29 replies to this topic

[shadow460]

Well, I've got my first case of DC related laser rot. Not sure if you'd call it CD rot or something else, but it's definitely the same stuff.
Years ago, I purchased a blue label copy of Hydro Thunder used from Electronics Boutique. At the time I didn't own a Dreamcast, but I figured I'd grab it up and play it later. I knew that the "good" run of discs was orange, and that the blue ones were discontinued very early in the system's life.
Being an expert at the game, I was able to quickly unlock the Catacomb track when I began playing it two years later. It hung upon loading that particular track, so I put it away again and got an orange copy a couple of months later. I finished the final two tracks on that, then went back to playing my blue copy on every track except Catacomb.

Well, today I tried loading the blue disc up on Hydro Speedway. It had graphical glitches on the main loading screen and refused to load Hydro Speedway at all. I took the blue disc outta the Dreamcast and looked. Sure enough, there's a "coffee stain" on it that spreads across most of the disc and its got a huge pinprick near the bottom. It's dead, and it's due to laser rot. Such is the fate of the early Midway Dreamcast games, with the exception of Ready to Rumble which the grapevine says had a bug.

I guess it may be time to re think how those early DC games are stored.

The only other discs I've had rot on me are American Gramaphone discs, but I backed them up to PC a long time ago.

[DarthCalvin]

Please pardon my ignorance but I have to ask. Coffee stain? Pinprick? Did I completely miss something? I've heard of bit rot before but this is news to me.

[Cafeman]

My Sonic Adventure 2 DC disc is glitchy now, with a visible effect under the plastic of the disc. I stored it in its container since day 1 -- something about the quality of the disc is inferior and it didn't last very long at all. Is this what is being referred to?

[KrazyKaiju]

What's actually happened is de-lamination of the aluminum layer from the acrylic disc. When the adhesive the disc manufacturer uses either doesn't cure properly or isn't applied uniformly, a milky spot will show up on the shiny side of the disc and gradually spread out. I've had it happen on CDs and DVDs, usually from smaller companies that get their discs from cut-rate suppliers. Hong Kong bootlegs are especially bad for this.

[Ace_1]

Could my North American Sega Rally 2 disc be suffering from disc rotting? Sometimes in the middle of loading a track, the game crashes back to the Dreamcast's main menu. Strangely enough, my Japanese copy of the game doesn't do such a thing. I didn't see any visible signs of rotting on my US Sega Rally 2 disc(never seen disc rotting in my life, come to think of it). Shadow460(or anyone else with rotten GD-ROMs), do you have a picture showing the stain that's typically on a rotten Dreamcast disc?

[Godzilla]

heck, I know many of those first dreamcast discs were bad from the factory. Took me something like 10 blue stingers to find one that worked when I picked up my launch dreamcast.

[Eltigro]

I've got a couple of music CD's that, when I hold them up to the light, I can see a small hole in the reflective layer that wasn't there before. The plastic itself is not affected, it's not a hole all the way through. Just seems to be on the layer inside.

I'd be pissed if that happened to one of my games.

[fiddlepaddle]

Eltigro, on Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:02 PM, said:

I've got a couple of music CD's that, when I hold them up to the light, I can see a small hole in the reflective layer that wasn't there before. The plastic itself is not affected, it's not a hole all the way through. Just seems to be on the layer inside.

I'd be pissed if that happened to one of my games.

I remember when CD's first came out (1982 or so), they estimated the minimum life at about ten years, but said they "should" last much longer. Now, 25 years later, mine all still seem to work OK, except maybe one or two. My disks don't get scratched or dirty, usually. I always expected optical media to be more reliable than magnetic media, but as the CDs and DVDs slowly disintegrate, that may turn out to be untrue.

If I could just keep everything on a hard disk, I could back it up every few years. At least I have all my music ripped. Movies I don't really care about that much as I only really watch any one a few times anyway. Games? Got to figure out how to get them all ripped and saved on hard disk, I guess.

Doable with Sega CD...

How about Saturn? Dreamcast? PS1? PS2? Gamecube?

[Lord Thag]

The nice thing about DC, Sega/Turbo cd etc is that all you have to do is just copy the damned disk in your cd writer. Do a new batch every year or two, and you're good to go forever. If you take the time to get the right kind of disk, you can avoid the problems with the early systems not reading the newer CDs too.

[shadow460]

I don't think a picture is going to show the damage very well. On a rotten CD, you'll be able to see pinpricks of light through the disc if you hold it up to a strong light and look through it. A good CD will still allow some light through, but it'll be uniform over the surface of the disc.

The other way to tell is that it looks like coffee has been spilled on the disc and wiped off, but has left a stain behind.

The best way to tell is that your game will have more and more trouble loading and you'll see more and more errors as you play.

[vrocko]

Wow laser rot, CD rot whatever. Never thought I'd hear about that this soon, nine years since DC came out. I figured they'd last for ever. I've got a CD from the 80's that still works well, music CD that is. I've not played Hydro Thunder lately, been playing original XBOX Gauntlet for awhile. I'll have to test it out and see if it still works. I'll have to let you know what happens. I hope it still works. Hydro Thunder, Sonic and Soul Calibur were the games I really wanted for the DC. I'd be disappointed if they up and died on me. Can anyone suggest a better way to store them so they don't get laser rot? Anyway to protect them other than leaving them in the original cases?

Rich

P.S. Hey isn't that kind of what happened to the PS3 Blu-Ray disks when it first came out or is this something different?

[Ace_1]

Hey, wait a sec. I may have had a rotten Hydro Thunder disc myself! I saw some very small spots where the disc seemed to let more light through, so the laser could have been passing through the spots. The disc never worked, though. I brought it home, put it in my Dreamcast, got to the licensing screen, then the laser started to act up, and the game would never load.

[KrazyKaiju]

vrocko, on Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:12 AM, said:

Can anyone suggest a better way to store them so they don't get laser rot? Anyway to protect them other than leaving them in the original cases?

It's not a problem caused by storage, it's a manufacturing defect that becomes apparent over time. Not all discs will suffer from it, just those manufactured with substandard materials. That said, it's impossible to tell if your discs are affected until you see the tell-tale milky spots, stains or pinholes start appearing on the shiny side of the disc.

[doctorclu]

KrazyKaiju, on Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:46 AM, said:

vrocko, on Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:12 AM, said:

Can anyone suggest a better way to store them so they don't get laser rot? Anyway to protect them other than leaving them in the original cases?

It's not a problem caused by storage, it's a manufacturing defect that becomes apparent over time. Not all discs will suffer from it, just those manufactured with substandard materials. That said, it's impossible to tell if your discs are affected until you see the tell-tale milky spots, stains or pinholes start appearing on the shiny side of the disc.

Well, thanks to those that helped make CDI files of this, we have many archives to burn new copies of the disc (on many bit torrents) and you have the original (now nonfunctional) disc as proof of original ownership.

[Video]

Bit rot in CD's does happen, it's just the info layer of the disc delaminateing from the clear protective layer that's poured (no kidding) while the nekid disc is spinning. However, it's getting progressively worse as time goes on, not necessairly because the discs were designed bad, if they used old CD lasers forever, they'd probabgly last forever, but because the newer lasers are running hotter, and hotter, the discs are becoming more and more damaged.

Don't believe me? Play a music CD, in an actual music player (CD player) and take it out when you finish, then play it in a DVD player, and take it out and feel it. It's a LOT hotter. And oh god, I hate to even think of how hot HD and Blue Ray are getting(I've got an HD, but never hooked it up, so I don't know) Untill the discs themselves are changed, you can expect higher and higher failure rates as time goes on, even on audio CD's, cause more people are using their DVD, HD, and higer players to play even audio CD's.

All, I can say, is make sure to make backup copies, even of digital media, cause it won't last forever, and chances are, you'll outlive your CD's

[shadow460]

I think the games that are most susceptible to laser rot are the ones released on launch day. Basically, if it's a launch title, you're either going to want a newer version or a backup. Newer versions have different colors on the disc itself. The instructions that go with the Midway launch titles are standard books, however, the instructions in the remakes have a green sticker on them that says "HOT NEW".

[VideoFever1982]

I've never heard of such a thing. Never had a problem with any disc no matter how old they were. I think its going to be more of how they are taken care of and stored. I did have trouble with Resident Evil Code Veronica when it came out. Went through 4 copies before getting one that would load to disc 2. But that was way back then when it came out.

Edited by VideoFever1982, Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:59 PM.

[Rik]

KrazyKaiju, on Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:27 AM, said:

What's actually happened is de-lamination of the aluminum layer from the acrylic disc. When the adhesive the disc manufacturer uses either doesn't cure properly or isn't applied uniformly, a milky spot will show up on the shiny side of the disc and gradually spread out. I've had it happen on CDs and DVDs, usually from smaller companies that get their discs from cut-rate suppliers. Hong Kong bootlegs are especially bad for this.

Aha!so thats what that is.I bought 4 DVD movies at the flea market,and 3 had that,had to return them.We,me and vendor couldnt figure out what the heck was going on.Looks like he bought a bad batch.I'll have to tell him when i go to flea market today.

[Rik]

Video, on Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:57 PM, said:

Bit rot in CD's does happen, it's just the info layer of the disc delaminateing from the clear protective layer that's poured (no kidding) while the nekid disc is spinning. However, it's getting progressively worse as time goes on, not necessairly because the discs were designed bad, if they used old CD lasers forever, they'd probabgly last forever, but because the newer lasers are running hotter, and hotter, the discs are becoming more and more damaged.

Don't believe me? Play a music CD, in an actual music player (CD player) and take it out when you finish, then play it in a DVD player, and take it out and feel it. It's a LOT hotter. And oh god, I hate to even think of how hot HD and Blue Ray are getting(I've got an HD, but never hooked it up, so I don't know) Untill the discs themselves are changed, you can expect higher and higher failure rates as time goes on, even on audio CD's, cause more people are using their DVD, HD, and higer players to play even audio CD's.

All, I can say, is make sure to make backup copies, even of digital media, cause it won't last forever, and chances are, you'll outlive your CD's

YES!!!!!!!I noticed the exact same thing.So heat is the culprit then?Heat is no good for anything,especially mechanics.

[shadow460]

VideoFever1982, on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:58 PM, said:

I've never heard of such a thing. Never had a problem with any disc no matter how old they were. I think its going to be more of how they are taken care of and stored. I did have trouble with Resident Evil Code Veronica when it came out. Went through 4 copies before getting one that would load to disc 2. But that was way back then when it came out.

That's probably a part of it. From what I've read, different storage methods can slow laser rot. I was thinking that it ain't got jack to do with storage, as I keep my optical media protected in some kind of clip in case. Then I got to thinking that most of my DC discs are used, and I have no idea how well their previous owners did or did not take care of them.

[VideoFever1982]

shadow460, on Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:16 PM, said:

VideoFever1982, on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:58 PM, said:

I've never heard of such a thing. Never had a problem with any disc no matter how old they were. I think its going to be more of how they are taken care of and stored. I did have trouble with Resident Evil Code Veronica when it came out. Went through 4 copies before getting one that would load to disc 2. But that was way back then when it came out.

That's probably a part of it. From what I've read, different storage methods can slow laser rot. I was thinking that it ain't got jack to do with storage, as I keep my optical media protected in some kind of clip in case. Then I got to thinking that most of my DC discs are used, and I have no idea how well their previous owners did or did not take care of them.

exactly. When it comes to used, who knows what went on with them previously.

[atreyu187]

I have all 792 DC games on a HDD right and have no worries. Good thing DC games were passed around like a cheaper hooker, bad thing is it killed Sega in the console market. I myself happen to play copies before I buy anything. Been led wrong to many times and losing $0-$60 at a time starts to hurt. Thank god for mod chips, and yes if I like it I buy it. If not I usually give the disc away at one time to the people at most of the torrent communities.

[Shawn Sr.]

shadow460, on Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:16 PM, said:

VideoFever1982, on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:58 PM, said:

I've never heard of such a thing. Never had a problem with any disc no matter how old they were. I think its going to be more of how they are taken care of and stored. I did have trouble with Resident Evil Code Veronica when it came out. Went through 4 copies before getting one that would load to disc 2. But that was way back then when it came out.

That's probably a part of it. From what I've read, different storage methods can slow laser rot. I was thinking that it ain't got jack to do with storage, as I keep my optical media protected in some kind of clip in case. Then I got to thinking that most of my DC discs are used, and I have no idea how well their previous owners did or did not take care of them.

It's not "Laser Rot", it's a bad press of a disc. It has nothing to do with the laser in the system.

[remowilliams]

Shawn Sr., on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:32 AM, said:

It's not "Laser Rot", it's a bad press of a disc. It has nothing to do with the laser in the system.

Yes, I wish people would stop saying that. It's either a bad press, layer delamination, or chemical destabilization.

[shadow460]

Laser rot has nothing to do with the system's laser. It refers to degradation of any disc that is read by a laser. Read some of the links in the wiki article and it'll explain that this can be caused by bad pressing, scratching, and a few other things.
These ain't CDs, so CD Rot probably ain't the proper term either. GD Rot?