31 replies to this topic

[Hornpipe2]

I started compiling the results from http://www.atariage....showtopic=75267 and http://www.atariage....showtopic=83072 as well as http://www.digitpres...pflashback2.htm into one big table. The result:

http://kennedy.greg..../fb2compat.html

Comments and corrections welcome - especially for games listed as "Conflicting Reports". I am curious if some of these are not really issues but actually replicate flawed 2600 behavior...

Edited by Hornpipe2, Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:25 AM.

[BigO]

Hornpipe2, on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:23 AM, said:

I started compiling the results from http://www.atariage....showtopic=75267 and http://www.atariage....showtopic=83072 as well as http://www.digitpres...pflashback2.htm into one big table. The result:

http://nwserver.webh.../fb2compat.html

I am still working my way through jsoper's big jpeg. I started with the center tub and have identified most everything. I would appreciate help identifying any cartridges in the green boxes: http://nwserver.webhop.org/help.png. Also I am going away for the weekend so I won't be able to get the other two tubs started until I get back, and I haven't completely parsed the digitpress site. Please be patient.

The one on the right looks like Gopher by US Games.

In the table, Dig Dug is listed as Yes, but has red background and notes on why it doesn't work.

Edited by BigO, Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:43 AM.

[Retro Rogue]

Doesn't load for me. Keeps forwarding me to http://nwserver.ath..../fb2compat.html and says "Unable to connect".

[antron]

It's up now.

Add Star Fire as working.

[jsoper]

Hornpipe2, on Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:23 PM, said:

I am still working my way through jsoper's big jpeg. I started with the center tub and have identified most everything. I would appreciate help identifying any cartridges in the green boxes:

Umm..... there's this private message thing on AtariAge. Works pretty good from what I hear.

OK, enough sarcasm. From the top left going down:
Cosmic Commuter (doesn't count, cart is non-functional in all systems, was expensive too)
Frostbite
Kung-Fu Master
Commando
3 blue label activisons, duplicates of colored labels

Imagic: fathom, atlantis, dragon fire, demon attack, firefighter, no escape, moonsweeper, laser gates, quick step, riddle of sphinx, shooting gallery, solar storm, star voyager, trick shot, cosmic ark.

Parker Brothers: Amidar, Tutankham, SW arcade, Jedi Arena, Empire Strikes Back, Death Star Battle, Popeye, Reactor, Frogger, Super Cobra, Qbert.

Gopher (on right).

They all work, unless my original post said they didn't.

Sorry for the delay, I don't check this forum to often. Lost interest in the FB2 when I found the incompatibilty issue. It was fun being the first consumer to cart-mod it though. I was home with a fever one weekend going stir crazy. By Sunday evening I felt good enough to go to Walmart and they had one FB2 left from the first shipment. Soldered up the cart slot after work Monday, still feverish and light-headed, determined to beat the other hardware geeks

[Hornpipe2]

Big thanks to jsoper for trying all the games, and especially for identifying the titles I didn't know in his picture. This list should now be complete. Again, keep those comments and corrections coming - especially for games listed as "Conflicting Reports". I am curious if some of these are not really issues but actually replicate flawed 2600 behavior...

[Hornpipe2]

Moved the list to my Google. Pages account, which is far more stable than my home webserver : )

http://kennedy.greg..../fb2compat.html

Edited by Hornpipe2, Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:26 AM.

[brojamfootball]

Jungle Hunt cart works fine on my modded FB2, although list says it doesn't--killer game by the way. My cart is a silver label picture cart with red lettering on the end label. Also, the end label has "25 3 R" stamped into it (no ink, just stamped)right above the "JU" of the title--dunno if that means anything. This is my first post, btw. Thanks to all who provide excellent info here!!

[Hornpipe2]

brojamfootball, on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:15 PM, said:

Jungle Hunt cart works fine on my modded FB2, although list says it doesn't--killer game by the way.

I pulled the info for Jungle Hunt from Digitpress: http://www.digitpres...pflashback2.htm

digitpress said:

Jungle Hunt (every time you jump on the cannibal scene, the scene resets, but the timer keeps running)

So that may help you identify where the supposed bug is. If this isn't happening to you as described, then I can update the table to "conflicting reports", it could be that the original tester had a bad cart. Also, do you know what revision your FB2 is?

EDIT: There have been a couple of games listed here that have been "fixed" - that is, someone has hacked out the illegal opcodes or adjusted the bankswitching to make games run on FB2. I think I will update the list to include download links to the ROMs where available.

Edited by Hornpipe2, Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:40 AM.

[brojamfootball]

Hornpipe2, on Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:38 AM, said:

brojamfootball, on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:15 PM, said:

Jungle Hunt cart works fine on my modded FB2, although list says it doesn't--killer game by the way.

I pulled the info for Jungle Hunt from Digitpress: http://www.digitpres...pflashback2.htm

digitpress said:

Jungle Hunt (every time you jump on the cannibal scene, the scene resets, but the timer keeps running)

So that may help you identify where the supposed bug is. If this isn't happening to you as described, then I can update the table to "conflicting reports", it could be that the original tester had a bad cart. Also, do you know what revision your FB2 is?

EDIT: There have been a couple of games listed here that have been "fixed" - that is, someone has hacked out the illegal opcodes or adjusted the bankswitching to make games run on FB2. I think I will update the list to include download links to the ROMs where available.

Sorry, you're right. Once you get to the cannibal scene, it's no good. I think my flashback is rev b--smaller board with more room for cart slot, but I'd have to open it up and do a web check to see for sure. Not hurrying to do that since I just finished the mod a couple of days ago.

I'm honestly a bit bummed about incompatibility issues--namely Jungle Hunt and Berserk, but it cost me nearly nothing and at least plays Space Invaders(and Ms Pacman). I almost did the mod just soldering space invaders guts inside with no cart slot, but went ahead and went for the gusto once I got started.

I'd love to see more detailed info about the 'fixed' games you mentioned, how I can do it, etc. Also have read tidbits about getting some games to work by getting "true 5V" to the cart, but just little tidbits of info in barely related posts...

Edited by brojamfootball, Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:19 PM.

[Hornpipe2]

brojamfootball, on Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:15 PM, said:

I'd love to see more detailed info about the 'fixed' games you mentioned, how I can do it, etc. Also have read tidbits about getting some games to work by getting "true 5V" to the cart, but just little tidbits of info in barely related posts...

What I mean by 'fixed' is: some of the ROMs for these games have been hacked for other reasons and those hacks may end up working on the FB2. If you have an EEPROM programmer and a soldering iron on hand, you could build working versions out of those ROMs. Specifically I mean Activision Decathlon (converted to F6 Bankswitching) and Activision Robot Tank (converted to F8). Check the compatibility list as I have added downloads for the two ROMs.

Someone with free time might be able to hack other broken ROMs and fix them to work, as well. Again you'd need to burn the new fixed ROM to play it. Right now I'm looking at fixing Airlock here: http://www.atariage....howtopic=139505 - by recoding the game to remove the SAX opcode, it may fix the screen rolling problem.

As far as the 5v thing: I've seen a few reports on it, notably from jsoper here: http://www94.pair.co...flashback2.html From what I remember, putting more voltage on the cart doesn't actually help anything. I suppose the 4.24v is within the acceptable range for the ROM chips.

Hope that helps. I was a little bummed to find out about the compatibility issues myself, mostly because of the SuperChip games, but since I don't actually own any games or a real 2600 this does help to limit the potential size of my collection : )

[batari]

SAX works on the FB2. I used that opcode in my minigame Zirconium and didn't have a problem. I did have a problem with SBX, however.

[Hornpipe2]

batari, on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:07 PM, said:

SAX works on the FB2. I used that opcode in my minigame Zirconium and didn't have a problem. I did have a problem with SBX, however.

Well never mind then. LOL.

[Omegamatrix]

The SAX that Batari used was a different addressing mode. I changed my post in the other thread to reflect that. I started looking at why WaterWorld doesn't work, and at this point I have just gotten the disassembly labled with most of the indirect jumps, etc... so very rough. One thing that caught my eye though is CLI is used in the clear ram routine instead of SEI.

;this is inside the 2nd bank:

LB01D:
	cli						 ; 2
	cld						 ; 2
	ldx	#$FF				 ; 2
	txs						 ; 2
	inx						 ; 2
	txa						 ; 2
.loopClear:
	sta	0,X				  ; 4
	inx						 ; 2
	bne	.loopClear		   ; 2³

Could this be causing the incompatibitly? Just a shot in the dark as far as I know the 2600 doesn't use interrupts except for the timers and BRK, but on a emulated chip who knows?

[batari]

Re: Waterworld, I see STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9 for bankswitching addresses. This will create a bus contention on any system, but the 2600 will tolerate this to an extent. The FB2 might not be so forgiving.

EDIT: Bus contention might also explain Airlock, as SAX ($02,x) could conceivably attempt to store to ROM once in a while.

EDIT2: H.E.R.O. and Blue Print both do a STA $FFF9, and are also on the "not working" list.

Edited by batari, Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:51 AM.

[Hornpipe2]

batari, on Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:22 AM, said:

Re: Waterworld, I see STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9 for bankswitching addresses. This will create a bus contention on any system, but the 2600 will tolerate this to an extent. The FB2 might not be so forgiving.

I thought STA $FFF8 / STA $FFF9 was the standard way that many F8 carts did bankswitching, and many of those do play on FB2? I'm confused...

[batari]

Hornpipe2, on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:51 PM, said:

batari, on Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:22 AM, said:

Re: Waterworld, I see STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9 for bankswitching addresses. This will create a bus contention on any system, but the 2600 will tolerate this to an extent. The FB2 might not be so forgiving.

I thought STA $FFF8 / STA $FFF9 was the standard way that many F8 carts did bankswitching, and many of those do play on FB2? I'm confused...

No, the standard is LDA $FFF8/9. Some may have used STA because it didn't change the accumulator or flags, and the bus contention didn't seem to hurt anything.

One way to check is to modify the binaries to use a harmless opcode ($0C, which is NOP Absolute) in place of the STA ($8D) and try the binaries out. I can't be bothered to do that right now though.

[Omegamatrix]

Brojamfootball said his Jungle Hunt work so it's conflicting. AFAIK there is only one NTSC rom (not counting protos or anything). I took a look and it too is using STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9. However it should be noted it does some other things that may or may not affect the FB2. I'm not sure myself.

- Jungle Hunt uses BRK to jump to a subroutine. The subroutine is in the same bank at $FD31 and called seven times. That's in the second bank (or bank 1 if you go bank 0 then bank 1).
- The first bank uses the follwing TIA mirrors:

RESP0_mirror  = $0110
GRP0_mirror   = $011B
HMOVE_mirror  = $012A
HMCLR_mirror  = $012B

I don't know if any of this will affect the FB2, but the STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9 seems to be forming a pattern here.

[brojamfootball]

Omegamatrix, on Mon Mar 2, 2009 5:06 PM, said:

Brojamfootball said his Jungle Hunt work so it's conflicting. AFAIK there is only one NTSC rom (not counting protos or anything). I took a look and it too is using STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9. However it should be noted it does some other things that may or may not affect the FB2. I'm not sure myself.

- Jungle Hunt uses BRK to jump to a subroutine. The subroutine is in the same bank at $FD31 and called seven times. That's in the second bank (or bank 1 if you go bank 0 then bank 1).
- The first bank uses the follwing TIA mirrors:

RESP0_mirror  = $0110
GRP0_mirror   = $011B
HMOVE_mirror  = $012A
HMCLR_mirror  = $012B

I don't know if any of this will affect the FB2, but the STA $FFF8 and STA $FFF9 seems to be forming a pattern here.

Sorry, Jungle Hunt actually has problems after it gets to the final scene with the natives. Hornpipe was right all along.

[Omegamatrix]

I totally missed the post you said that in before. At least that helps nail down the region it starts. Disassembly will be required to find out more, I think.


Does it start immediately after you pass the bouncing boulder stage? Specificially do you see the Dancing Native before or after it glitches?

[brojamfootball]

Omegamatrix, on Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:06 PM, said:

I totally missed the post you said that in before. At least that helps nail down the region it starts. Disassembly will be required to find out more, I think.


Does it start immediately after you pass the bouncing boulder stage? Specificially do you see the Dancing Native before or after it glitches?

You see the first dancing native, and it resets that scene every time you jump. Not resets the whole game, just as soon as you make a jump, the native scene starts over.

That's how I disputed it not working in the first place. I did my cart slot mod, and quickly popped in a few carts to test, one of them being Jungle Hunt. Then, I saw it on the "not compatible" list and made my post on this forum disputing it. Later was told about it working up to native scene and gave it a more thorough test, finding out that, in fact it has that problem.

Dang. I love that game.

My bummed-ness is equaled only by the fact that Berzerk doesn't run either--doubledang!

Hope that helps. This on a revision B Flashback 2, btw--Quadrun does have voice and is the smaller greenboard.

[Curt Vendel]

Anyone seeing any issues with controls using Star Raiders?

Specifically joystick control in the game and use of the video touch pad?


Let me know please, thanks...


Curt

brojamfootball, on Tue Mar 3, 2009 12:31 AM, said:

Omegamatrix, on Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:06 PM, said:

I totally missed the post you said that in before. At least that helps nail down the region it starts. Disassembly will be required to find out more, I think.


Does it start immediately after you pass the bouncing boulder stage? Specificially do you see the Dancing Native before or after it glitches?

You see the first dancing native, and it resets that scene every time you jump. Not resets the whole game, just as soon as you make a jump, the native scene starts over.

That's how I disputed it not working in the first place. I did my cart slot mod, and quickly popped in a few carts to test, one of them being Jungle Hunt. Then, I saw it on the "not compatible" list and made my post on this forum disputing it. Later was told about it working up to native scene and gave it a more thorough test, finding out that, in fact it has that problem.

Dang. I love that game.

My bummed-ness is equaled only by the fact that Berzerk doesn't run either--doubledang!

Hope that helps. This on a revision B Flashback 2, btw--Quadrun does have voice and is the smaller greenboard.

[batari]

I believe we now know exactly why some games do not work on the FB2. Chris (cd-w) on the Harmony team figured out that the FB2 never sets A12 to zero on the cart port. This seems to have at least two effects: any game which relies on zero-page hotspots (Tigervision 3F for example) will never switch banks on the FB2. Second, any reads or writes to TIA locations will be appear on the cart as Superchip writes ($F0xx) and will write spurious values to Superchip RAM. The lack of A12 changes will likely also affect Supercharger, FA, E7, CommaVid, and other RAM games.

What isn't clear is whether the FB2 simply never sets A12=0 or if it's unaware internally of the state of A12 during writes. I suspect that all writes to cart space (which includes hotspots such as STA $1FF8) will actually write to corresponding TIA/RIOT registers. This could explain $1FF8/$1FF9 writes to hotspots, as they may also write to RIOT timer registers and cause the game to lose sync or crash.

There could be more, but the above explains just about everything.

[Wickeycolumbus]

batari, on Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:00 PM, said:

I believe we now know exactly why some games do not work on the FB2. Chris (cd-w) on the Harmony team figured out that the FB2 never sets A12 to zero on the cart port. This seems to have at least two effects: any game which relies on zero-page hotspots (Tigervision 3F for example) will never switch banks on the FB2. Second, any reads or writes to TIA locations will be appear on the cart as Superchip writes ($F0xx) and will write spurious values to Superchip RAM. The lack of A12 changes will likely also affect Supercharger, FA, E7, CommaVid, and other RAM games.

Strange, my '3E3F' bank switching scheme seems to work fine on an FB2 and uses zero page hot spots. Are writes only affected?

[batari]

Wickeycolumbus, on Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:16 PM, said:

batari, on Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:00 PM, said:

I believe we now know exactly why some games do not work on the FB2. Chris (cd-w) on the Harmony team figured out that the FB2 never sets A12 to zero on the cart port. This seems to have at least two effects: any game which relies on zero-page hotspots (Tigervision 3F for example) will never switch banks on the FB2. Second, any reads or writes to TIA locations will be appear on the cart as Superchip writes ($F0xx) and will write spurious values to Superchip RAM. The lack of A12 changes will likely also affect Supercharger, FA, E7, CommaVid, and other RAM games.

Strange, my '3E3F' bank switching scheme seems to work fine on an FB2 and uses zero page hot spots. Are writes only affected?

That is possible. Chris could have been testing for A12 after a write and not a read. If only writes are affected, 3F and FE would still fail.

Edited by batari, Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:25 PM.