Jaguar vs. Neo Geo AES

[Salvatore]

Sorry, but I had to start this.

 

In 2D gaming the Neo Geo in my opinion is a monster and better than a jaguar.

 

In 3D the Neo Geo is not good at all and the Jaguar is far superior.

 

But I perfere 2D gaming ( fighters & shmups) forolder consoles.

[Gorf]

Sorry, but I had to start this.

 

In 2D gaming the Neo Geo in my opinion is a monster and better than a jaguar.

 

In 3D the Neo Geo is not good at all and the Jaguar is far superior.

 

But I perfere 2D gaming ( fighters & shmups) forolder consoles.

 

NG had the game titles over jag. IT is NOT better techincally than a Jaguar. Just

supported a hell of a lot better. And we already did this thread ifIm not mistaken.

 

The Jagaur can move 24 bit color sprites around like the NG can do 256 color sprites.

 

That is 3 times the data movement right there. That is just ONE processor. That means

I still have 3 left....I dont count the 68k. That should be in bed after boot up anyway.

 

For it's time nothing was as powerful as the Neo Geo at 2D or anywhere near that many

sprites. Not even close. Though the NG was a tech monster than. The kind of chips we

are talking about in the Jaguar are far more flexible and far more advanced. The other

issue with Jaguar is 2 megs of ram can be eaten quickly by higher bit images.

[Fredifredo]

Jaguar is more powerful than a Neo Geo... Neo Geo has a special bus and hardware to manage more rom capacity...

Only 4 poor Megs for the jag ... ( no games with 6 M exists ! )

[Gorf]

Jaguar is more powerful than a Neo Geo... Neo Geo has a special bus and hardware to manage more rom capacity...

Only 4 poor Megs for the jag ... ( no games with 6 M exists ! )

 

 

Yes and 6 megs is nothing if you use a lot of 24 bit images. If Jag had more RAM it

would help to allow more and larger 24 bit sprites. Still it will destroy the NG in shear

sprite numbers and in color(16 bit CRY). There is a 380 sprite limit on the NG. There

is no such limit. The limit of the Jaguar is determined by the amount of band width

and ram you have. Not to mention the sprites acn be of ANY size up to 4096 pixels!!!

(talk about over kill)....oh and not to mention Jag cost a third of NG at release.

[BuddyBuddies]

Jaguar is more powerful than a Neo Geo... Neo Geo has a special bus and hardware to manage more rom capacity...

Only 4 poor Megs for the jag ... ( no games with 6 M exists ! )

id like to second that buddy!!! the Jag does have a 6mb game if memory serves....

[sd32]

Native!!, just take a look at that game!!. Rayman is awesome looking too, even if its said to not be pushing the Jaguar that hard (or so i read). Just look at the colors the Jag can do. The Neo Geo rocks though, i love SNKs machine and its games.

Anyone knows anything about Legion Force Jidai, seems to be a Metal Slug type of game for the Jag that was announced by Terance The Graphics Man a while ago, but seems to be on hold. Just imagine, Metal Slug action on the Jag!!!!

[Gorf]

Native!!, just take a look at that game!!. Rayman is awesome looking too, even if its said to not be pushing the Jaguar that hard (or so i read). Just look at the colors the Jag can do. The Neo Geo rocks though, i love SNKs machine and its games.

Anyone knows anything about Legion Force Jidai, seems to be a Metal Slug type of game for the Jag that was announced by Terance The Graphics Man a while ago, but seems to be on hold. Just imagine, Metal Slug action on the Jag!!!!

 

 

and what you saw is a shitty version of it. It's come a long way.

[BuddyBuddies]

Native!!, just take a look at that game!!. Rayman is awesome looking too, even if its said to not be pushing the Jaguar that hard (or so i read). Just look at the colors the Jag can do. The Neo Geo rocks though, i love SNKs machine and its games.

Anyone knows anything about Legion Force Jidai, seems to be a Metal Slug type of game for the Jag that was announced by Terance The Graphics Man a while ago, but seems to be on hold. Just imagine, Metal Slug action on the Jag!!!!

 

 

and what you saw is a shitty version of it. It's come a long way.

buddybuddies hasnt seen any version...... totally terrible......

[walter_J64bit]

Native!!, just take a look at that game!!. Rayman is awesome looking too, even if its said to not be pushing the Jaguar that hard (or so i read). Just look at the colors the Jag can do. The Neo Geo rocks though, i love SNKs machine and its games.

Anyone knows anything about Legion Force Jidai, seems to be a Metal Slug type of game for the Jag that was announced by Terance The Graphics Man a while ago, but seems to be on hold. Just imagine, Metal Slug action on the Jag!!!!

 

 

and what you saw is a shitty version of it. It's come a long way.

Can we get any screen shots?

[BuddyBuddies]

Native!!, just take a look at that game!!. Rayman is awesome looking too, even if its said to not be pushing the Jaguar that hard (or so i read). Just look at the colors the Jag can do. The Neo Geo rocks though, i love SNKs machine and its games.

Anyone knows anything about Legion Force Jidai, seems to be a Metal Slug type of game for the Jag that was announced by Terance The Graphics Man a while ago, but seems to be on hold. Just imagine, Metal Slug action on the Jag!!!!

 

 

and what you saw is a shitty version of it. It's come a long way.

Can we get any screen shots?

yes,please!!

[Trip_Cannon]

Native has come a long way? Or Legion Force Jidai?

[Gorf]

Native has come a long way? Or Legion Force Jidai?

 

LFJ....However....Someone was actually reworking Native as well... I think MegaData was.

[A Sprite]

I get that the Jaguar is crippled vs. the Neo on ram and cart size, but I'm not convinced that knocks it out of the race. The Gameboy Advance played a decent King of Fighters and a good Metal Slug, despite much weaker hardware.

 

Neo Geo games were artifically inflated in size. No compression techniques were used - size mattered to the marketing department.

 

Add to that, the latest tricks programmers use to get more out of less, there's no reason the Jag can't handle almost anything the Neo could do - cart size limits disappear when you go to CD.

Edited August 31, 2007 by A Sprite

[Gorf]

I get that the Jaguar is crippled vs. the Neo on ram and cart size, but I'm not convinced that knocks it out of the race. The Gameboy Advance played a decent King of Fighters and a good Metal Slug, despite much weaker hardware.

 

Neo Geo games were artifically inflated in size. No compression techniques were used - size mattered to the marketing department.

 

Add to that, the latest tricks programmers use to get more out of less, there's no reason the Jag can't handle almost anything the Neo could do - cart size limits disappear when you go to CD.

 

 

The Jaguar can do ANY Neo Geo game from cart and even in 16 bit color depths

because the compression abilities of the GPU are able to stuff a lot more into 4

megs. Neo Geo can do something like 330-716 mega BITS with is about 41-90

megabytes.

 

Speed of load times also disappear when you go CD. Neo Geo has CD also so

no big deal there.

 

 

 

The Jaguar is several steps up in power over the Neo Geo. No contest.

You will never see the chips in the NEo Geo do anything like Area 51,

Tmpest 2k, Cybermorph, Iron soldier, BattleSphere aor any of those games

of higher quality. It does not have the processing power nor the color depth

not does it have two risc that can do ANYTHING they need to.

 

Don't make me laugh in your face for bringing up the z-80 as another chip in

the Neo Geo...it controls the sound system, and I doubt very much it can

control the rest of the system. Even if it could, it's not even close to the lowly

68k in the Jaguar.

 

Big cart sizes and a lot of good SNK titles is the ONLY advantage Neo Geo has

over Jaguar....Other wise the Jaguar is another dimension of gamin power all

together.

 

Oh...Jaguar can do Neo Geo sized cart and higher with Switch banking. The GPU

will allow much more data to fit in the same area as well because of its ability

to do compression, decompression on the fly at HIGH speeds.

 

Neo Geo is a nice machine but the Jaguar blows it to bits in power.

[A Sprite]

I get that the Jaguar is crippled vs. the Neo on ram and cart size, but I'm not convinced that knocks it out of the race. The Gameboy Advance played a decent King of Fighters and a good Metal Slug, despite much weaker hardware.

 

Neo Geo games were artifically inflated in size. No compression techniques were used - size mattered to the marketing department.

 

Add to that, the latest tricks programmers use to get more out of less, there's no reason the Jag can't handle almost anything the Neo could do - cart size limits disappear when you go to CD.

 

 

The Jaguar can do ANY Neo Geo game from cart and even in 16 bit color depths

because the compression abilities of the GPU are able to stuff a lot more into 4

megs. Neo Geo can do something like 330-716 mega BITS with is about 41-90

megabytes.

 

Speed of load times also disappear when you go CD. Neo Geo has CD also so

no big deal there.

 

 

 

The Jaguar is several steps up in power over the Neo Geo. No contest.

You will never see the chips in the NEo Geo do anything like Area 51,

Tmpest 2k, Cybermorph, Iron soldier, BattleSphere aor any of those games

of higher quality. It does not have the processing power nor the color depth

not does it have two risc that can do ANYTHING they need to.

 

Don't make me laugh in your face for bringing up the z-80 as another chip in

the Neo Geo...it controls the sound system, and I doubt very much it can

control the rest of the system. Even if it could, it's not even close to the lowly

68k in the Jaguar.

 

Big cart sizes and a lot of good SNK titles is the ONLY advantage Neo Geo has

over Jaguar....Other wise the Jaguar is another dimension of gamin power all

together.

 

Oh...Jaguar can do Neo Geo sized cart and higher with Switch banking. The GPU

will allow much more data to fit in the same area as well because of its ability

to do compression, decompression on the fly at HIGH speeds.

 

Neo Geo is a nice machine but the Jaguar blows it to bits in power.

 

Hey, don't knock the Z80 - the little guy powered the Gameboy, NES, and Megadrive - nothing to be ashamed of there.

 

But, other than that. Gorf, who said anything about the Z80? If anything, we should be comparing the Jag and the Neo-Geo as two competing 68k consoles...the Jag can do better, but rarely got the chance in it's lifetime.

 

Back to the topic on hand -

 

It's like the difference between a Porche driven by a Nascar team and an airplane driven by driver's ed students. The Porche is limited to nice smooth two dimensional enviroments, but looks good doing it. The airplane can also try to drive like a Porche, but is going to look ridiculous in the passing lane...it has two wings that aren't even being used...let's call them Tom and Jerry, just because someone might have missed the obvious brick I've thrown.

 

The Jag beats the Neo-Geo, no question.

 

Unfortunately, SNK destroys Atari.

 

The Jag is the better system.

 

The Neo has the better games.

[Gorf]

Hey, don't knock the Z80 - the little guy powered the Gameboy, NES, and Megadrive - nothing to be ashamed of there.

 

Im not knocking a processor I learned how to code on. It does not even come close to the

68k in ability....my point is, the z80 is of no consequence for power in the NEO GEO...it can

only do sound as far as I can tell...well it controls the sound chip actually.

 

But, other than that. Gorf, who said anything about the Z80? If anything, we should be comparing the Jag and the Neo-Geo as two competing 68k consoles...the Jag can do better, but rarely got the chance in it's lifetime.

 

 

No, the Jaguar should NOT be considered a 68k console. That would be saying the 68k in the Jaguar is the main CPU...there is no MAIN cpu in the Jaguar. The Jaguar is a fully RISC 64 bit monster, light years ahead of the 68k. The trouble is most developers treated it as a 68k based console and is why you have the issues with the games looking like 16 bits.

 

Back to the topic on hand -

 

It's like the difference between a Porche driven by a Nascar team and an airplane driven by driver's ed students. The Porche is limited to nice smooth two dimensional enviroments, but looks good doing it. The airplane can also try to drive like a Porche, but is going to look ridiculous in the passing lane...it has two wings that aren't even being used...let's call them Tom and Jerry, just because someone might have missed the obvious brick I've thrown.

 

The Jag beats the Neo-Geo, no question.

 

Unfortunately, SNK destroys Atari.

The Jag is the better system.

 

The Neo has the better games.

 

 

That is opinion only(yes , a more popular one granted, but opinion nonetheless.)....I

for one do NOT like many if any at all SNK games. Im an Atari/Midway/Stern/Williams

classics lover and none of the SNK games do it for me like those classics do. Not even

close. And this topic is nonspecific...it says jag vs NeoGeo AES.

[spiffyone]

I think what A Sprite was saying with the "competing 68k consoles" statement was that NEO GEO ports to Jaguar would most logically run using the 68k as the "CPU", as that is the exact same processor used as the CPU in NEO GEO. As such, it's logical to facilitate an easier porting process, and what could be easier than porting a game from one console to another when they both have processors that are similar? But Jag's 68k runs at a higher clockspeed than NEO GEO's, so this would help ports even more as well.

 

Yes, one could probably do it using just the GPU doing double duty, but why bother? Jag's got the same type of 68k as SNK's arcade system in a home console casing, and at a higher speed at that. I mean...wouldn't it be more logical to have the 68k run the game as it does in NEO GEO with TOM focused on building the display only?

[spiffyone]

Forgot the quotes around "GPU".

 

Y'know what I always found funny?

 

People keep stating that the 68k was the CPU, and yet when you open up the Jag it's Tom that's labeled as the CPU. Of course, CPU is a misnomer, as you've stated Gorf, because any of the three processors can pull that duty.

 

Those who keep thinking that Jag was some sort of bulked up 16-bitter ignore that completely.

[A Sprite]

What I meant was only that the Jaguar was treated as a 68k system by most of it's programmers, amd most of it's games are in fact, 68k based, due largely to the neglect programmers recieved from Atari. I believe Gorf was the first programmer to prove that the Jaguar could run without the 68k handicapping the rest of the system, correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

Looking over the libraries of the two systems, too many Jag games are comparable to the NEO-GEO and the Amiga, visually. We can all name the exceptions, but the fact remains, they are the exception, and not the rule.

 

Gorf does have me on one point -

 

That is opinion only(yes , a more popular one granted, but opinion nonetheless.)....I

for one do NOT like many if any at all SNK games. Im an Atari/Midway/Stern/Williams

classics lover and none of the SNK games do it for me like those classics do. Not even

close.

 

This is apples and oranges, so I prefer to compare each game type against competing games of the same type on different systems.

 

Rayman vs. Sonic vs. Mario.

 

Tempest 2k vs. Good luck finding that style anywhere else...

 

Aliens vs. Predator vs. Doom SNES and 32X.

 

All well and good. But we've left out most of the Jag's library.

 

In neutral terms of visual and audio design, player control, and how the games compare to others of their type, the NEO has the edge - aside from Jeff Minter, Michel Ancel, and Rebellion software, the Jag simply wasn't pushed while it was on store shelves. Tempest 2k, Rayman, and Aliens vs Predator were all classics, but when you add Raiden, Syndicate, Flashback, Bubsy, Zool, Bruce Lee, Double Dragon V and Cannon Fodder...

 

The Jag looks 16 bit to anyone who didn't walk into the store with a buyer's guide.

 

By contrast, the NEO's library was still successfully competing with Dreamcast and X-BOX games two generations later.

 

We know the Jag is the superior system -

 

But most of that is due to Gorf, not anything Atari did....if I'm making any sense?

[+remowilliams]

What I meant was only that the Jaguar was treated as a 68k system by most of it's programmers, amd most of it's games are in fact, 68k based, due largely to the neglect programmers recieved from Atari.

I think I see what you are trying to get at. If the Jaguar is programmed to behave as a 68000 based system, then yes the NeoGeo kicks its ass up and down in power. But remember that the NeoGeo has a customized sprite engine.

 

As soon as the Jag is programmed to allow its other processors to work (whether they are executing from Main or not) the Jaguar kicks the NeoGeo's ass in power.

[Gorf]

I think what A Sprite was saying with the "competing 68k consoles" statement was that NEO GEO ports to Jaguar would most logically run using the 68k as the "CPU", as that is the exact same processor used as the CPU in NEO GEO. As such, it's logical to facilitate an easier porting process, and what could be easier than porting a game from one console to another when they both have processors that are similar? But Jag's 68k runs at a higher clockspeed than NEO GEO's, so this would help ports even more as well.

 

Yes, one could probably do it using just the GPU doing double duty, but why bother? Jag's got the same type of 68k as SNK's arcade system in a home console casing, and at a higher speed at that. I mean...wouldn't it be more logical to have the 68k run the game as it does in NEO GEO with TOM focused on building the display only?

 

 

The point Im trying to make is that the biggest downfall of the Jaguar was

that even most of the developers believed it to be a 68k based system.

Maybe Atari should have had some talks with SNK. Ports would certainly

be a little easier but you still have to completely rewrite the GFX and SFX

hardware all over...they are not at all similar. It's not all that simple to do.

Again....if you want to do updated versions of the Neo Geo games that

blow away the old ones then you had better learn risc. You can have higher

color and resolution and higher quality sound. The DSP will crush a z80

and sound chip combo anyday.

 

Then of course you forget the things I've told you all in the past...already!!!

The Jaguar chokes when the 68k is hitting the bus. it's a friggin boot processor

and that is all it should have ever been. The 68k in the Neo Geo is the MAIN

processor.

 

You may like to think the systems area similar but the 68k is the ONLY thing that

is at all similar. The architechture of both systems are night and day.

[Gorf]

I think I see what you are trying to get at. If the Jaguar is programmed to behave as a 68000 based system, then yes the NeoGeo kicks its ass up and down in power. But remember that the NeoGeo has a customized sprite engine.

 

And is why it is limited......The Jaguar does not have sprites....it has objects

which are actual intstructions to te OPL describing what to feed the line

buffer at draw time....much more advanced than the Neo's sprites.

It can out do even the best of the sprite engines of its day and after.

 

 

As soon as the Jag is programmed to allow its other processors to work (whether they are executing from Main or not) the Jaguar kicks the NeoGeo's ass in power.

 

 

The Jaguar can pound the Neo Geo even if you do use the 68k. The Neo Geo vid chip

is no match for OPL and blitter which operate at 64 bits. You waste a ton of power but

you still outclass a Neo Geo. Rayman is a lot of 68k code. There is nothing like it on

Neo Geo in color depth which is more than anything Neo Geo can handle anyway.

 

Apply these abilities to (name your favorite Neo Geo game) and you will see the superiority

belongs to Jaguar even with the 68k in the way....and believe you me it's in the way.

 

 

 

They are two classes of machines...the Jaguar being in a much higher class...technically.

[+remowilliams]

They are two classes of machines...the Jaguar being in a much higher class...technically.

Yes, of that there is no doubt. I was just trying to put a little reference around what I think A Sprite was trying to get at.

[A Sprite]

You were close. All I'm saying is both machines were treated like 68k based hardware, not whether the NEO could compete with the Jag hardware wise. Look up at my first post in this thread, where I argue there's nothing NEO did that Jag couldn't do.

 

Where Gorf seems to miss my point, is that it's unlikely we'll see too many more games that compete with the NEO at it's best. Animators don't come cheap. Look at Frog Feast vs. Last Hope, both homebrew...with all due respect to the creator of the first (my apologies...), if you were to show screenshots of the two games to a neutral observer, and asked them to pick out the system with more colors in the pallete and a more powerful 2D engine, they're going to go with Last Hope, regardless of how it plays...

Edited September 1, 2007 by A Sprite

[Gorf]

You were close. All I'm saying is both machines were treated like 68k based hardware, not whether the NEO could compete with the Jag hardware wise. Look up at my first post in this thread, where I argue there's nothing NEO did that Jag couldn't do.

 

Where Gorf seems to miss my point, is that it's unlikely we'll see too many more games that compete with the NEO at it's best. Animators don't come cheap. Look at Frog Feast vs. Last Hope, both homebrew...with all due respect to the creator of the first (my apologies...), if you were to show screenshots of the two games to a neutral observer, and asked them to pick out the system with more colors in the pallete and a more powerful 2D engine, they're going to go with Last Hope, regardless of how it plays...

 

 

I have not missed your points and have acknowledged them. We know game titles are

one thing. Frog Feast is yet another example of the jag being completely underused.

In all fairness to cdoty, I think this is his first attempt at a Jag game...thought I not

100% sure on that. It would be very easy to make that same game look like Rayman

and better in graphical all around. My guess is his games will imrpove as he gets used

to the system....hey I did gorf Classic as mine...hardly a poly pusher if you get my drift.

 

I did do it as a tribute however, intended to be part of the trilogy like

Tempest2k but realized

 

A ) The other two modes(plus:24 bit rendered 2D and 3d:killer 3D space action) would

have been to big for the carts with all games on it.

 

B ) Because of size,fitting meant cutting back on things..we did not want that either.

 

C ) People were already being pains in the asses for us to release it. ....not suprising tho.

 

D ) It's going on two years and Gorf Classic would have needed to wait as long as it takes

us to finally finish the other two modes...Only God knows when that will be at this point...

again...have not touched any Jag stuff since January.

 

However, I count this as a blessing in disguise because, with all the rights issues I had,

all three games would have had to be canceled. The other two would have had to be

redone(like they are now) to completely avoid any issues with rights. so I m rather

good with the overall turn out except for the fact I cant get fans more copies of Gorf.

 

 

Any way as you see...even a simple looking game like gorf or frog feast, still takes a

lot of effort. Frog feast my cup of tea? No, but hats off to cdoty for the effort indeed!