Atari v Commodore

[Heaven/TQA]

If you needed to change shapes, color, and position on the same scanline, you're better off using a VBlanking method -- I believe Joust does that to show 8 sprite birds on one scanline. But as I stated, I did give the C64 the edge on sprites overall, but you are restricting Atari sprites too much. There are cases where Atari sprites work better because of their length. And if you really want to get technical about sprites being 1D, you can easily disprove that by using double line resolution and using VDELAY and PMBase together just to show there's hardware support for y-positioning.

 

just uses a sprite multiplexor and ring buffer to cycle through the sprites when more than 4 are in one scanline... but you never see more than 4 players and 4 missles per scanline per frame of course.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Heaven/TQA

[Bryan]

Wow Heaven, that's a whole lotta quotin'

 

Edit: Ah, you fixed it!

Edited December 6, 2008 by Bryan

[Allas]

allas,

 

You searched for:

Releases matching:

Released between: 1 January 2008 and 1 January 2009

 

Found: 779 matches.

 

 

779 screenshots would be a bit too much to include here

 

779 games?

 

I can't imagine where he obtain this info. Considering JOE GUNN is on of the best of 2007 and 2008, I wan't to review all these 779 games. I have in mind an amount near to 25.

[emkay]

just uses a sprite multiplexor and ring buffer to cycle through the sprites when more than 4 are in one scanline... but you never see more than 4 players and 4 missles per scanline per frame of course.

 

???

 

Ofcourse you can. But it's a little time consuming...

[Heaven/TQA]

emkay... aehm... Atariski mentioned that Joust is doing 8 sprites per line and it does not...

[emkay]

emkay... aehm... Atariski mentioned that Joust is doing 8 sprites per line and it does not...

 

I got it wrong, because you wrote "just" not "joust"

[Fröhn]

I explained it to Bryan already, but somehow my posts about clock generating seemed to be ignored by him.

I know it can be done, it just doesn't work anywhere near as well and I haven't really seen it used by PAL A8 software.

Ofcourse not, because for color artefacting the pixel clock has to be exactly twice the color clock frequency which isn't the case on PAL. On PAL it's a 8 to 5 relationship.

 

BTW, the main problem trying to do PAL artifacting is that the relationship between the pixels and color carrier is always changing. No simple pixel pattern will generate a solid color.

No the relationship is not changing at all. The phase shift of the color carrier is exactly the same on every rasterline the A8 produces.

[Artlover]

...

I also wonder why Oswald is still allowed doing insulting A8 friends and bashing the A8 without any consequences.

 

It's one of the factors why I wanted to remove all entrys I ever made in this forums and to leave this all....

...

 

I wouldn't let others' exaggerations/opinions distract me from the truth or from what I like doing.

I think you mean "I wouldn't let others' exaggerations/opinions distract me from my opinion or from what I like doing."

 

allas,

 

You searched for:

Releases matching:

Released between: 1 January 2008 and 1 January 2009

 

Found: 779 matches.

 

 

779 screenshots would be a bit too much to include here

 

779 games?

 

I can't imagine where he obtain this info. Considering JOE GUNN is on of the best of 2007 and 2008, I wan't to review all these 779 games. I have in mind an amount near to 25.

Not games, everything. Demos, Graphics, Sids, Utilities, Games.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Artlover

[Bryan]

Ofcourse not, because for color artefacting the pixel clock has to be exactly twice the color clock frequency which isn't the case on PAL. On PAL it's a 8 to 5 relationship.

Good. We're in agreement.

No the relationship is not changing at all. The phase shift of the color carrier is exactly the same on every rasterline the A8 produces.

What I meant is what you said above. You don't get the NTSC artifact colors because the pixel/color carrier relationship is different from NTSC where it's 1:1 (or 2:1). Perhaps I could have worded that better.

 

I think we both understand it.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Bryan

[Fröhn]

What I meant is what you said above. You don't get the NTSC artifact colors because the pixel/color carrier relationship is different from NTSC where it's 1:1 (or 2:1). Perhaps I could have worded that better.

Yes but that's not "asynchronous" since both clocks are synchronized to each other.

[Allas]

...

I also wonder why Oswald is still allowed doing insulting A8 friends and bashing the A8 without any consequences.

 

It's one of the factors why I wanted to remove all entrys I ever made in this forums and to leave this all....

...

 

I wouldn't let others' exaggerations/opinions distract me from the truth or from what I like doing.

I think you mean "I wouldn't let others' exaggerations/opinions distract me from my opinion or from what I like doing."

 

allas,

 

You searched for:

Releases matching:

Released between: 1 January 2008 and 1 January 2009

 

Found: 779 matches.

 

 

779 screenshots would be a bit too much to include here

 

779 games?

 

I can't imagine where he obtain this info. Considering JOE GUNN is on of the best of 2007 and 2008, I wan't to review all these 779 games. I have in mind an amount near to 25.

Not games, everything. Demos, Graphics, Sids, Utilities, Games.

 

 

mmm... It's enough with top 5 games and top 5 demos (2007-2008) for the analysis. But who will launch the list on C64?

[Bryan]

What I meant is what you said above. You don't get the NTSC artifact colors because the pixel/color carrier relationship is different from NTSC where it's 1:1 (or 2:1). Perhaps I could have worded that better.

Yes but that's not "asynchronous" since both clocks are synchronized to each other.

I realized it could be taken that way. What I meant was that the NTSC programmer assumes every two pixels are in the same phase with the color clock as the previous two pixels. On PAL, the next two pixels are in a different phase and the pattern eventually repeats. That's what I meant by a changing relationship.

[carmel_andrews]

Bryan, just to remind you...colour (color) artifacting doesn't work too well on UK or euro A8 systems...that why most euro demo's use a variant of GTIA modes

[Bryan]

Bryan, just to remind you...colour (color) artifacting doesn't work too well on UK or euro A8 systems...that why most euro demo's use a variant of GTIA modes

umm... thanks

[Shawn Jefferson]

That's where PCs have taken a hit in creativity-- by limited to API-based games and applications rather than standardizing on hardware I/O ports and letting people be more creative. I mean you could still protect some ports like disk I/O, but in general hardware should be standardized on I/O ports for maximum efficiency. And of course processors could have been made to be more exact.... more later.

 

If I understand this correctly, you think that creativity has dwindled because they don't have direct access to hardware? I don't know that that is really an issue these days. What I mean is, and people in the industry can probably back this up, the technical side of the game isn't really so much important anymore-because the hardware is so capable and you don't need to waste time writing to bare metal.

 

There are enough programmers who can create a good 3D engine, or they just purchase someone else's engine. Where creativity is really playing a role in making a good game, IMO, is game design and your artists ability to create the game world.

[potatohead]

Perhaps there is some truth to this.

 

Most PC's today have very good hardware. Pushing the envelope is actually quite difficult, and the result is a bunch of titles that all are escalating graphics engine features. In some ways, perhaps the push to do what hasn't been done has impacted creative efforts.

 

To me, the art exists where there are limits. If you remove a lot of the limits, then the art changes. This has happened in gaming.

 

There are still lots of limits and lots of art, but it's not the same kinds of things. Challenges these days surround story, interface, world sizes, and other things. Frankly, it's easier to produce a playable game, in the same way it's easier to produce a hit song. The same thing that has happened to music has happened to gaming.

 

This is one of the reasons I like retro, and or small scale computer gaming / emulation. The art I enjoy seeing is still there, because the limits are there.

 

A need to better realize the game world has driven lots of cool hardware stuff. I feel we are in a bit of a lull, because the current state of the art is really quite good, even for mediocre titles. There isn't much to hack on, and that results in less people hacking and or modding.

 

(maybe game companies will grok the importance of modding more than most of them currently do...)

 

Anyway, there are new things to be done. 3D tech is really seeing some innovation, as is sound and input devices. The Wii is just fantastic for the latter. Core hand eye challenges lie at the core of gaming. Story is another pillar, that's seeing some nice progress, and a LOT remains to be done there too.

 

These things are just not as sexy as the eye candy is. Or maybe that's just me. I think both are quite sexy, but I'm also not in the mainstream where games are concerned either. Don't know.

 

IMHO, this dynamic drives a lot of the call to return to the metal. And retro / microcontroller / emulation gaming is right there for those so driven. I know emulation is arguable, on the going to the metal part, but it does facillitate a wider audience enjoying the title, so I'm including it.

 

The current direction of gaming on PS3 and 360 is rather uninteresting to me at the moment. Online efforts have moved away from the "lets set up a server and go at it person to person mode" and that's generally bad. We still play Q3A because it's just fun with people, and there are a ton of mods keeping things fresh. Signing up online to participate in a huge game world just lacks. There is some exciting stuff going on graphically, but it's not contributing to the core enjoyment as much as it used to.

 

I can play "the last remnant" on 360, in high-def, and it's sweet. Then again, I can play FF 12 on PS2, and it's not so sweet graphically, but the story element in that game, as well as the art (and there are limits there that force the art) are more enjoyable. Building a sense of scale, for example, on PS2 is a challenge given the hardware capability. It's more of an exercise on 360, and something is lost in that. I thought I would see seriously better story innovation on the remnant title, but didn't... So that all kind of sucks, IMHO. It's a rut I think.

 

On the other hand, I've had some good experiences on Wii, and can see more to come, despite the overall power of the machine being arguably less than the other two. (could be wrong on that, and don't care really)

 

IMHO, gaming could use a good shot in the arm with some new limits. We've got great displays today. Why aren't we doing real 3D with them, for example? How come we don't use sound more? With all the room available, how come there are not better stories, or user generated content?

 

Be all that as it may, I think I see the point people are making with "back to the metal". It's more than efficiency and precision. I think it's tied to the art of it all, and there it is!

[+CharlieChaplin]

As I said, it didn't work on PAL - there was a very weak 'tinge' but no real colours. And the 8 bit wasn't designed to use artifacting for colour - it had the 160x 4 colour modes already.

I remember Threshold and Drol as games that relied on artifacting for colours ( Apple conversions ) - and the first choplifter. However Bandits was converted to A8 using 4 colour graphics ( plus some player graphics ) and looked far better.

 

 

Well,

if you do artefacting on a NTSC machine, then THIS same artefacting does not work on a PAL machine.

But generally PAL machines can do artefacting too. Page 6 / New Atari User had one or two articles (and some examples) about artefacting on PAL machines...

 

Just searched for my copies of the article: Its Page 6 / NAU Issue 52, pages 18-21, written by Joel Goodwin. The first thing printed there is an editor for creating artefacting on PAL machines. You get four additional colours, which are (according to the article) yellow, violet, red and green. The end of the article also promises a game for issue 53 "Coming next issue... Runaround - a game writing with artefacting", not sure if it was printed though, since I do not have issue 53.

 

So, once more, artefacting is technically possible on both TV systems, but alas:

- artefacting done on NTSC machines will only work on NTSC TV`s (and tv`s that can do both PAL and NTSC)

- artefacting done on PAL machines will only work on PAL tv`s (or tv`s that can do both NTSC and PAL)

But still its a "trick" that does not work on every tv or monitor - thats why I also prefer the 160 pixel, 4 colour gfx mode on the A8 instead of the 320 pixel mode with b&w and artefacting... -Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: Attached copies of Page 6 / NAU issue 52 and 53 disks (hopefully the mentioned programs are there, as I did not take a look into the ATR images)...

 

PPS.: think there were also the programs AE, David`s Midnight Magic, Pinball Construction Set and Lode Runner that used artefacting on the A8 (and of course dozens of pinballs that were created with the original PCS)...

[+CharlieChaplin]

Artifacting = Chroma Distortion (C-64 terminology).

 

Can happen with singlular width pixels/lines on both machines. It's described in the C-64 Tech manual as well as many Atari ones.

 

Author a DVD with a black background then put up a picture with similar sized lines - you'll be able to generate it there too I'd suspect.

 

Has absolutely nothing to do with the computer - it's a weakness of the way the TV standards work.

 

Is there a picture showing difference in artifacting between PAL/NTSC (same picture)?

 

I would love to see this also. Have been curious about it for years.

 

 

Well,

it is post 1290 showing Ultima - the left picture shows how the gamescreen looks on NTSC, the right picture shows how it looks on PAL tv`s (that are PAL only and cannot do/show NTSC). Luckily my Funai and Toshiba tv`s can do both PAL and NTSC, so they automatically switch to the left -colorfull and artefacting- picture, which my older tv`s did not, they only showed the b&w picture...

 

Or were you asking for an artefacting NTSC screen and/vs. an artefacting PAL screen ?!?

-Andreas Koch.

[potatohead]

The latter please. I don't think I've ever seen it.

 

Lots of good info on this thread.

I've seen the luma only NTSC on PAL display. That's just the difference in the chroma carrier frequency. What I've not seen is actual examples of PAL artifacting. What do the colors look like?

 

We know something about the pixel patterns now, and that's cool. I like the suggestion of exploring the C64 and this technique. Might lead to something interesting too.

 

Re: A8 not built for artifacting. I don't know that I agree. The C64 clearly was designed this way. The color cells in 320 mode work well for how it's color is generated. The A8 has a fixed color clock, and it's perfectly aligned with the NTSC non-interlaced chroma. Artifact really doesn't get better than that, unless you've got more pixels to artifact with!

Edited December 7, 2008 by potatohead

[potatohead]

Well, I was gonna edit to add this, but something goofy is going on!

 

On Atari 8 bit NTSC, it's possible to get red, green, yellow and a pink type color, using some of the pixel patterns other than just 1010 or 0101. When looking at Apple ][ graphics, I noted they used 01011, and 01101. The result is a fatter pixel, with a different color. Just FYI.

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well, I was gonna edit to add this, but something goofy is going on!

 

On Atari 8 bit NTSC, it's possible to get red, green, yellow and a pink type color, using some of the pixel patterns other than just 1010 or 0101. When looking at Apple ][ graphics, I noted they used 01011, and 01101. The result is a fatter pixel, with a different color. Just FYI.

 

hmm,

maybe we should open another thread/topic for this, called "artifacting on the a8" or something like that... ?!?

-Andreas Koch.

[potatohead]

Yep. Good call. I'll focus from here on out. You know how these things sometimes go.

 

It is somewhat on topic as the details surrounding artifacting is relevant where C64 -vs- Atari goes. On that note, are there artifacting screenies from games on C64, not just still pictures?

[Allas]

14 - GALAXIAN

 

Atari screenshots

 

The screens say all. Atari have a great playability in this game.

 

C64 screenshots

[peteym5]

Wow, we are over 54 pages and 1300 posts of this battle already. With the whole sprite thing, it is possible to simulate more than 4 players with a multiplexer with alternating between frames and with DLIs. I have tested a routine got over 20 sprites, only time there was a problem was when they congregated on a single line. The A8 has almost double the clock speed of the C64, so even if the multiplexer consumes CPU time, a ML game can still do many things. Yes, you can say the A8s can get around limits with DLIs and other interrupts. Aren't there raster interrupt techniques with the C64 to get more sprites on its screen? I maintain it comes down to the programmers knowledge of each machine over the machine itself to get around certain limitation.

[Oswald]

allas,

 

You searched for:

Releases matching:

Released between: 1 January 2008 and 1 January 2009

 

Found: 779 matches.

 

 

779 screenshots would be a bit too much to include here

 

779 games?

 

779 everything. how much anything for the a8 was released this year? remember we're doing this comparison because some1 claimed the c64 is dying, because it has hardly releases. well its not