44 replies to this topic

[Fort Apocalypse]

TwinChargers, on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:20 AM, said:

Please, all comments and other ideas on this are welcomed!

Some thoughts:

* Would it be possible to design a cartridge connector that could accept several different kinds of cartridges?
* Would it be possible to reuse some of the buttons and switches so they did different things depending on which console you were using, and then maybe you could have cheap LCD displays for each that you could show a different description such as "reset" for the 2600 over the switch/button depending on which console you switched to?
* Not sure how to make it look clean if you have a variety of joysticks and controllers attached. Maybe have a drawer underneath that contains the controllers?

[Fort Apocalypse]

Note: spawned another related topic to get feedback on best hardware to use for emulation and whether booting into Mess would be acceptable.

[Fort Apocalypse]

Note: I also asked on Tom's Hardware here then here.

Edited by Fort Apocalypse, Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:10 PM.

[Math You]

I guess the closest thing we'll ever get to a classic console is if Curt & Legacy Engineering make one.

I remember reading on an old thread how Atari planned on making a computer called the 'Omni' that could run all Atari's 8 bit games (except the Lynx).

It would make a great Flashback type of product, though I doubt Atari would be interested in making it. Maybe Awesome Arcades would make one?

Edited by Math You, Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:29 AM.

[TwinChargers]

Fort Apocalypse, on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:23 AM, said:

TwinChargers, on Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:20 AM, said:

Please, all comments and other ideas on this are welcomed!

Some thoughts:

* Would it be possible to design a cartridge connector that could accept several different kinds of cartridges?
* Would it be possible to reuse some of the buttons and switches so they did different things depending on which console you were using, and then maybe you could have cheap LCD displays for each that you could show a different description such as "reset" for the 2600 over the switch/button depending on which console you switched to?
* Not sure how to make it look clean if you have a variety of joysticks and controllers attached. Maybe have a drawer underneath that contains the controllers?

* As for the multiple cartridge connector, I'm not sure how that would be done. All the consoles have different size cartridges and pin connectors, so that idea might not work.
* As for the reuse of the switches, its very possible. You could have a universal reset, possibly a pause, also a select. There really isn't gonna be a lot of different switches. The 2600 heavy sixer alone could take up most of them. I see what your saying about the LCD, thats also a fine idea to keep in mind. The LCD's could light up the particular switches that will be in use when the corresponding system is powered up.
* I know what your saying about the controllers. I was thinking if there would possible be an adequate universal arcade pad of some sort to do away with all the controllers, but that seems highly unlikely. A drawer may have to suffice for the time being, but I'm still in the planning stages. I'd like to see this as compact as possible, but that might just not be possible. Its more than likely the entire reason a system like this hasn't been already made.

[Fort Apocalypse]

TwinChargers, on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:38 AM, said:

Its more than likely the entire reason a system like this hasn't been already made.

I think the reason it hasn't been made is that no one has had the balls to do it. I'm sure you'll make it work!

I'll keep looking into the emulation side of things, also. Be sure to take pictures and notes as you create your console and maybe start up a topic (link to it from this one) where you can show your progress. I'm really interested in seeing it!

[karri]

Math You, on Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:15 PM, said:

There's a Tegra video here:

http://blogs.guardia...ile_market.html

One article says that finished products which use the Tegra chip will cost between $200-$250. Would that be too much for a classic console?

Usually a "finished product" has a display, keyboard etc. I am thinking of only having the Tegra chip plus a socket for a SD card, a socket for sound/video, a socket for power input and sockets for USB ports. The cost would be rougly $20 plus the price of the Tegra chip. It may of course cost $190 right now but usually the price developement curve is very steep during the first year a new chip is out. I would not be surprised to see it drop to around $50 a year from now. If the chip costs more than a complete eeePc there is no way it can survive so the price of Tegra has to be low.

But of course when you add
- a HDMI aware LCD monitor for $500
- an USB joystick for $40
- an USB keyboard for $40
- a SD memory card for $40
- a mobile phone power adapter for $20

to get a large price tag. Or you can loan the joystick from you X-BOX, the display from the family TV, the power adapter from your phone and the SD card from your camera...

--
Karri

[Fort Apocalypse]

karri, on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:26 AM, said:

Math You, on Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:15 PM, said:

There's a Tegra video here:

http://blogs.guardia...ile_market.html

One article says that finished products which use the Tegra chip will cost between $200-$250. Would that be too much for a classic console?

Usually a "finished product" has a display, keyboard etc. I am thinking of only having the Tegra chip plus a socket for a SD card, a socket for sound/video, a socket for power input and sockets for USB ports. The cost would be rougly $20 plus the price of the Tegra chip. It may of course cost $190 right now but usually the price developement curve is very steep during the first year a new chip is out. I would not be surprised to see it drop to around $50 a year from now. If the chip costs more than a complete eeePc there is no way it can survive so the price of Tegra has to be low.

But of course when you add
- a HDMI aware LCD monitor for $500
- an USB joystick for $40
- an USB keyboard for $40
- a SD memory card for $40
- a mobile phone power adapter for $20

to get a large price tag. Or you can loan the joystick from you X-BOX, the display from the family TV, the power adapter from your phone and the SD card from your camera...

--
Karri

You can subtract the HDMI aware LCD monitor for $500 since everyone will have an HDMI-compliant TV, we hope, and the other stuff won't be nearly that much I'd think if it was a package deal. I know for a fact that you can find a USB game controller, keyboard, memory stick. and mobile phone adapter each for well under $40.

[Fort Apocalypse]

Ok, if you are looking for a small console box that has memory card input and I assume is fast enough to run emulators for a good percentage of classic games (pre-1990s) and classic computer emulators, if you can get them onto a Compact Flash card that it can boot off of, this appears to be the deal: DM&P/Icop eBox 4300 or Zonbu mini.

A less expensive option is the NohrTec Microclient Jr in quantities of 1000+ is $90 USD but as one-off's are $120.00 USD + $46.00 USD shipping to the U.S. (so $166 total) just for that and then you need the CF card (although I could find much cheaper CFs fairly easily).

[karri]

Fort Apocalypse, on Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:01 AM, said:

Ok, if you are looking for a small console box that has memory card input and I assume is fast enough to run emulators for a good percentage of classic games (pre-1990s) and classic computer emulators, if you can get them onto a Compact Flash card that it can boot off of, this appears to be the deal: DM&P/Icop eBox 4300 or Zonbu mini.

A less expensive option is the NohrTec Microclient Jr in quantities of 1000+ is $90 USD but as one-off's are $120.00 USD + $46.00 USD shipping to the U.S. (so $166 total) just for that and then you need the CF card (although I could find much cheaper CFs fairly easily).

Nice boxes. The $120 box sounds cute (but much too slow - no way to do real time video).

I am hoping to find chips that would allow me to design the electronics for around $20 in quantities. And have speed to emulate at least Atari Lynx at 100% speed without stuttering sound and glitches in the graphics. My intuition says that Tegra will be cheap and fast enough a year or two from now. Perhaps it is time to try to get engineering samples

--
Karri

[Fort Apocalypse]

karri, on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:13 PM, said:

My intuition says that Tegra will be cheap and fast enough a year or two from now. Perhaps it is time to try to get engineering samples

You should definitely do that!

The thing I'm struggling with is in trying to find something that would work today for a mini-form factor to boot off of flash memory or memory card for low cost. The two issues are how to solve the two issues of price and A/V or HDMI out (although some newer TVs are taking VGA). Most of the boxes that are cheap, aren't cheap enough (although I'd bet they are definitely in the price range for people that are interested in doing this on their own for a project). And to get A/V or HDMI out, you'd need a video card (PCI, AGP, PCI Express etc.).

The closest thing I've found so far is the this Atom MB at what was $80 in January (2008) which includes the Atom 230 CPU which was $29 if purchased alone. It supports 8 USB. I guess if you get some cheap up to 2 GB 533MHz or 667MHz DDR2 memory (found HP 512MB DDR2 PC4200 PY105AA Memory for $8.99), got a cheap flash drive (4 GB flash drive for $9.99 after mail-in rebate) (assuming it can boot off flash-I don't know if it could) and a cheap tv-out card ($4.95 for TV Wonder) and power supply for $12.00 you'd be set. Also there are some boards that have HDMI out integrated like GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H Socket AM2/ AMD 690G/ DDR2-800/ RAID/ A&V&GbE/ MATX Motherboard.

Edited by Fort Apocalypse, Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:16 AM.

[Fort Apocalypse]

Assuming that one form of the device would be booting off of a CompactFlash card (CF) or USB flash drive, what should it boot into, and what should be on the CF/Flash drive?

Thinking booting into Linux (would depend on speed of device, but maybe Puppy Linux) and to open some emulation or menuing app to open up different emulators. There are a number of different ways of doing this. Which is best?

[Fort Apocalypse]

BTW- just found this article- this guy did what I'm talking about in March 2008:
Build A 'MAME Brain' For Under $150

Same idea and everything, pretty much. Except it needs an A/V card.

Edited by Fort Apocalypse, Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:47 AM.

[Red_Queen]

About ordering the sample chips from a company on www.alibaba.com

They seem to have alot of items at low prices but on a bulk scale. They have everything from anything to anywhere.

You can probably make a request for a set of chips sent you and then send them back if they don't workout. Like a deal or propersition.

Alibaba is targeted for small businesses.

Edited by Red_Queen, Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:30 PM.

[karri]

Red_Queen, on Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:29 AM, said:

About ordering the sample chips from a company on www.alibaba.com

They seem to have alot of items at low prices but on a bulk scale. They have everything from anything to anywhere.

You can probably make a request for a set of chips sent you and then send them back if they don't workout. Like a deal or propersition.

Alibaba is targeted for small businesses.

No Tegra or any other modern components. I have better luck through normal distributor chains.

--
But thanks for the tip,

Karri

[karri]

Fort Apocalypse, on Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:12 PM, said:

The closest thing I've found so far is the this Atom MB at what was $80 in January (2008) which includes the Atom 230 CPU which was $29 if purchased alone.

The Atom board is available here as well for 60€ (actually 59.90€ including taxes)

This is so cheap already that I really see no point in waiting for anything else. The Atom runs at 1.6GHz it has Intel GMA 950 graphics controller and Realtek High Definition Audio.

A small Linux kernel booting in text mode and running the emulation without any desktop should give all the power you need for real-time emulation.

I might pick it up for making a wall mounted fanless surfing computer that I have dreamed about for some time.

I had plans to attach a 20" pivot-capable widescreen LCD on my bedroom wall mainly for email, surfing and movies. Running classic games on it also would not be a bad idea.

--
Karri

[Noelio]

I think with the way things are going an x86 emulation based system with at least a 1.5 Ghz proc is plenty. That would give you up to PS1 compatibility for certain, bringing you as far up to date as XBOX and back as far as computer space! The pico ITX spec is perfect but still too pricey (for now). The Microclient Jr looks to be exactly what the world needs but needs a faster cpu is a must. Like I said, PICO ITX at a sub $150 would be amazing for building your own console. As above, I ave to agree the Intel Atom is PERFECT in all facets. GMA 950 graphics is plenty for xbox and backward compatibility. Though the desire then would be to play PC games, too, which brings us my next paragraph lol.

What I really believe after tossing this idea around myself is that there would be a better market strictly for USB based cartridge readers with native system jacks. Basically the I/o of a chosen system in a USB breakout box. The unit would come with a licensed copy of whatever emulator. A universal box with all cart slots and controller jacks would be prohibitively costly. Ideally, when you hit the virtual power button with a cart installed, the emulator would fire up and run it with no clicks, keystrokes necessary to start the emulator in full screen mode. While stupid sounding at first, it would set the entertainment center world on fire. You could also use roms but, hey, having to blow into a 20 year old cartridge is half the fun too.

If going for the Atari computer based gaming user base the best option would be a re-release of the 1200XL but with all the desired mods preinstalled or the same in modded 1200xl laptop form. A la the legendary 1500xl laptop our madman peer has created. I think with China open for business just about anyone could fund a computer on a chip project right now. Maybe the time has come for some of us to make some bets! I can see a definite half million units being sold if the device is pal & ntsc compatible, maybe more.

Edited by Noelio, Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:33 PM.

[karri]

Noelio, on Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:29 AM, said:

What I really believe after tossing this idea around myself is that there would be a better market strictly for USB based cartridge readers with native system jacks. Basically the I/o of a chosen system in a USB breakout box. The unit would come with a licensed copy of whatever emulator. A universal box with all cart slots and controller jacks would be prohibitively costly. Ideally, when you hit the virtual power button with a cart installed, the emulator would fire up and run it with no clicks, keystrokes necessary to start the emulator in full screen mode. While stupid sounding at first, it would set the entertainment center world on fire. You could also use roms but, hey, having to blow into a 20 year old cartridge is half the fun too.

Makes sense to me. Besides there is a U3 or PortableApps technology available that allows you to do just what you described without a need to install anything on the target computer. The emulator starts by installing the device in the USB port.

I would probably hide a standard USB stick inside the design and add a USB-parallell device. When you start the emulator the parallell device dumps the cart in temporary memory and the emulation runs from main computer RAM. That is the way U3 works also. When you remove the stick the temporary directories are deleted.

From the users point of view it would work as you described.

--
Karri

[Fort Apocalypse]

Here's another option if you want something small, but it's slow:
http://www.pcpro.co....ives-at-pc-pro/

[Fort Apocalypse]

Check this out!