Keeping our systems alive for the long haul

[Ransom]

At what point can we expect to see wide-spread component failure in our systems, such as of the capacitors? Should we all be madly replacing components now, or is it not likely to be a problem in our lifetimes?

[RocketLawnChair]

It's really a bit of a gamble, and it also depends on the particular circuit. Some designs are better than others, resulting in more or less stress on individual components. Factor in component design flaws, environment, general circuit application / frequency of use, etc., and you have a lot of variables. In general, I'd say things like electrolytic capacitors tend to fail more often than ICs. Sorry this isn't a short answer, but honestly: There isn't one.

 

A cartridge for example could last 100 years+, or a chip could fail tomorrow. "Bit rot" exists, but you can expect cartridges to last a lonnnnnng time in most scenarios.

[mos6507]

My feeling is that the best way to go is to make replacement PCBs like the 8-bit domain one and only carry over the main ICs.

[+batari]

A cartridge for example could last 100 years+, or a chip could fail tomorrow. "Bit rot" exists, but you can expect cartridges to last a lonnnnnng time in most scenarios.

"Bit rot" happens in EPROMs and PROMs, and is not a problem with mask ROMs.

[RocketLawnChair]

A cartridge for example could last 100 years+, or a chip could fail tomorrow. "Bit rot" exists, but you can expect cartridges to last a lonnnnnng time in most scenarios.

"Bit rot" happens in EPROMs and PROMs, and is not a problem with mask ROMs.

I was just mentioning "Bit rot" in general, not really referring to mask ROMs. Many of my legit Neo Geo MVS cartridges for example, have had a windowed EPROM or two. (I always cover any EPROMs) Anyway, nothing's everlasting. Wonka's everlasting Gobstoppers are BS Lies.

[BillyTR]

A cartridge for example could last 100 years+, or a chip could fail tomorrow. "Bit rot" exists, but you can expect cartridges to last a lonnnnnng time in most scenarios.

"Bit rot" happens in EPROMs and PROMs, and is not a problem with mask ROMs.

I was just mentioning "Bit rot" in general, not really referring to mask ROMs. Many of my legit Neo Geo MVS cartridges for example, have had a windowed EPROM or two. (I always cover any EPROMs) Anyway, nothing's everlasting. Wonka's everlasting Gobstoppers are BS Lies.

 

 

Dont think classic gaming will ever go extinct now carts might become a thing of the past when the carts start dying off but with all the romdumps done for most consoles before 1995 -1978 after

the trick would be finding a good donor cart to rewrite to eprom bit rot can happen but it takes along time around 21.7 years and the rom chips can be rewritten so around year 18 or so rewrite and it can last forever as far as the console aspect always have something around be it the original or a remake. But with the huge fan base on classic gaming and consoles I bet when lets say the 2600's originals are all dead or dying someone will reverse engineer the thing for a sparking new one (could say that already happened with the flashback 2 but no cart slot so no )

[+Stephen Moss]

The only type of capacitor that would really cause problems is electrolytic because the electrolyte can "dry out" after long periods of non use which can cause them to die when used again, espically if your have a high voltage across them or are drawing a large current through them.

The electrolyte can somethines be "reformed " by trickle charging the capacitor and although a high current/voltage scenario is unlikely with consoles you may want to consider plugging you consoles in once a year and letting them run for an hour to try and prevent the capacitors from drying out.

[Ransom]

Thank you for the info, Stephen! That makes me feel a lot better. I'll make sure to regularly rotate my consoles and computers so that the ones I've been keeping in storage as backups don't let me down when I need them!

 

As my favorite poem says:

 

"How dull it is to pause, to make an end,

To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!"

[shadow460]

Huh. I left a Game Gear unused for about five years and it worked just fine the next time I hit the power.

[gdement]

The only type of capacitor that would really cause problems is electrolytic because the electrolyte can "dry out" after long periods of non use which can cause them to die when used again, espically if your have a high voltage across them or are drawing a large current through them.

The electrolyte can somethines be "reformed " by trickle charging the capacitor and although a high current/voltage scenario is unlikely with consoles you may want to consider plugging you consoles in once a year and letting them run for an hour to try and prevent the capacitors from drying out.

 

After getting a NES, I had stopped using my 7800 for a long time (~1-1.5yrs), then received a copy of Winter Games as a birthday present. I hooked it up to the TV, plugged the game in, hit the power... and nothing. Then a second later, there was a loud pop and smoke started venting out from next to the power connector. That was the death of my older model 7800. Having looked at a circuit board more recently, I now realize that the input capacitor must have blown on the old one.

 

I just checked my current 7800, and the input cap (at least on that 1990 model) is a 2200uF 16V made by "WangScap" or something like that. Never heard of them. In fact mine seems to be bulging slightly, but that might be my imagination. The diameter is pretty big, it appears to be one notch larger than 12.5mm, whatever that would be. Maybe it's 16mm. It should be easy to replace nowadays.

[ovalbugmann]

The only type of capacitor that would really cause problems is electrolytic because the electrolyte can "dry out" after long periods of non use which can cause them to die when used again, espically if your have a high voltage across them or are drawing a large current through them.

The electrolyte can somethines be "reformed " by trickle charging the capacitor and although a high current/voltage scenario is unlikely with consoles you may want to consider plugging you consoles in once a year and letting them run for an hour to try and prevent the capacitors from drying out.

 

Are there electrolytic capacitors in Atari Jaguar systems too? I have been using my original 1994 Jaguar base unit & Jaguar CD Player exclusively since 1994. However, I have some extra base units & CD units I don't use regularly, should I be rotating them into use, so these backups work when I need them? What do electrolytic capacitors look like? - anyone have a pic? What function do they perform - just holding a charge or some current for steady power delivery to other components, just like other capacitors?

 

Lastly , are they in newer consoles such as Dreamcast?

 

Thanks in advance for any answers, anyone!!

Edited April 21, 2008 by ovalbugmann

[ovalbugmann]

I just took a look at a mobo from a Jaguar base unit and the mobos from a Dreamcast and their both friggin' loaded with capacitors. They look like the 2nd photo down below in the Jaguar, but the Dreamcast has the below type and what looks like another newer type (3rd photo down & the two in the pic, on the left) -that look like a miniature petroleum/gas tank farm. (Shorter, & round)

 

From the most accurate informational website known; Wikipedia!:

 

Electrolyte

The electrolyte is usually boric acid or sodium borate in aqueous solution together with various sugars or ethylene glycol which are added to retard evaporation. Care should be taken to avoid ingestion of or eye contact with the electrolyte, and any areas of the body where skin contact has occurred should be washed in good time. It is important to follow safe working practice and to use appropriate protective equipment, notably gloves and safety glasses, when working with the electrolyte. Some very old tantalum electrolytics, often called "Wet-slug", contain the more hazardous sulfuric acid, however most of these are no longer in service due to corrosion.

 

Since the electrolytes evaporate, design life is most often rated in hours at a set temperature. For example, typically as 2000 hours at 105 degrees Celsius (which is the highest working temperature). Design life doubles for each 10 degrees lower[1], reaching 15 years at 45 degrees. Most Electrolytic capacitors are rated for 85 degrees Celsius maximum.

 

Unlike capacitors that use a bulk dielectric made from an intrinsically insulating material, the dielectric in electrolytic capacitors depends on the formation and maintenance of a microscopic metal oxide layer. Compared to bulk dielectric capacitors, this very thin dielectric allows for much more capacitance in the same unit volume, but maintaining the integrity of the dielectric usually requires the steady application of the correct polarity of direct current else the oxide layer will break down and rupture, causing the capacitor to fail. In addition, electrolytic capacitors generally use an internal wet chemistry and they will eventually fail if the water within the capacitor evaporates.

 

Aluminum electrolytic capacitor: compact but lossy, these are available in the range of <1 µF to 1 F with working voltages up to several hundred volts DC. The dielectric is a thin layer of aluminum oxide. They contain corrosive liquid and can burst if the device is connected backwards. The oxide insulating layer will tend to deteriorate in the absence of a sufficient rejuvenating voltage, and eventually the capacitor will fail if voltage is not applied. Bipolar electrolytics contain two capacitors connected in series opposition and are used for coupling AC signals. Bad frequency and temperature characteristics make them unsuited for high-frequency applications. Typical ESL values are a few nH.[1]

 

 

 

 

An incorrect electrolyte formula within a faulty capacitor causes the production of hydrogen gas, leading to bulging or deformation of the capacitor's case, and eventual venting of the electrolyte. In rare cases, faulty capacitors have even been reported to pop or explode forcefully. Although modern manufacturing techniques normally ensure they vent safely rather than explode, some manufacturers have been known to omit the key safety features that allow this

 

The most common method of identifying capacitors which have failed because of bad electrolyte is visual inspection. Such a capacitor will show one or more of these symptoms:

 

Bulging of the vent on the top of the capacitor. (The 'vent' is the impression stamped in the top of the can. The impression forms the seams of the vent. It is designed so that if the capacitor becomes pressurized it will split at the vent's seams relieving the pressure rather than making it explode.)

 

Sitting crooked on the circuit board as the bottom rubber plug is pushed out

 

Electrolyte (a crusty brown substance) leaked onto the motherboard from the base of the capacitor.

 

Venting from the top of the capacitor, visible as rust-like brown deposits, or a visible hole in the vent.

 

 

 

 

Read the rest:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

Edited April 21, 2008 by ovalbugmann

[ovalbugmann]

From:

 

http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/book_toc.htm

 

 

Idle Shelf Life and Leakage Recovery Characteristics

 

Dry electrolytic capacitors when they have been on idle shelf life for long periods of time show apparent reductions in the effectiveness of the dielectric film in that direct current leakage values increase. This effect is not, however, so marked as is the case with wet electrolytic capacitor structures.

The condition of increased leakage current values is self remedying when rated working voltages are applied to the capacitor until leakage current values are reduced to normal levels. The time required to accomplish this leakage current reduction to normal values is called the leakage recovery time. Leakage recovery time is determined to a considerable degree, by such factors as voltage rating, electrolyte conductivity and purity of anode foil.

 

Life

 

Wet electrolytic capacitors, if properly designed and carefully fabricated, will show very little change in essential characteristics when operated continuously or semi-continuously, at normal rated voltages.

 

Since all wet electrolytic capacitors are subject to some weakening or deterioration of the anodic film during idle shelf periods, it is important that the rate of such deterioration be kept as low as possible.

 

Some very interesting electrolytic capacitor info:

 

http://www.vcomp.co.uk/tech_tips/reform_caps/reform_caps.htm

 

http://sencore-mfg.com/custsup/pdf/TT170.pdf

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=b4Thv_rIN...IMy48&hl=en

 

These electrolytic capacitors are in AC-to-DC power supplies too, the ones we use for our consoles. For all the people with multiple "back-up" console systems that sit for years, you might want to consider some capacitor maintenence by reforming the capacitor's thin dielectric layer that is forms electrochemically on the capacitor's positive foil plate inside it, by simple applying power and running the console for a while. Apparently, this electochemically formed layer diffuses back into the electrolyte while sitting idle with no power, and when you start a device up after this dielectric layer has dissipated and before it can form again with some use, the capacitor delivers high voltages to other components making CPU's, etc. run hotter because of the increased voltage and the capacitor's electrolyte liquid/paste gets hotter too, increasing the chances of a fatal rupture or electrolyte evaporation thru the seals. (no seals are perfect)

Edited April 21, 2008 by ovalbugmann

[+Stephen Moss]

Are there electrolytic capacitors in Atari Jaguar systems too? I have been using my original 1994 Jaguar base unit & Jaguar CD Player exclusively since 1994. However, I have some extra base units & CD units I don't use regularly, should I be rotating them into use, so these backups work when I need them? What do electrolytic capacitors look like? - anyone have a pic? What function do they perform - just holding a charge or some current for steady power delivery to other components, just like other capacitors?

You have already answered you own question as to does the Jag have capacitors and what do they look like (at least for some types). As for there function they have many uses but without getting to techincal and in keeping with the topic I will say that Electrolytics are mosty used for power supply regulation/smoothing to keep the power supply voltage stable as current demand changes.

As for rotating your units it is really up to you, although the problems of "drying out" exists I do not think there is any way of telling how long this takes or if the capacitor will die when you power up again as there are so many variables involved such as the age of the capacitor, the size of the capacitor, time between uses, inruch current and current draw when used.

I have a 7800VCS that I don't use for years at a time and so far it has kept working, what I will say is that there are no guarentees but if it is not to much trouble rotating them every year or two should not cause any damage beyond that of normal usage and will hopefully help you avoid any potential drying out problems plus it will probably help prevent the cartridge port contacts from tarnishing as they are getting some use.

Lastly , are they in newer consoles such as Dreamcast?

All console will have capacitors but if they have any kind of internal power management they will porbably have some electrolytic capacitors in and will most likely have them if they are supplied with a cheap unregulated external power supply.

I just took a look at a mobo from a Jaguar base unit and the mobos from a Dreamcast and their both friggin' loaded with capacitors. They look like the 2nd photo down below in the Jaguar, but the Dreamcast has the below type and what looks like another newer type (3rd photo down & the two in the pic, on the left) -that look like a miniature petroleum/gas tank farm. (Shorter, & round)

The first and second images both show electrolytic capacitors, those with one leg on each side are Axial while those with both legs on the same side are Radial. Those shown in the third image are all surface mount, the two on the left are Electrolytic, the next 4 (yellowish) are tantalum but I am not sure what the others are.

[ovalbugmann]

Thanks Stephen , this is good information to know. I have always liked the hardware aspects of computers and videogame consoles, it's really interesting to me. I have several spare Jaguars & JagCDs & Dreamcasts I am storing in a closet and I have been using the same one of each type for years. I will now be rotating them into use like a spare tire on a car, so that my "back-up" hardware will be ready when I call on them for primary service. You're electrolytic capacitor maintenence suggestion is a great idea and definitely corresponds to all the information I looked up on the net. Very enlightening stuff. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

After learning about this component, I now see, on a Jaguar mobo I kept but doesn't power up, that one of it's electrolytic capacitors has indeed vented, as the top is bulging, the scoring in the aluminum top is slightly open and there is a yellowish discharge on the top. Maybe that's why it won't power up. I think I'll try replacing it and see if it has any effect. I never noticed this before because I didn't know about it.

[bones]

After learning about this component, I now see, on a Jaguar mobo I kept but doesn't power up, that one of it's electrolytic capacitors has indeed vented, as the top is bulging, the scoring in the aluminum top is slightly open and there is a yellowish discharge on the top. Maybe that's why it won't power up. I think I'll try replacing it and see if it has any effect.

Certainly worth a shot. I recently fixed a $500 monitor just out of warantee with $9 of capacitors and a bit of solder. Definitely a good feeling to bring something we love back to life!

Edited April 25, 2008 by bones

[+Stephen Moss]

I have several spare Jaguars & JagCDs & Dreamcasts I am storing in a closet and I have been using the same one of each type for years. I will now be rotating them into use like a spare tire on a car

Don't forget the power units if you have them as being regulated units the Jaguars power pack will probably have electrolytic smoothing capacitors.

[channelmaniac]

Arcade operators have been rejuvenating monitors for years by putting "cap kits" in them. They are just a bag of caps to replace most of the electrolytic caps in the monitors to make the look good again.

 

The first generation surface mount caps have been NOTORIOUS for problems. Look at all the TurboGrafx systems that have sound and video problems related to those caps... also older Sony and other camcorders that need to have all their electrolytics shotgunned to fix.

 

The SNK Neo Geo and the Capcom CPS1 systems are also systems that requires mass cap replacement. The sound subsystem works but the amplifier section is dead - the caps that fail could be any in that section so it's easier to just shotgun the whole section to keep it running for years longer.

 

Don't discount those caps!

 

If you have power supply caps flaking out in systems you'll have strange intermittant problems due to noisy power. Atari arcade games with the big blue capacitor in the bottom of the cabinet comes to mind here. Also, any arcade system that has had a cheapo switching power supply installed will need to have them checked after a few years. The caps will dry out or rupture - either from the top by splitting or from the bottom by blowing the rubber plug out.

 

RJ

[ovalbugmann]

From what I understand about Integrated Circuits such as ROM chips in cartridges and processors in base systems, is that they will last a long time if not overheated. Apparently "diffusion" of the metal pathways in various chips do not start to diffuse (just like smells in the air) or everything start melding together, thus losing the functionality of the circuits contained therein for an estimated 100 years time. Since we haven't had IC silicon based chips for 100 years yet we really don't know, though. However, I've read that the very first ones produced several decades ago are still functional.

 

I've just read this on atariguide, and unless heat is a factor or electron movement within a chip slowly heats & degrades the microscopic circuits then I can't see how using a chip kills it faster, than it sitting unused as he states:

 

What makes good games go bad?

Atari games are surprisingly resilient, but whether its chips or labels your concerned with, the usual suspects should be avoided: heat, humidity, sulfuric acid, 2-year olds, and yes, oxygen. In addition, playing a game will encourage corrosion and slowly cause the electronic pathways in the chip to decay. If you'd like them to last a long time, try using our Cart storage bags and dessicant gel packs available in the store. Although it's pretty much sacrilegious to not play your games, if you want them to last forever, store them in a dark, cool, dry place (preferably in an argon atmosphere) and never play them.

 

from: http://www.atariguide.com/help/care.htm

 

Please give me your thoughts on this as I thought gradual internal changes over time rather than failing sooner from actual chip use, caused them to fail- keeping them cool as possible. Aren't active parts of a chip sealed from the air in silicon?

 

So, Does supplying various IC chips (cart ROMs & console processors) with power shorten their life? and will chips that rarely receive power last longer?

Edited June 13, 2008 by ovalbugmann

[gdement]

A while back I ordered capacitors for an old amplifier, and while doing that I also ordered caps for my 7800 and Genesis. I finally recapped the 7800 yesterday. It might not have been necessary but after 20 years I figured it was a good idea.

 

There's a whopping 3 electrolytic capacitors on the whole board. It was easy work with a cheap 40W iron and some flux.

The cap on input from the power supply is 2200uF 16v, and there are 2 smaller 220uF caps which are presumably on the regulated 5v output. All are made by Wang'Scap, whoever that is.

These caps aren't very well marked. They only say the brand, capacitance, and voltage. No date codes, no series marking, no temperature rating. Probably just generic general purpose 85C caps though.

 

The diameter of these capacitors is pretty big by modern standards. Lead spacing on the big cap is 7.5mm, meaning the overall diameter needs to be either 16mm or 18mm to fit properly. Original was 16mm but the board is marked for an 18mm. 12.5mm caps won't fit without bending out the leads.

 

The smaller 220uF caps are 10mm (5mm lead spacing).

 

Both of the smaller caps looked like they were bulging slightly, but that might just be an illusion from the way the vent is stamped.

 

The replacements were ordered from digikey. For idealism I wanted caps designed for high endurance and a 105C temperature rating. Taking this from a motherboard mindset I also went with low-ESR caps, but that probably has no benefit here.

I ended up ordering Nichicon PW and United Chemicon LXY. Both of these are conservative, long life, semi low-ESR caps. They're the caps you'd see on a good quality Pentium-2 motherboard, and by all their history have virtually no problems.

To match diameters I had to upgrade the big cap to 2200uF 25v, and the small caps had to be 270uF instead of 220.

 

I have an ESR meter so I compared the old caps vs new in that respect. Turns out the new caps each have half the ESR of the caps they replaced (lower is better). One of the old 220uF caps had higher ESR than it's twin, which probably indicates wear.

 

 

New caps installed.

The 10mm LXY caps have an endurance of 5000hrs when subjected to maximum stress at 105C.

The 16mm PW is rated for 8000hrs under those conditions.

 

Endurance increases exponentially at lower temperatures. The rule of thumb I've heard is that endurance doubles for every 10C reduction in temperature. So if these caps run at 45C the small caps would last 320,000hrs (36.5 years), and the big one 512,000hrs (58.4yrs). So run time wear should be negligible, but shelf life is still a concern. Being reputable caps though I don't worry as much about these blowing up just because they sat too long.

 

Besides the reliability of the caps themselves, another benefit of these is they should provide cleaner power for all the ICs, putting less stress on them.

[shadow460]

Something else I believe we will see is failing systems due to ring cracks. I've repaired three VCS consoles so far that would not work because they had rings cracks in them. Two of them acted like the port was dirty all the time. The third simply would not power up or reset.

 

For what it's worth, that Game Gear I mentioned earlier is finally beginning to show signs of cap wear. The screen has light and dark vertical sections in it during certain games. I've owned it for twelve years, so I cannot complain too much.

[channelmaniac]

Those Sega Game Gear units are notorious for bad caps. I'm going to do a cap order this weekend and will be assembling main board and sound board cap kits.

[STICH666]

Well besides capacitors failing, we do have the problem with newer disc based consoles that have hundreds of moving parts. This reminds me of a topic on Gamefaqs that was titled "The 360 will never be a "retro" console". The person was saying how as consoles get more complex, the less you will see working ones in the future. I believe this is true. In my 15 years as a gamer (I'm 17), I have only seen 1 broken 2600 and only a handfull of broken 16bit consoles. Meanwhile the post 32/64 bit generation has failures left and right. I have only seen 2 working launch "Fat" PS2 units without being modified/fixed. I believe in 50 years consoles simple like the 2600 and Odyssey will be left working while much younger consoles will be left dead only fixable by people who have alot of skill with electronics.

 

Here are some examples of the older electronics simply amazing resilience to age.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0X-3CCIBjs

 

And here's the problem with newer consoles.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWow9eGzsuw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP-nH5pllfA

Edited January 29, 2009 by STICH666