10 replies to this topic

[kisrael]

So, I think I could figure it out myself, but is there a guide to get starting w/ Visual bB yet?

It's a really cool effort, but it's kind of user hostile, from the unfriendly first preferences screen w/ no guidance, to having to double click to edit squares in the sprite editor, to unclear menus, etc etc. Not to sound like an ungrateful jerk... but I'm almost tempted to give up and go back to a text editor and the command line, but it seems like it might be useful, so...

[Random Terrain]

I'm slowly working on a VbB page. When I did my version of the bB page, I had original text to adapt and play with, but for VbB, there is no original text, so I'm on my own. I'm trying to hurry the best I can, though.

Although you can double click on each square in the sprite and playfield editors, you do not have to double click. Just highlight as many squares as you want and hit the space bar.

[kisrael]

Random Terrain, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:33 AM, said:

I'm slowly working on a VbB page. When I did my version of the bB page, I had original text to adapt and play with, but for VbB, there is no original text, so I'm on my own. I'm trying to hurry the best I can, though.

Although you can double click on each square in the sprite and playfield editors, you do not have to double click. Just highlight as many squares as you want and hit the space bar.

Hmm....
Are there techincal limitations here?
I wonder if it would be better to follow what 90% of Paint programs do... like a paint tool, where you can draw lines etc in one continuous motion (I know I had to work hard to get that in Javascript for PlayerPal2, http://alienbill.com...yerpalnext.html , but if you try it it feels really nice, and I think Windows should offer the same kind of mouse events) and then optionally have a "filled rectangle tool" (probably much more useful than the corresponding "outlined rect tool") that would kind of actlike the "highlight region and press space to toggle" but be more in line with other programs.

(the one thing playerpal2 did that nodded to the fact that it IS pixels toggling, and not a real paint program, is that if you clicked a square that was already on, you actually used an eraser... it sounds complicated but I think was very intuitive.)

[yuppicide]

Glad to hear you are working on a VbB page.

I must be stupid.. I've never got that editor thing to do anything for me.

[Random Terrain]

kisrael, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:38 AM, said:

Hmm....
Are there techincal limitations here?
I wonder if it would be better to follow what 90% of Paint programs do... like a paint tool, where you can draw lines etc in one continuous motion (I know I had to work hard to get that in Javascript for PlayerPal2, http://alienbill.com...yerpalnext.html , but if you try it it feels really nice, and I think Windows should offer the same kind of mouse events) and then optionally have a "filled rectangle tool" (probably much more useful than the corresponding "outlined rect tool") that would kind of actlike the "highlight region and press space to toggle" but be more in line with other programs.

I asked that question a long time ago and the answer is that it would screw up highlighting a bunch of boxes. Right now you can highlight one box, or a vertical or horizontal line of boxes or a chunk of boxes of any size and either hit the space bar to toggle them on/off or you can copy the boxes and paste them to another spot within the sprite or playfield you're working on or paste them inside of another sprite or playfield editor that you have open.

For anyone who doesn't know yet, you can copy and paste using the the usual keyboard shortcuts. To copy and paste in the sprite or playfield editor, just highlight the part you want to copy, hit Ctrl+c to copy (pay attention to where the top left highlighted square is), then click at the spot in the editor where you want to paste (the spot you select will be where the top left corner of what you copied will start) and hit Ctrl+v. You can also cut by hitting Ctrl+x.

[jwierer]

I agree setup is probably not the most user friendly. I should probably launch a wizard that asks a series of questions for the novice so they aren't confronted with a configuration screen that won't make sense at first. RT is correct that the editor was meant mostly for editing, copy/paste, & undo of small sprites. Basically there is pain when you try to do diagonal lines. I could change it so there is a select mode/edit mode, but I'd have to check how much that breaks the undo functionality.

-Jeff

Edited by jwierer, Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:32 PM.

[kisrael]

Random Terrain, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:57 PM, said:

kisrael, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:38 AM, said:

Hmm....
Are there techincal limitations here?
I wonder if it would be better to follow what 90% of Paint programs do... like a paint tool, where you can draw lines etc in one continuous motion (I know I had to work hard to get that in Javascript for PlayerPal2, http://alienbill.com...yerpalnext.html , but if you try it it feels really nice, and I think Windows should offer the same kind of mouse events) and then optionally have a "filled rectangle tool" (probably much more useful than the corresponding "outlined rect tool") that would kind of actlike the "highlight region and press space to toggle" but be more in line with other programs.

I asked that question a long time ago and the answer is that it would screw up highlighting a bunch of boxes. Right now you can highlight one box, or a vertical or horizontal line of boxes or a chunk of boxes of any size and either hit the space bar to toggle them on/off or you can copy the boxes and paste them to another spot within the sprite or playfield you're working on or paste them inside of another sprite or playfield editor that you have open.

Again, there are paint program conventions for this, change the current mode into a "selector" tool.
And there are line tools (but again, maybe no so important for tiny P/Ms)

I'd say where the editor can't follow conventions, there should be clear onscreen text explaining how it works...

Edited by kisrael, Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:17 PM.

[Random Terrain]

jwierer, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:35 PM, said:

I could change it so there is a select mode/edit mode, but I'd have to check how much that breaks the undo functionality.

My idea would be this:

• Holding down the left mouse button while moving the mouse pointer would toggle the pixels. No double clicking or hitting the space bar would be needed.
  .
  
• If you want to highlight some pixels, hold down the Shift key and then left click and drag. You could then copy and paste or hit the space bar to toggle the highlighted pixels.

[kisrael]

Random Terrain, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:05 PM, said:

jwierer, on Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:35 PM, said:

I could change it so there is a select mode/edit mode, but I'd have to check how much that breaks the undo functionality.

My idea would be this:

• Holding down the left mouse button while moving the mouse pointer would toggle the pixels. No double clicking or hitting the space bar would be needed.
  .
  
• If you want to highlight some pixels, hold down the Shift key and then left click and drag. You could then copy and paste or hit the space bar to toggle the highlighted pixels.

Yeah, that would be fit some conventions w/o having to build a whole tool pallete.
I would say some onscreen hints might be a big help.

[Random Terrain]

Before anyone gives up, I want you to know that I'm more than half finished with the unofficial VbB page. I should be done by Friday, if not sooner. The page will not be perfect, so I'll need help from VbB users to find stupid errors and to ask any questions you might have that the page may not address (so the answers can be added to the page). Prepare for my glorious ineptitude.

[Random Terrain]

My unofficial VbB page is almost finished, but jwierer is working on an update, so I'll wait a few days until he is done before I post a link. Some of the info on the VbB page is for the newest version of VbB that you can't download yet, so to avoid confusion, it's probably better to wait. I'll keep working on the page until then and if all goes well, we might have an updated version of VbB and a VbB page to go with it sometime on Monday or Tuesday.