Atari v Commodore

[Crazyace]

I'm using software sprites - mainly because I dont want any flickering , There are 4 ghosts each each 14 pixels wide with 3 colours , and Pacman which is 13 pixels monocolour - too wide for normal h/w sprites, but ok for soft sprites with h/w underlays. Multiplexed h/w sprites are quicker - and better in a lot of cases, but they wont solve the problem of 5 wide sprites on the same line. ( Even on the C64 you would need 8 sprites just for the ghosts )

 

Doing Pacman with software sprites, sounds a little complicated. Sounds like you are using 320x192 mode. Why would you need 8 sprites for the ghosts on a C64. It does have multicolor mode, so you can use 4 with the white&blue eyes. I am wondering if its possible to do the Ms. Pac Man technique with putting a quad width missiles behind the players for the white eyes.

 

Tempest Extreme uses a multiplexer routine the divides the screen into 8 zones and the DLIs set the color, position, and width for each section. When a sprite is between sections, it sets both zones to common values. It cycles through witch sprite it starts with on each frame, so if more than 4 sprites are required in a zone, different ones "sit out" each time. So if 5 sprites are in a zone, only 1 is cycled out. Don't thing blinking becomes noticeable until it gets to 7 or 8. In Tempest Extreme, that mostly happens when you have a bunch of flippers on top of you and you're caught at that point.

 

I had some theories of how do something like this with other hardware like the C64, 7800, NES, etc. Issue with the C64, is lower CPU speed and 3 sound voices. Be hard to make something as intense.

 

Needing 8 sprites is purely because of the width - the ghosts are 14 pixels wide, and pacman 13 pixels - which is bigger than the multicolour width supported by the C64. A monochrome sprite for the ghost body, plus a multicolour sprite for the eyes. ( I'm not actually that interested in coding it for the C64 - it was more a technical exercise to see what I could reproduce on the A8 )

If I had artistic ability I might resize the maze and ghosts - and a sprite multiplex on the a8 would work. But I dont want any flickering at all so I'm using s/w with underlays.

 

The hardest thing about combined player/playfield sprites is the priorities when then pass over each other. If all the missiles are one color then they're also one priority. They won't intersect with playfield portions of the sprite properly unless they are manually cropped which takes extra time and effort.

 

The underlays are dual width players which have a coarse outline. I'm not using the missiles at all at the moment though... ( I did work out that if I reduced the map size the sprites would be 10 pixels wide, and then the underlays would match perfectly - but I'd probally switch to a different technique where only the eyes were s/w sprites )

Also Pacman's quite a simple game

[FastRobPlus]

I wonder why nearly all atarians had c64/128, but almost no 64er has a8 ?

 

Wow, interesting "fact" you pulled out there.

[Bryan]

The drive itself wasn't slow, and since everybody who owned a C64 also owned a multi function cart like FC3, AR etc that was a no issue. With those carts, the 1541 was much much faster than anything connected to the SIO bus.

 

What was the maximum transfer rate? Was it faster than the 57Kbps used by some 1050 upgrades?

[Artlover]

And the "drive alignment" problems of the C64 are a myth. In 22++ years of C64 I encountered exactly 1 misaligned drive.

I've heard of the problem, but like you, I only personally had it once. The very first style with the push down latch suposidly was more prone to it then the later ones with the thumb knob. Tho all mine were the push down latch type, so.... Yeah, I'd agree with myth that it was as bad as everyone claims.

 

Whenever I encountered somebody with a "misaligned drive" it was just the drive RW head moved to track 36++ which the 1541 DOS cannot handle. Simply enter OPEN 15,8,15,"I":CLOSE 15 to move head back to a valid track and the problem is solved.

Tho all I ever had to do was power cycle it in those cases. Not sure why you had to specificly run the command.

 

since everybody who owned a C64 also owned a multi function cart like FC3, AR etc that was a no issue.

I didn't.

 

Actually, I got a fast load card like 10 years later and never used it.

 

Pretty much biassed. A8 and C64 are both cheap ass computers (otherwise no parent would have bought it for kids). To say the C64 was cheap implies the A8 wasn't, but in fact: BOTH are cheap crap for consumer market.

I get the feeling a lot of the A8'ers are basing their claims on the 800XL and the like. I think they forget how the A8's actually started.

 

 

Sorry, but the C64 is a little prettier and ergonomic then those. Also came with a real keyboard from the start. Even the Vic-20 did. C='ers didn't have to wait for revisions.

 

Just like with any system. Piracy is not a C64 phenomenon, it's what people do no matter what system they own.

I own even less legimiate software for my Atari then My C64. (Actually, I'll have to check on that, I'm not sure I have any for the Atari.)

[emkay]

The drive itself wasn't slow, and since everybody who owned a C64 also owned a multi function cart like FC3, AR etc that was a no issue. With those carts, the 1541 was much much faster than anything connected to the SIO bus.

 

What was the maximum transfer rate? Was it faster than the 57Kbps used by some 1050 upgrades?

 

I remember when buying the Speedy1050 they said that the restriction of 57Kbit/s has something to do with the drive itself. It is faster than the drive is rotating and loading the Data into the Speedy RAM.

They planned some burst mode, capable of 120Kbit/s but they left business before finishing it (the whole Compy Shop was down).

[FastRobPlus]

I think they forget how the A8's actually started.

 

 

Sorry, but the C64 is a little prettier and ergonomic then those. Also came with a real keyboard from the start. Even the Vic-20 did. C='ers didn't have to wait for revisions.

 

Just like with any system. Piracy is not a C64 phenomenon, it's what people do no matter what system they own.

I own even less legimiate software for my Atari then My C64. (Actually, I'll have to check on that, I'm not sure I have any for the Atari.)

 

Agree about the piracy bit.

 

But you'd have to be pretty drunk to think that the C64 is anywhere near as cool-looking as an Atari 800. The C64 looks like what happens when you use the least possible amount of plastic to house your keyboard. The Atari 800 looks like what you get when you are in the 1970s and are asked to design a mod looking computer terminal.

Oddly enough, the C64 actually ended up getting the last laugh... It (and the Vic-20) were among the first in a long line of cheap plastic electronic devices designed with the lowest possible cost as the #1 aesthetic. The good news is the world (due in some large part to Apple) has finally shaken this off and we see consumer electronics gaining some build quality, design aesthetic, and material quality like we saw in older systems like the Atari 800. As I type this on my magnesium alloy thinkpad with reinforced keyboard and nickel accents I shudder to remember my last laptop - a Toshiba with creaking hinges, mushy keyboard that twists when you type, etc.; I'm glad the world is finally away from the nightmare that started with the C64. And don't get me started about Jack's Atari XE series...

*edit* replaced your blurry yellowed Atari on a carpet pic from some random guy's site with an image from Oldcomputers.net

Edited December 7, 2008 by FastRobPlus

[emkay]

 

Sorry, but the C64 is a little prettier and ergonomic then those. Also came with a real keyboard from the start. Even the Vic-20 did. C='ers didn't have to wait for revisions.

 

 

???? Where's the claim here for your argue?

 

The 400 was the "cheap" Model and the "800" has a "correct" keyboard, built "years before...

The Vic20 and the first revision of the C64 were all but "handy".

[ApolloBoy]

 

Sorry, but the C64 is a little prettier and ergonomic then those. Also came with a real keyboard from the start. Even the Vic-20 did. C='ers didn't have to wait for revisions.

 

 

???? Where's the claim here for your argue?

 

The 400 was the "cheap" Model and the "800" has a "correct" keyboard, built "years before...

The Vic20 and the first revision of the C64 were all but "handy".

 

In addition, I find the keyboard of the 800 more ergonomic than the C64, and this coming from someone who owns both computers.

[Allas]

17 - COMMANDO

 

Atari screenshots

 

This is one of the most fun games that I played on 85's with my C64, it's no coincidence it was the game of the year. The C64 control are very responsive, the motion very fast, and the background music incredible. I played a lot of times this game on a C64 but take me many years later to try on the real arcade.

 

After many years, the Commando version of Atari came, and I found is not as responsive that his c64 counterpart. Intead of that, I found a complete game ported from the arcade with the details that the C64 forgot in own version.

 

Still now, i can't understand why the c64 version are poorly programmed at details level. There aren't intermediate screens, no initial helicopter, and the worse of all, only 3 levels (instead the 6 of original game), no map color. Maybe someone can explain why nobody create a complete c64 commando version.

 

I enjoyed to play on C64, but it seems too easy and short. Comparing to the original arcade, I should choice the Atari version (even I had found secret chambers in his levels). However, both version are good but different.

 

C64 screenshots

[Fröhn]

What was the maximum transfer rate? Was it faster than the 57Kbps used by some 1050 upgrades?

10 kB/s including reading of sectors. Bus transfer rate is much higher, up to 50 kB/s for good routines.

 

Tho all I ever had to do was power cycle it in those cases. Not sure why you had to specificly run the command.

1541-II didn\'t bump head on everything anymore, so you had to do it by hand.

 

Actually, I got a fast load card like 10 years later and never used it.

Those are no \"fast load carts\". They have lot\'s of features, fastloading being one of them. Another quite important feature was the inbuilt ML monitor.

 

I get the feeling a lot of the A8\'ers are basing their claims on the 800XL and the like. I think they forget how the A8\'s actually started.

Most claims of A8 people are based on spec comparisions: 1.77 mhz > 0.98 mhz, 4 sound channels > 3 sound channels, 128 colors > 16 colors. That\'s why this myth \"A8 was dropped by companies, otherwise it\'s simply better\" exists.

 

Just like with any system. Piracy is not a C64 phenomenon, it\'s what people do no matter what system they own.

I own even less legimiate software for my Atari then My C64. (Actually, I\'ll have to check on that, I\'m not sure I have any for the Atari.)

In this area everybody wanted C64 because everybody had games for C64. There was one guy with A8 but it was kinda sad, he wanted a C64 badly but was stucked with A8 and three original games while the rest of us had hundreds of better games. But even though we had lots of non original games, every one of us still owned more original games than this Atari guy.

 

But you\'d have to be pretty drunk to think that the C64 is anywhere near as cool-looking as an Atari 800.

The only A8 which actually looks better than the breadbox is the XL range. And you forget the C128 range, which is a C64 platform too.

 

The good news is the world (due in some large part to Apple) has finally shaken this off and we see consumer electronics gaining some build quality, design aesthetic, and material quality like we saw in older systems like the Atari 800.

There was no \"aesthetics\" in the 70s designs. And todays \"quality design etc\" aint worth shit. I really dislike this gay design crap.

 

I\'m glad the world is finally away from the nightmare that started with the C64.

Atleast the C64 got lots of people into ML coding, something which never could happen to you.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Fröhn

[emkay]

Still now, i can't understand why the c64 version are poorly programmed at details level. There aren't intermediate screens, no initial helicopter, and the worse of all, only 3 levels (instead the 6 of original game), no map color. Maybe someone can explain why nobody create a complete c64 commando version.

 

Levels have to be loaded from disk. Would you want to wait 20 minutes for loading a single level? I could bet that they made it smaller to save loading time. And perhaps they spent a lot of money for the soundtrack. The C64 one's beats the Arcade by far.

[FastRobPlus]

But you\'d have to be pretty drunk to think that the C64 is anywhere near as cool-looking as an Atari 800.

The only A8 which actually looks better than the breadbox is the XL range. And you forget the C128 range, which is a C64 platform too.

 

I was just browsing the C64 on Oldcomputers.... Didn't realize how much it blatantly ripped from the Atari 800. But what a cheap job! It's got a lil' light bulb marked "power" how lame!

 

The good news is the world (due in some large part to Apple) has finally shaken this off and we see consumer electronics gaining some build quality, design aesthetic, and material quality like we saw in older systems like the Atari 800.

There was no \"aesthetics\" in the 70s designs. And todays \"quality design etc\" aint worth shit. I really dislike this gay design crap.

Ah, the swearing comes out. Hit a nerve eh? Maybe you could gut an Atari 800 (especially good if you hate them!) and put a C64 inside? Maybe you could cross out "Atari" and write Commodore?

 

I\'m glad the world is finally away from the nightmare that started with the C64.

Atleast the C64 got lots of people into ML coding, something which never could happen to you.

 

Oh right... I forgot the Atari 800 didn't have machine language.

[Fröhn]

I was just browsing the C64 on Oldcomputers.... Didn't realize how much it blatantly ripped from the Atari 800. But what a cheap job! It's got a lil' light bulb marked "power" how lame!

And ofcourse Atari never ripped anybody off. Bushnel hooray. Also I consider the C64/VIC20 design more a follow up to PET than A800.

 

Ah, the swearing comes out. Hit a nerve eh? Maybe you could gut an Atari 800 (especially good if you hate them!) and put a C64 inside? Maybe you could cross out "Atari" and write Commodore?

If you prefer looking at the machine instead of the screen it also tells something.

 

Oh right... I forgot the Atari 800 didn't have machine language.

It certainly didn't have the same amount of people doing ML, only people like you who can't do shit. Btw guys like you already scared of lots of productive people who were pissed off by Atari scene before they even started.

[Artlover]

In addition, I find the keyboard of the 800 more ergonomic than the C64, and this coming from someone who owns both computers.

Just more proof it's personally subjective, isn't it.

 

I also own an 800, 800XL and old style C64. I'd much rather use the C64 compared to an 800 (especially if there were joysticks plugged in).

 

I'll admit the 800XL was more egonomic, tho I didn't care for the feel of the keyboard (or the fact that it used that mylar film contact crap {mine does anways}).

[Wrathchild]

I was wondering if the SSI 'Forgotten Realms' AD&D licensed games would have translated well had they chose to do them for the A8 around that time? Different coloured hi-rez text (on a black background) seems to be a bane of the A8.

[FastRobPlus]

I was just browsing the C64 on Oldcomputers.... Didn't realize how much it blatantly ripped from the Atari 800. But what a cheap job! It's got a lil' light bulb marked "power" how lame!

And ofcourse Atari never ripped anybody off. Bushnel hooray. Also I consider the C64/VIC20 design more a follow up to PET than A800.

 

Ah, the swearing comes out. Hit a nerve eh? Maybe you could gut an Atari 800 (especially good if you hate them!) and put a C64 inside? Maybe you could cross out "Atari" and write Commodore?

If you prefer looking at the machine instead of the screen it also tells something.

 

Oh right... I forgot the Atari 800 didn't have machine language.

It certainly didn't have the same amount of people doing ML, only people like you who can't do shit. Btw guys like you already scared of lots of productive people who were pissed off by Atari scene before they even started.

 

 

I've totally lost you. Judging from the swearing I'm guessing you are attempting insults in a foreign language and failing. I hope you're better with machine language than you apparently are with English.

[Fröhn]

I've totally lost you. Judging from the swearing I'm guessing you are attempting insults in a foreign language and failing. I hope you're better with machine language than you apparently are with English.

Yes. Unlike you who is good at swearing but nothing else.

[FastRobPlus]

I've totally lost you. Judging from the swearing I'm guessing you are attempting insults in a foreign language and failing. I hope you're better with machine language than you apparently are with English.

Yes. Unlike you who is good at swearing but nothing else.

 

[CITATION NEEDED]

(or get back on topic)

[Crazyace]

The programmers reference guide was really cool for the C64 ( and the older Vic20 one ) but one problem with the C64 vs the A8 was the support in Basic for graphics and sound. Commodore really skimped by supplying pretty much the same basic they had with the original PET.. ( I read that they had some special deal which saved royalties )

De Re Atari and Mapping the Atari were good references for the A8, but they took a while to come out.

[FastRobPlus]

I was wondering if the SSI 'Forgotten Realms' AD&D licensed games would have translated well had they chose to do them for the A8 around that time? Different coloured hi-rez text (on a black background) seems to be a bane of the A8.

 

Was the gold box engine completely new? Or was it modified from an earlier SSI fantasy game? I know the early gold box games came out for the Apple, so I suspect leaving Atari was a decision based on the US market at the time.

[+MrFish]

And perhaps they spent a lot of money for the soundtrack. The C64 one's beats the Arcade by far.

 

Bah! The arcade version is better. c64 tune is good, but the chosen instruments sound too harsh. Also, music leaves game without sound effects (limited). What good is a shoot-'em-up without sound effects??

 

See 7800 Commando for a good pokey version, and best version of the game out of the three systems.

Edited December 7, 2008 by MrFish

[Artlover]

I've got one word:

 

ZAXXON

 

No amount of Atari bias in the world can make that better then the C64 version.

[+MrFish]

I've got one word:

 

ZAXXON

 

No amount of Atari bias in the world can make that better then the C64 version.

 

Pink and yellow spaceships are for fairies...

[Artlover]

I've got one word:

 

ZAXXON

 

No amount of Atari bias in the world can make that better then the C64 version.

 

Pink and yellow spaceships are for fairies...

You might want to check what colors the spaceships are in the Arcade version.

[+MrFish]

I've got one word:

 

ZAXXON

 

No amount of Atari bias in the world can make that better then the C64 version.

 

Pink and yellow spaceships are for fairies...

You might want to check what colors the spaceships are in the Arcade version.

 

I already knew that. Doesn't change my opinion.