaxeman, Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:42 PM.

[phuzaxeman]

fishsandwich, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:19 PM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:13 PM, said:

Tekken? Depth?!? It's a FIGHTING game and that's all, and has no more depth than ANY other fighting game I've ever played, including ones on the Jaguar.

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.)

Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together.

i wouldn't know where to start in terms of fighting games for the jag vs a game like tekken 3 on the playstation....when you talk about breakrhough fighting engine, to graphics, animation, number of character, playabilty, easter eggs, games within game, bonus characters, music/sound, combos, bosses, there's so much to mention in depth and overall gameplay.

if you're an avid fan of fighting games, the jags fighting games are some of the worst of all time...yier of the kung fu (c64), karate champ (80's arcade), world karate championship (8bit), karateka (8bit), MK (genesis), punch out (nes), MK II (snes) all are better than the jags fighting games. i so wanted (yeah in 96 when i got it) ultra vortek to be the savior of fighting games on the jag (after owning fight for life, ninja, and bruce lee)....but it didn't happen.

if i'm the only one that thinks that about that in jag fighting games, oh well....i guess i'm the minority in here.

Edited by phuzaxeman, Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:39 PM.

[spiffyone]

Gorf, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:25 PM, said:

Fighter17, on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:48 PM, said:

FYI:

3DO > Jaguar

Please clarify...in terms of raw power, not a chance. Jaguar
has at least twice the data moving power. Two 27 mhz
RISC chips against one 12 MHZ ARM...Not on its best day.

Games available fine...its not by any means a Jaguar in power.

Not entirely accurate, IMHO, Gorf.

Two 27 Mhz RISC chips in Jag, one of which is Jerry on which the DSP is housed which is 32-bits internally but tied to the bus at 16-bits, the other which is Tom and houses the 32-bit GPU and 64-bit Object Processor and Blitter and a 16/32 68k vs. the 12.5 Mhz ARM (which is a RISC device as well) of a different design (and, as such, quoting clock rates isn't a really good tool for comparison) and a math co-processor for helping to offload heavy lifting for the ARM, and two 25Mhz 32-bit video co-processors (which are basically to 3DO's ARM as the Blitter and Object Processor are to Jag's GPU) and a 16-bit DSP.

So it's not two 27Mhz RISC chips in the Jag. It's a 32/64-bit RISC (Tom: GPU 32-bits, Object Processor and Blitter 64-bits) tied to a 64-bit bus, a 32-bit RISC (Jerry) that is tied to the bus at 16-bits and can do more than sound work and a 16/32-bit 68k tied to a 16-bit bus (but we can ignore that one obviously).

And in 3DO it's not one 12 Mhz ARM, but a 12.5 Mhz ARM CPU, a math co-processor that speeds up the math and therefore off-loads some of the workload from the ARM, two 25Mhz 32-bit video co-processors (the heart of the graphics operations in 3DO much like the Blitter and Object Processor are for Jaguar), and a 16-bit DSP.

Furthermore, although Tom is rated at 27Mhz, it is not of the same design as the ARM60 that 3DO uses, so comparing clock speed in such a case isn't a good indication of power. Undoubtedly, though, the OP and Blitter in Jag have the advantage because they are can shift more data (at 64-bits), as does the GPU even though it is 32-bits due to the fact that it is still tied to the 64-bit bus. But 3DO might have the advantage here in computational power due to the design of the ARM60 and the addition of a math co-processor that can help off-load the burden on the ARM and thus speed things up. On Jag, to help out the GPU working as "CPU" like the math processor does for the ARM in 3DO would necessitate going to the DSP or the 68k as a co-processor of sorts (for game logic, AI, etc.). The latter, as you've said, is complete ass. The former would be better if the DSP were tied to the bus at 64-bits or even 32-bits, but because it's tied to the bus at 16-bits it would slow things down just as the 68k did (though not as drastically because the DSP is a true 32-bit chip).

So I'd say 3DO might have the advantage in game logic, AI, etc., however slight that may be. Jag has the advantage in graphics, but really only if one uses the type of development that you are using (which is not using the 68k and instead using the GPU as the "CPU"). Otherwise...well, as we've seen with our own eyes, no.

Add to that the inherent difficulty in Jaguar development vs. 3DO development and it may be, IMHO, another case of PSone vs. Saturn, or rather PSone vs. N64. Or even Dreamcast vs. PS2. That is, the former in each case was much easier to develop and therefore could be on a much more even keel with the latter, even though the latter in each case could have been seen as more powerful if they were designed "properly" (that is, properly for game development).

[spiffyone]

fishsandwich, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:19 PM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:13 PM, said:

Tekken? Depth?!? It's a FIGHTING game and that's all, and has no more depth than ANY other fighting game I've ever played, including ones on the Jaguar.

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.)

Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together.

Actually, Tekken is one of the deeper 3D fighters out there. Not as deep as Virtua Fighter, mind you, but deeper than Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive, and much, much deeper than any of the 3D Mortal Kombat games.

For 2D, there's Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike, the Guilty Gear games, Last Blade 2, Garou: Mark of the Wolves, etc.

Yes, fighters can be deep. Casuals, like Gunstar obviously is in terms of the fighting game genre, never understand the differences, much like those that don't understand the differences between shmups or sim racers or sports games. In fighting games, the game engine and the complexity therein changes everything in terms of comparison with other fighting games.

There's a reason there are still tournaments for Alpha 2 or even Super Turbo. It isn't because anyone can walk in there and smash it up. It's because it takes quite a long time to be really good at such games and being really good at such games means knowing character balance, hit boxes, frames of animation on each and every last move, buffers, links, cancels, spacing, etc.

So, yes, Tekken is much deeper than Fight for Life. Virtua Fighter completely rapes Fight for Life in terms of complexity. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is infinitely deeper than Ultra Vortek, and UV is a friggin' joke of a fighting game compared to anything Capcom or SNK have come out with for that matter, just as MK is a joke of a fighter.

Gunstar obviously doesn't like the genre or doesn't understand and therefore isn't good enough at it to truly comment on what is or what is not "deep" in terms of the genre.

[Gunstar]

fishsandwich, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:19 PM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:13 PM, said:

Tekken? Depth?!? It's a FIGHTING game and that's all, and has no more depth than ANY other fighting game I've ever played, including ones on the Jaguar.

NONE of the Jaguar's fighting games are particularly memorable (unless you count FFL which is memorable for being surprisingly shitty.)

Are you slamming the entire FIGHTING genre as a whole because the Jaguar doesn't have any first-rate fighting games or because you just don't like fighting games as a whole? Are Tekken, FFL, Kasumi Ninja, and Ultra Vortex the only fighting games you have ever played? Tekken might not be a particularly "deep" fighting game but it's a hell of a lot better than all of the Jaguars fighting games put together.

I'm not slamming ANY fighting games at all, just stating that I'd hardly consider the fighting game genre to have "depth," and this doesn't mean that fighting games are great games, just that they are shallow; an RPG, for example, would be a genre that traditionally has a lot of depth, fighters don't, that's all. I like fighters, and they can have a lot of "variation" but not "depth" in my book. And Jaguar fighters are certainly not the only fighters I've ever played by a long shot. But your assumption that they are all I've played shows YOUR lack of depth. And whether the entire world disagrees with me or not, I DO think Ultra Vortek is a first-rate fighter and every bit as good, to me, as Mortal Kombat series. My favorites are Soul Caliber, Tekken, Ultra Vortek, Samuri Shodown, and the Street Fighter series, and of course the Mortal Kombat series. But I also like others too.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:43 PM.