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What games showed Jag's power effectively?


Ite

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. Also tell me what stopped Native for Jag....wasnt it Memory? ...I WANNA KNOW! I need too!

Its a shame that nobody took advantage of this on Jag.....then or now....Im up for it...get me a team...I wanna animate the shit out of the Jag and make a freaking game to put the Neo Geo to shame....Also I would like to know how big of a sprite could I make on the Jaguar, for like a end boss, or even a main character without the jaggy scaling effect..I want it to look sweet..I wanna really do this...

 

Native was stopped because it was a Jag Server game (underground - so no official tools, no alpine, no cart, no CD) ALL code had to be loaded up in one go to ram so thats everything, in 2MB - it's just not enough ram... on a bank switched cart there'd be AMPLE room, but Duranik are no longer interested in the project and nobody who's taken it on later has really done much with it.

 

How big a sprite? How big do you want it? It can be many times the screen size, just so long as it fits in the 2MB ram.

Umm actually if its being blitted i seem to remember a 65536 pixel limit for a single copy blit (but of course it could be copied in multiple blits). If its displayed by the OP rather than blitted, then it can be even bigger but there will be a speed hit if its pulled down from ROM space, bank switched or not.

 

Its just a question of managing the OP List and blitter combination to give you the best throughput, but since a single unscaled sprite can be blitted in a single operation in phrase mode, it's extremely fast.

Edited by Atari_Owl
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What company were you a registered developer with back then? Also, what kind of game do you plan on making for the Jag? :)

 

I was developing a custom database program on the ST for a private company. We probably had some of the first ST's and those huge 10 Mb hard drives. I learned to program in C and GEM. I still have my Mark Williams C for the ST. Later on, I dabbled in assembler.

 

So, with the Jag, my goal is to dive into assembler more and write something that graphically stands out. I've got a few ideas but We'll see how it goes. Gotta get the dev kit working first.

 

Cool, I wish you luck in your efforts. :) It's always great to hear about a new dev giving the Jag a shot. ;)

 

As for the Jag vs. Neo 2d battle. Everyone is forgetting the best example of the Jag's 2d sprite pushing ability... The Virtual Light Machine in the Jag CD!

Edited by kevincal
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Even with all its nice specs needed a 1-4Meg Ram cart to run some Neo Games well, not perfect....some animation frames still removed, And some larger sprites were cut down abit.

 

The Jaguar will outperform the Neo geo in every way and Yes in it's sleep.

 

Rayman in 4096 is absolutely NOT = to rayman even in 16 bit color, not even close.

 

If you think so, you are either color blind or close to blind. Im partially color

blind and I can definitely see the deatiled color differences.

Rayman is hardly working the Jag.

 

The sprites on the Neo are limited. 16 pixels across and 512 high.

To get many of those BIG characters on those Neo Geo games,

you are eating up several sprites for ONE object on screen.

 

No back drop layers. That means even the background needs to eat up

many of those sprites. 320 pixels / 16 pixel sprite requires 20 sprites

per back ground on the Neo.

 

 

Jag just needs one and can have many for paralax that would eat the

Neo Geo alive.

 

The Jaguar OPL can display 4096 x 4096 SINGLE objects. You dont stand a chance.

Neo is a 12 mhz 68k which works out to about 5-7 MIPS.

 

The Jaguar GPU alone can do 18 MIPS. Then DSP as well can achive the same.

 

You dont even need the 68k but the Jaguar with the OPL and Blitter and 68k ONLY

would bitch slap the Neo Geo.

 

The trouble is no one ever bothered. Figthers were not the most popular genre

on the Jaguar.

 

You would never see Neo pull off Ultra Vortek simply because you'd never match the back drop

or even the main charateres in quality...not even close.

 

Put the Neo developers on the Jaguar and you will see just how incorrect your assesments are.

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That's exactly right. The problem was not with the Jaguars technical specs (well, a small part). It was the lack of knowledge to leverage the strengths of the Jag. It was Atari pushing developers to expedite the process just to get new titles out. This is all very well documented elsewhere on the net. That was the Jags demise. When the "polished" Playstation games came out, the launch games were top notch.

 

Anyway, not wanting to bore anyone with repetitive comments. The Jaguar truly was the better "hardware" before the PS1.

Edited by Morpheus23
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Even with all its nice specs needed a 1-4Meg Ram cart to run some Neo Games well, not perfect....some animation frames still removed, And some larger sprites were cut down abit.

 

The Jaguar will outperform the Neo geo in every way and Yes in it's sleep.

 

Rayman in 4096 is absolutely NOT = to rayman even in 16 bit color, not even close.

 

If you think so, you are either color blind or close to blind. Im partially color

blind and I can definitely see the deatiled color differences.

Rayman is hardly working the Jag.

 

The sprites on the Neo are limited. 16 pixels across and 512 high.

To get many of those BIG characters on those Neo Geo games,

you are eating up several sprites for ONE object on screen.

 

No back drop layers. That means even the background needs to eat up

many of those sprites. 320 pixels / 16 pixel sprite requires 20 sprites

per back ground on the Neo.

 

 

Jag just needs one and can have many for paralax that would eat the

Neo Geo alive.

 

The Jaguar OPL can display 4096 x 4096 SINGLE objects. You dont stand a chance.

Neo is a 12 mhz 68k which works out to about 5-7 MIPS.

 

The Jaguar GPU alone can do 18 MIPS. Then DSP as well can achive the same.

 

You dont even need the 68k but the Jaguar with the OPL and Blitter and 68k ONLY

would bitch slap the Neo Geo.

 

The trouble is no one ever bothered. Figthers were not the most popular genre

on the Jaguar.

 

You would never see Neo pull off Ultra Vortek simply because you'd never match the back drop

or even the main charateres in quality...not even close.

 

Put the Neo developers on the Jaguar and you will see just how incorrect your assesments are.

 

Im pretty Blind....I guess...:P And I know I can sure make alittle color go a damn far way....Maybe its just from my old Amiga animation/programing years...dunno but I know how to make 32 or 64 or 4096 colors look like pulled from a palette abit more than that ...Color means something only if you use it most Jag games dont.That goes for alot of stuff....Performace too....Just like my boss said today "To be seen doing something is better than saying you can or will do it!" Talk is cheap...I will give up before you go all Jag crazy on me! :ponder: And start acting like Im some Anti Jag person Harassey!:D Most know me and know that is far from the truth. I just really think that If it was easy..it would of been done...So, in its sleep sounds .....like alot of work if it possibe....So its not to easy to do. And will probably never happen. Specs and talk are only as good as what the thing can show that it can do...then now or future...so Ill wait. Even for a really bad demo...

I gave my respect to the Jag and still do...But I will give much respect to the Neo for its Awesomeness in the 2-D realm. Neo shows what it can do..and do for many...many years. I guess I wait for something to show on the Jag. Saying the Neo is nothing and cannot come close in the 2-D Jag could do...Nah not true...I think it would hold its own pretty well.

I know most Jag games dont come close to using the awesomeness of the palette it can do. Or 3d Most of anything sprite wise I have seen on Jag has been..well...not all impressive. I also said the color would be pretty close on Neo for Rayman port.... Not exact. But Im positive that the Neo can do a very respectable job recreating any Jag 2-D game..

Here are afew vids of some of the Neo games I have mentioned....and would like to see this type of sprite/animation/action...crazyness on Jag a Jag game in the future..DOES NOT MEAN A FIGHTER or SHOOTER....just a 2-D game..

 

Blazing Star

Intro with FMV

Stage 1 Nice Multilevel Scrolling and sky animation

The best looking background Animatin...

 

Pulstar

Intro

 

Rage of Dragons

Check out how big Abobo is..And shows every charater in game..love how there is full screen attacks.

 

Metal Slug 3

My Fav Boss in 3...I love the Nukes he pulls out and slams down....This guy makes it look so simple

 

So I see no problem with the Neo running multiple background..animated backgrounds....Large sprites....multiple large sprites..No slowdown...doesnt look like the Neo has any problem running stuff so what does all this really matter:

 

The sprites on the Neo are limited. 16 pixels across and 512 high.

To get many of those BIG characters on those Neo Geo games,

you are eating up several sprites for ONE object on screen.

 

No back drop layers. That means even the background needs to eat up

many of those sprites. 320 pixels / 16 pixel sprite requires 20 sprites

per back ground on the Neo.

 

Lots of stuff going on in these vids...When seen In person not youtube quality you wil be even more impressed...

 

Now....one more time...What was the problem with Native....Oh here it is:

 

"This demo does not contain sounds, level bosses, and the Native extra weapon system due the low amount of available work RAM. Remember: It is not possible to reload data with the current version of the Jag-Server software, therefore we have to store all the compressed Native data in memory. We have to divide the memory into 1 MB work RAM and 1 MB compressed data. It was simply not possible to include more data like all the sounds and the 2 level bosses. Sorry.

 

Some Technical Details: 60 FPS (50 Hz PAL is not supported in the demo), 16 Bit CrY mode, Up to 4 layers of parallax scrolling, Transparency and lighting effects, Up to 120 sprites (OP-Objects) on-screen, Scaling effects (OP), Real time data decrunch (DSP), Game engine running completely on the GPU, Rotation effects (not included in demo - not enough work RAM).

 

Roland Graf - Coding, Johannes Graf - All graphics - Level design, Gordon Gibson - ICE decrunch routine

We don't have a publisher for Native yet. If we don't find a solution in the next 4 weeks we will stop any work on this game. As you can see on the demo size it is not possible to make a 16 MBit (2 MByte) cartridge out of this game. The complete level with the 2 bosses and FX samples will take about 1.6 MByte (and still does not contain any music). We are using a good compression algorithm but 2D graphics do need a lot of memory. The only solution is a CD version but we don't have a CD-devkit.

...."

 

 

Hmmm so this game could not be put onto a cart....Well even if they do bankswitching for it, They still didnt have enough work RAM he said ...So did this 1 level game max out the RAM on the Jag for the 1 level so no Music/Weapons/Bosses....rotation effect could be added? :ponder:

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Rayman with 4096 colors thanks to the GBA.

 

post-12969-1238509399_thumb.png

 

vs. Jag.

 

post-12969-1238509843_thumb.png

 

There's a huge difference in the amount of dithering used, due to the 16 color limitations of the Advance sprites...a weakness shared by the Neo Geo hardware.

 

Yeah NOT too mention that GBA 240x160 resolution dosent make it look worse... :ponder:

You but that in Jaguar resolution I believe you would see much improvement.. :D You would have more pixels for more color.

I think it would look pretty damn good yes?

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Im pretty Blind....I guess...:P And I know I can sure make alittle color go a damn far way....Maybe its just from my old Amiga animation/programing years...dunno but I know how to make 32 or 64 or 4096 colors look like pulled from a palette abit more than that ...Color means something only if you use it most Jag games dont.That goes for alot of stuff....Performace too....Just like my boss said today "To be seen doing something is better than saying you can or will do it!" Talk is cheap...

 

If it was easy..it would of been done...So, in its sleep sounds .....like alot of work if it possibe....So its not to easy to do. And will probably never happen. Specs and talk are only as good as what the thing can show that it can do...then now or future...so Ill wait. Even for a really bad demo...

 

Look for the last time it WOULD have been easy but EXPENSIVE to have the bank switched carts, and Atari were CHEAP - forever trying to squeeze the games into the tiniest cart possible (devs had to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to do 4MB carts) . They also didn't want the games to be as expensive as the NG games were.

 

It was COST for crying out loud, why can't you understand that?

 

It's not complicated.

 

"Talk is cheap"
and this from someone with no clue about Jag coding ... sheesh :roll: Edited by Atari_Owl
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Hmmm so this game could not be put onto a cart....Well even if they do bankswitching for it, They still didnt have enough work RAM he said ...So did this 1 level game max out the RAM on the Jag for the 1 level so no Music/Weapons/Bosses....rotation effect could be added? :ponder:

 

Yes it´s true that this maybe wouldn´t have fit on a cart, but the RAM problem was caused by not using an official development system.

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Im pretty Blind....I guess...:P And I know I can sure make alittle color go a damn far way....Maybe its just from my old Amiga animation/programing years...dunno but I know how to make 32 or 64 or 4096 colors look like pulled from a palette abit more than that ...Color means something only if you use it most Jag games dont.That goes for alot of stuff....Performace too....Just like my boss said today "To be seen doing something is better than saying you can or will do it!" Talk is cheap...I will give up before you go all Jag crazy on me! :ponder: And start acting like Im some Anti Jag person Harassey!:D Most know me and know that is far from the truth. I just really think that If it was easy..it would of been done...So, in its sleep sounds .....like alot of work if it possibe....So its not to easy to do.

 

 

Please STOP talking out of your ass. It has nothing to do with easy. It has everything to do with

what developers were signed on and what Atari wanted from them.

 

You can't be serious about the color differences. I beg of you to go see an eye doctor.

 

And will probably never happen. Specs and talk are only as good as what the thing can show that it can do...then now or future...so Ill wait. Even for a really bad demo...

 

Native Demo.

 

Native blows every video away you just showed. I laughed at every link. My mom had to call an ambulance

as I was laughing so hard, I could not breathe.

 

 

I gave my respect to the Jag and still do...But I will give much respect to the Neo for its Awesomeness in the 2-D realm. Neo shows what it can do..and do for many...many years. I guess I wait for something to show on the Jag. Saying the Neo is nothing and cannot come close in the 2-D Jag could do...Nah not true...I think it would hold its own pretty well.

 

Spoken like a true Neo-Geo Kool-aid drinker. You just go ahead and keep ignoring the FACTS I presented.

You believe all the fan boy deception you want but you could not be more laughable.

 

I know most Jag games dont come close to using the awesomeness of the palette it can do. Or 3d Most of anything sprite wise I have seen on Jag has been..well...not all impressive.

 

There are no such things as sprites in 3D. They are polygonal.

 

I also said the color would be pretty close on Neo for Rayman port.... Not exact. But Im positive that the Neo can do a very

respectable job recreating any Jag 2-D game..

 

Without the color and paralax...and it would be as laugable a comparison as those FMV garbage you call games for the Neo

Geo.

 

Blazing Star
Intro with FMV

Stage 1 Nice Multilevel Scrolling and sky animation

The best looking background Animatin...

 

Pulstar

Intro

 

Rage of Dragons

Check out how big Abobo is..And shows every charater in game..love how there is full screen attacks.

 

My Fav Boss in 3...I love the Nukes he pulls out and slams down....This guy makes it look so simple

 

 

All FMV garbage. The Shooter was the most laughable. Everything you display is nothing for the Jaguar...in it's sleep.

The color is clearly inferior to even shit Jag games. I was disappointed and really thought you were going to actually

show something that would impress me. BZZZZT! I've seen these and bettter on the Neo Geo. I was hoping to see

some stellar impossible trick on the Neo Geo that the JAg cant out do....Sorry , you have failed.

 

 

 

Because all the logic and facts int he world can't convince a fan boy so I understand your self-deception.

 

 

 

I've seen just about every Neo Geo game out there and nothing shows me it can hold a candle to the Jaguar.

It just plain can't.

 

 

 

Im so glad you pointed this out....this will prove you dont know what you are talikng about.....

 

"This demo does not contain sounds, level bosses, and the Native extra weapon system due the low amount of available work RAM. Remember: It is not possible to reload data with the current version of the Jag-Server software, therefore we have to store all the compressed Native data in memory. We have to divide the memory into 1 MB work RAM and 1 MB compressed data. It was simply not possible to include more data like all the sounds and the 2 level bosses. Sorry.

 

Some Technical Details: 60 FPS (50 Hz PAL is not supported in the demo), 16 Bit CrY mode, Up to 4 layers of parallax scrolling, Transparency and lighting effects, Up to 120 sprites (OP-Objects) on-screen, Scaling effects (OP), Real time data decrunch (DSP), Game engine running completely on the GPU, Rotation effects (not included in demo - not enough work RAM).

 

Roland Graf - Coding, Johannes Graf - All graphics - Level design, Gordon Gibson - ICE decrunch routine

We don't have a publisher for Native yet. If we don't find a solution in the next 4 weeks we will stop any work on this game. As you can see on the demo size it is not possible to make a 16 MBit (2 MByte) cartridge out of this game. The complete level with the 2 bosses and FX samples will take about 1.6 MByte (and still does not contain any music). We are using a good compression algorithm but 2D graphics do need a lot of memory. The only solution is a CD version but we don't have a CD-devkit.

...."

 

 

Hmmm so this game could not be put onto a cart....Well even if they do bankswitching for it, They still didnt have enough work RAM he said ...So did this 1 level game max out the RAM on the Jag for the 1 level so no Music/Weapons/Bosses....rotation effect could be added? :ponder:

 

 

Ah wonderful...even after reading this you still think it supports your claims? You are worse off than I thought.

Not to mention you twisting what he said. The JAg can do 4 megs and 6 megs on cart. Cost was the reason.

Jaguar games were to be costing between 50-70 ndollars, not 200-300 like the Neo Geo.

 

The fact is the Neo Geo cant do a game like duranik without serious color loss.

 

Duranik did not have an official dev kit. That means they did not have the comperssion tools to put this on a 2 meg cart.

This also has much to do with the fact that Neo Geo games cost $200-300 dollars becasue they are using tons moer

memory out on the cart. If Atari allowed more than 4 megs on a cart this would be no issue.

 

The very fact that these guy point out the lack of RAM supports everything I've told you. The systems features of the Jaguar

are such that the true /high color nature of the graphics would eat up a ROM cart in no time.

 

Mad Bodies is only 2 megs. It out-colors ANYTHING you will ever see on the NG. Is also mostly 68k code. So its hardly

working up a sweat.

 

It is quite clear that Duranik is supporting the fact that the Jaguar is worlds more powerful than the Neo Geo.

I bet you dont dare ask Duranik which system is better....I'd bet the farm you'd be rather disappointed at their answer.

 

 

Even if the NG was capable of the same color abilities, it would be instaqntly choked trying to move it using only a

12 mhz 68k....not to mantion run into the same exact ROM issues the JAguar would. I know you like the Neo Geo

and its perfectly ok until you start talking utter nonsense like the above.

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Rayman with 4096 colors thanks to the GBA.

 

post-12969-1238509399_thumb.png

 

vs. Jag.

 

post-12969-1238509843_thumb.png

 

There's a huge difference in the amount of dithering used, due to the 16 color limitations of the Advance sprites...a weakness shared by the Neo Geo hardware.

 

Yeah NOT too mention that GBA 240x160 resolution dosent make it look worse... :ponder:

You but that in Jaguar resolution I believe you would see much improvement.. :D You would have more pixels for more color.

I think it would look pretty damn good yes?

 

 

Open your friggin eyes. That GBA screen looked like shit in comparison. It's a shame when the kool-aid hits someone this hard.

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Im pretty Blind....I guess...:P And I know I can sure make alittle color go a damn far way....Maybe its just from my old Amiga animation/programing years...dunno but I know how to make 32 or 64 or 4096 colors look like pulled from a palette abit more than that ...Color means something only if you use it most Jag games dont.That goes for alot of stuff....Performace too....Just like my boss said today "To be seen doing something is better than saying you can or will do it!" Talk is cheap...

 

If it was easy..it would of been done...So, in its sleep sounds .....like alot of work if it possibe....So its not to easy to do. And will probably never happen. Specs and talk are only as good as what the thing can show that it can do...then now or future...so Ill wait. Even for a really bad demo...

 

Look for the last time it WOULD have been easy but EXPENSIVE to have the bank switched carts, and Atari were CHEAP - forever trying to squeeze the games into the tiniest cart possible (devs had to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to do 4MB carts) . They also didn't want the games to be as expensive as the NG games were.

 

It was COST for crying out loud, why can't you understand that?

 

It's not complicated.

 

"Talk is cheap"
and this from someone with no clue about Jag coding ... sheesh :roll:

 

I totally understand the cost thing.......um CD then. It not like it wasnt there?

So Atari was cheap...a big so what, And everyone walks away happy.....Neo Geo wasnt but its their fault the games were expensive....? Come on guys..Also atari rushed shit...but the system is awesome....Neo didnt rush stuff out but it sucks and Im a looser cuz I like the qaulity (animation big plus)in the most games........Boy next we are going to start saying what a NEO GEO fanboy I am and still cannot say a damn positive thing about the Neo...hmmm typical...I never said Jaguar sucked...far from it...If I didnt like it why do I own all the games, and is my shining point in my collection, and hold it close to my heart like a child?.........programming for it does suck, YESSS! the hardware is great but untill it gets used it useless, most ppl will agree. seeing is believing/talk is cheap...Again....Im a huge Jag fan but I cannot post anything on here without you acting like Im totally dumb...and attacking me...fine! And still don t get half my questions answered..but thats how it goes. And why so angry? I wasnt, but starting to see that ppl just dont wanna be nice when talking about the Jag. You guys acting like the freakin tards at the Neo forums who think the Neo is the best thing since sliced bread when I bring up the Jag their...My point is not in it sleep cuz it really been done. ..I'll just remember this as dont ask what the Jag can do cuz it can do it all.Well as I said before Id offer any artistic/pixel/animation help on a project. Id love to show off the Jag power. I love to do one myself but seeing that I dont have the hardware...and the umf to put it alltogether...Im SOL.

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So many words saying so little... The Neo Geo is a great piece of hardware that had every last drop of potential squeezed out of it to produce all kinds of fantastic games for like 15 years after its launch. The Jaguar is a much more advanced piece of hardware, full of even more potential, but it was never really tapped until years after its commercial demise. Nobody is denying that the Neo Geo did some amazing things with what it had; it certainly did make games that looked much better than anyone thought a platform from the late '80s could produce. The fact remains, however, that the Jaguar is simply capable of more, and can likely do the same things better.

 

You're not coming off as a Neo Geo fanboy, nonner242 (despite what Gorf may say ;) ), but you are sorta missing the point that Gorf is trying to make; that the Jaguar can do everything the Neo Geo did and much more... It just hasn't... Yet.

Edited by minuS
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Thats what I wanted to hear pretty much. Thanks! I wasnt sure about the system memory abilty for 2-D stuff. If it was like the Playstation vs Saturn on 2-D. I know both had memory problems with large 2-D sprite games but Sega made the Ram cart to help out the Saturn...which it did!

And I also no why nobody has tried yet on Jag...too hard to program for? or no interest?...If its that powerful of a 2-D machine msurprised ppl here are not all over it for some new 2-D stuff..

Edited by nonner242
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This is what I was talking about..Overdramitic Non friendly Attacks......Stop acting like I called you a idiot or attacked you as a person. I have been asking outta curiosity I have not been attacking you or calling you names...Calling me a kool-aid neo loving as(E)s...is nothing other than Childish. And very untrue. Thats telling me one thing, you dont know all! You dont know me fool!

So listen here you NES megaboy with pink pants and a flower in you ass. :ponder:

You are just being a Jag Hag... :P ....I couldnt help myself...If you wanna act like this thats fine with me go ahead.

Stop with the name calling...and acting like you know the first thing about me. I had respect for you. I am telling you that If this stupid namecalling keeps up, you will have lost all love I had.

If I offended you.

Im not trying to do that to you. Never indented it.

If I did, Im sorry If hurt you feelings somehow.

Now get the $%^ over it and read!

 

STOP taking things so personable.

Stop Please!

 

But seeing how you feel very fiesty...

 

I decided to go thru the post below and Add some stuff "Look for the Bold Black" for Newly added content by the NONNER242.

 

RED=EVIL COMMUNIST NEO GEO FANBOY NONNER242...who hates ATARI :evil:

BLUE=ALL LOVING Kind GORF |:)

 

 

Im pretty Blind....I guess...:P And I know I can sure make alittle color go a damn far way....Maybe its just from my old Amiga animation/programing years...dunno but I know how to make 32 or 64 or 4096 colors look like pulled from a palette abit more than that ...Color means something only if you use it most Jag games dont.That goes for alot of stuff....Performace too....Just like my boss said today "To be seen doing something is better than saying you can or will do it!" Talk is cheap...I will give up before you go all Jag crazy on me! :ponder: And start acting like Im some Anti Jag person Harassey!:D Most know me and know that is far from the truth. I just really think that If it was easy..it would of been done...So, in its sleep sounds .....like alot of work if it possibe....So its not to easy to do.

 

Please STOP talking out of your ass. It has nothing to do with easy. It has everything to do with

what developers were signed on and what Atari wanted from them.

 

OK I get that..not the systems fault it Ataris

 

You can't be serious about the color differences. I beg of you to go see an eye doctor.

 

I am! I said It can look very respectable and close...but you can ignore that, The Jag did alot of that too.

 

And will probably never happen. Specs and talk are only as good as what the thing can show that it can do...then now or future...so Ill wait. Even for a really bad demo...

 

Native Demo.

 

Great demo!

 

Native blows every video away you just showed. I laughed at every link. My mom had to call an ambulance

as I was laughing so hard, I could not breathe.

 

Sorry you do not see any artistic talent in those games...Maybe your a 3-D loving guy Maybe your just very Anti Neo Geo? I think games like Pulstar, Blazing Star and Raiden 2 are really awesome in their hand drawn or CG style. Very detailed stuff but I forgot I need my eyes checked.

 

 

I gave my respect to the Jag and still do...But I will give much respect to the Neo for its Awesomeness in the 2-D realm. Neo shows what it can do..and do for many...many years. I guess I wait for something to show on the Jag. Saying the Neo is nothing and cannot come close in the 2-D Jag could do...Nah not true...I think it would hold its own pretty well.

 

Spoken like a true Neo-Geo Kool-aid drinker. You just go ahead and keep ignoring the FACTS I presented.

You believe all the fan boy deception you want but you could not be more laughable.

 

Another hit on me like Im a Neo fan...OK. And I still think that the neo could do many 2-D games the Jag did:

Syndicate

Theme Park

Bubsy

Primal Rage

Baldies

Atari Karts

Brutal Sports Footbal

Double Dragon V

Dino Dude

Fever pitch

Total Carnage

Flip Out

Rayman

Flashback

Raiden

Protector

Soccer Kid

Worms

 

all seem like nothing to run on the Neo... I dont think thats a stretch there is nothing all that impressive about them....So what is the problem with that?

 

I know most Jag games dont come close to using the awesomeness of the palette it can do. Or 3d Most of anything sprite wise I have seen on Jag has been..well...not all impressive.

 

There are no such things as sprites in 3D. They are polygonal.

 

I meant that the Neo couldnt do 3-D and the Jag had a Awesome palette to work with...

But you wanna take that as a way to get another hit on me thats fine...you do know it was pretty late for me to be up typing so, sorry for the typeO.

 

I also said the color would be pretty close on Neo for Rayman port.... Not exact. But Im positive that the Neo can do a very

respectable job recreating any Jag 2-D game..Without the color and paralax...and it would be as laugable a comparison as those FMV garbage you call games for the Neo

Geo.

 

Wow I dont know why you you think the Neo really couldnt do this game justice. I still said it wont be as exact on color, but it would look damn good for sure .

I know it could handle all the animation & sprites no problem. So its reduced to a palette of 4096 colors. But the game would still stay intact.

 

Blazing Star

Intro with FMV

Stage 1 Nice Multilevel Scrolling and sky animation

The best looking background Animatin...

 

Pulstar

Intro

 

Rage of Dragons

Check out how big Abobo is..And shows every charater in game..love how there is full screen attacks.

 

My Fav Boss in 3...I love the Nukes he pulls out and slams down....This guy makes it look so simple

 

All FMV garbage. The Shooter was the most laughable. Everything you display is nothing for the Jaguar...in it's sleep.

The color is clearly inferior to even shit Jag games. I was disappointed and really thought you were going to actually

show something that would impress me. BZZZZT! I've seen these and bettter on the Neo Geo. I was hoping to see

some stellar impossible trick on the Neo Geo that the JAg cant out do....Sorry , you have failed.

 

I was just showing a few I mentioned ealier in post for ppl who may not know what they are...Yeah the Youtube video suck on quality but they games are nice...but you must be some hater...to not see anything good in these...like I hate the Jag huh? It wasnt for you, it was just some examples fo others..So yeah go by those pics call the color crappy whatever maybe someone else things they are kinda cool...And would like to see something like that on the Jag only better....Being my whole point of this thing...but sure try and make me look like an dufuss...

 

 

 

Metal Slug 3 I see no problem with the Neo running multiple background..animated backgrounds....Large sprites....multiple large sprites..No slowdown...doesnt look like the Neo has any problem running stuff so what does all this really matter:

 

Because all the logic and facts int he world can't convince a fan boy so I understand your self-deception.

 

LOL another fanboy hit...Man you really cant stop...whos face are you putting on me? Why you hate?

 

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

Edited by nonner242
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Lots of stuff going on in these vids...When seen In person not youtube quality you wil be even more impressed...

 

I've seen just about every Neo Geo game out there and nothing shows me it can hold a candle to the Jaguar.

It just plain can't.

 

I said before...but you wanna ignore it everytime...You just dont get it. Its what Atari put out wasnt impressive...rehashed BS....Your right there is nothing the Jag cannot handle...but there wasnt much 2-D on the Jag the Neo couldnt run either...But you really wanna make this into something anti Neo and me a fool.

 

Now....one more time...What was the problem with Native....Oh here it is:

 

Im so glad you pointed this out....this will prove you dont know what you are talikng about.....

 

No, yes... more of a question about ram..I wasnt trying to "PROVE" anything.....take it as you will.....Im trying to understand the problem.....but go ahead..attack any time you can. Please make yourself feel good I guess.

 

"This demo does not contain sounds, level bosses, and the Native extra weapon system due the low amount of available work RAM. Remember: It is not possible to reload data with the current version of the Jag-Server software, therefore we have to store all the compressed Native data in memory. We have to divide the memory into 1 MB work RAM and 1 MB compressed data. It was simply not possible to include more data like all the sounds and the 2 level bosses. Sorry.

 

Some Technical Details: 60 FPS (50 Hz PAL is not supported in the demo), 16 Bit CrY mode, Up to 4 layers of parallax scrolling, Transparency and lighting effects, Up to 120 sprites (OP-Objects) on-screen, Scaling effects (OP), Real time data decrunch (DSP), Game engine running completely on the GPU, Rotation effects (not included in demo - not enough work RAM).

 

Roland Graf - Coding, Johannes Graf - All graphics - Level design, Gordon Gibson - ICE decrunch routine

We don't have a publisher for Native yet. If we don't find a solution in the next 4 weeks we will stop any work on this game. As you can see on the demo size it is not possible to make a 16 MBit (2 MByte) cartridge out of this game. The complete level with the 2 bosses and FX samples will take about 1.6 MByte (and still does not contain any music). We are using a good compression algorithm but 2D graphics do need a lot of memory. The only solution is a CD version but we don't have a CD-devkit.

...."

 

 

Hmmm so this game could not be put onto a cart....Well even if they do bankswitching for it, They still didnt have enough work RAM he said ...So did this 1 level game max out the RAM on the Jag for the 1 level so no Music/Weapons/Bosses....rotation effect could be added? :ponder:

 

 

Ah wonderful...even after reading this you still think it supports your claims? You are worse off than I thought.

Not to mention you twisting what he said. The JAg can do 4 megs and 6 megs on cart. Cost was the reason.

Jaguar games were to be costing between 50-70 ndollars, not 200-300 like the Neo Geo.

 

I was asking....but you dont see that..I was asking if it used all the work RAM? What did I twist? Im missing that still. So...I wanted to know if there was away to even ADD to the level Music/Weapons/Bosses not cart size. I was wondering if they meant of it as like trying to play Crisis on a old PC just not enough system memory to add the rest...My bad. But again I shouldnt ask.

 

The fact is the Neo Geo cant do a game like duranik without serious color loss.

 

Damn color loss really isnt everything...Im pretty happy with my older systems and games. Im going to put it this way. Maybe you and other ppl will understand better my thoughts of you color obsession... If you game me say TMNT the arcade game...and ported it to Genesis...I now that some color would be lost not much but some..noticeable maybe but I dont think I would make a difference if the games still looked sprite wise and played the same...Id be all over it. And you would not mind the minor difference.

 

Duranik did not have an official dev kit. That means they did not have the comperssion tools to put this on a 2 meg cart.

This also has much to do with the fact that Neo Geo games cost $200-300 dollars becasue they are using tons moer

memory out on the cart. If Atari allowed more than 4 megs on a cart this would be no issue.

 

Was there no way for them to get any help from anybody out there. Did anyone know or care before it was too late? Or have someone that had one do it? No way to put it on CD? These are just questions?Not attacks...but do as you want...I pretty used to it by now ;)

The very fact that these guy point out the lack of RAM supports everything I've told you. The systems features of the Jaguar

are such that the true /high color nature of the graphics would eat up a ROM cart in no time.

 

That made me wonder why they didnt go CD..I didnt relize they had no kit. Also who put it on CD? Carl?

 

Mad Bodies is only 2 megs. It out-colors ANYTHING you will ever see on the NG. Is also mostly 68k code. So its hardly

working up a sweat.

 

Thats sweet love to own/play it...been waiting for a long time for this...and others. I love your Gorf CD, think its the bomb, still one of my Fav games then and now, but Im banned from any Atari site after today so someone E-mail me the details on MB buddies!

PART2

 

 

It is quite clear that Duranik is supporting the fact that the Jaguar is worlds more powerful than the Neo Geo.

I bet you dont dare ask Duranik which system is better....I'd bet the farm you'd be rather disappointed at their answer.

 

I wouldnt expect him too. Have no clue why I would think that? But I turned into something EVIL in your eyes...Thats fine...I never said better..but go ahead.

 

 

Even if the NG was capable of the same color abilities, it would be instaqntly choked trying to move it using only a

12 mhz 68k....not to mantion run into the same exact ROM issues the JAguar would. I know you like the Neo Geo

and its perfectly ok until you start talking utter nonsense like the above.

 

I will never ask anything again...I see that its not liked if people are curious about stuff. I Also see that people would like to insult me. I never said I was a programming god....or anything close to that....But jump on me in animation or working with a low color palette that another storty. I totally disagre about native being far superior, from what I have seen as in the DEMO its good..WOULD BE awesome if it was finish the way they wanted or looked like the other nonplayable Demos I saw of it. But thats me I guess.

 

Gorf you are family, well my atari family. Dont you ever think you can call me a NEO FAN BOY AGAIN! I will freaking kill you!

That pisses me off that you made it seemed like Im not part of this site at all. And Anti Jaguar! WTF!

You really need to have fun with ppl not attack.

Youll turn into Random Terrain... :ponder: Sorry man even worse Zylobain :rolling:

 

I just feel very disappointed on the way you chose your replies back to me. Not once but many times...

I would never do that to another member here unless they called me something very bad first...and kept it up for a post or two.

Hope you understand...If not..It cuz I type when Im tired and speak Lagzeezhopf.

Peace!...Going to play with my GF...another reason Im tired..

Edited by nonner242
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AVP on the SNES..... ummm.... WTF???

 

Guys its simple. The Jag obviously has a lot more power than the SNES. Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously handicap in some manor and should be left alone!

 

Not counting games with the FX/FX2 chip... do we dare compare Wolf3D on the two? I mean lets see the Jags sprites and textures have about 4 times the resolution, the screen is bigger and it run smoother. Yeah no contest they aren't even in the same ballpark here.

 

Its been said before. Doom. Its simple. Doom on the Jag has full textures, roof and floor! The screen is full sized, the resolution is higher and the frame rate is like... what 3 time faster?? Considering the SNES isn't even running DooM... the newer, more advanced and costly FX2 chip is. There is no reason to compare them. Even with all the firepower added to the SNES in DooM it still can't compare in the graphics department. The SNES version is bare, lower res, not full screen and runs choppy as hell.

 

People say Star Fox looks better than Battlemorph? Once again if we ignore the fact this SNES game is getting major help from the FX chip in the cartridge. The game still has a much smaller poly count and nothing is shaded. The ground on Star fox is bare, no terrain at all. Once again no comparison. Star Fox may be a better game. That's an opinion. But technically its WAY simpler than Battlemorph.

 

The Jag clearly has a ton more power than the SNES. This is retarded to even imagine otherwise. Now the Jag had its fair share of problems no doubt. We all know it was overly complex and hard to program for and I guess it has a memory speed bottleneck. But common they aren't even remotely close!!

 

The Jag came out at the worst possible time. Several years after the SNES and several years before the 32-bit era. No one was going to buy a new console so shortly after buying into the SNES. The 16-bit era was in full swing. The SNES and Gen in their prime! Nothing was going to take a bite out of that action! Without giving time for them to die and start to fade, then the next gen can come in (Sat/PSX)

Edited by MN12BIRD
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MN12BIRD hit the nail on the head.

 

As far as Neo vs. Jag. I think what it boils down to, is the Neo obviously has massive amounts of storage capacity. This was one of the main problems with the Jag if you ask me... The Neo hardware is not as powerfull as the Jag, however, you basically have unlimited space to do whatever you want in a game... With the Jag, you have a very limited amount of space to work with. If Atari hadn't died right after it launched the Jag CD, there would have been some damn impressive stuff come out on the Jag CD. Easily matching the likes of what was on the Saturn and Playstation as far as 2d, and even 3d, it would hold it's own with the Saturn atleast...

 

Of course the main handicap Jag games have is, compared to the Neo, PS and Saturn, it had hardly any developers, and basically none of the top development teams worked on the Jag. Neo games were built for the arcade by obviously gifted coders in Japan who knew the system inside and out... Most Jag games were made by startup devs or, shall we say, not top notch devs... Of course there are exceptions... Atari just couldn't afford the high cost of hiring top notch dev teams to make top notch games for the Jag... It's too bad.

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AVP on the SNES..... ummm.... WTF???

 

Sorry, I dont get your comparison...or what your trying to say.....But SNES blows next to Jag or Neo...So What does this has to do with what? There really no games from either system SNES can run well if at all. Other than Bubsy,Double Dragon v a few Puzzle Bobble type games and the 1st Fatal Fury or King of Monsters. And my questions have been for 2D not 3D or SFX cards. AVP for SNES that would be funny tho...or should I say horrid...ugh! And thanks for reminding me on how much I miss playing Wolf3D! :D

Edited by nonner242
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Well as far as I can see the Jaguar is a much more powerful system than the SNES was. In 2-D and in 3-D without any problem. When the Jaguar was launched there were not that many 3D games on the home market. Most people played 2D. And in 2D the Jaguar kicks ass. This was the part where it was really good at... great pallette, great resolution and many many many sprites - very very big ;) I am sure it could outshow the Playstation in 2D games and I don´t think it has problems with doing so to the Neo Geo. But the Neo Geo in fact has a lot of nice looking games and if you have an old TV you won´t have that big difference in the view. But as one already said, look at Crescent Galaxy... this a title which came out at Jaguar´s launch and graphically this beated any sidescroller of that time. The Neo Geo game obviously has lower resolution and less colors. And the Neo Geo, at least here in Europe was VERY uncommon, even more uncommon than the Jaguar. I have never seen a SNES or Megadrive (genesis - 16 colors!!!) sidescroller game looking like crescent galaxy... and Native would have blown everything away.

 

In 3-D the Jaguar also bet any system of it´s time (1993), I am not really sure about the 3DO, as this had Need 4 Speed and no Jaguar racing game is compareable to that... but on the one hand it´s on CD, so you can´t compare it to cart games and on the other hand I think that the backgrounds are prerenderred videos from the cd.

 

But if you look at Supercross 3D, this is real 3D on cart... unfortunately with a little low framerate, but impressive for a cart ;)

 

World Tour Racing on the Jaguar is a great game, I like it very much, but I think it could have been done a lot better... at least when it comes to ground textures for the road... The best looking road on a Jaguar game is in Super Burnout... but when I see engines like Skyhammer, there´s hope for a decent racing game ;)

 

I hope that the Jaguar will get at least a few games which show what could have been possible back in 1993 and I am sure that one day we will see some!

Edited by Atari_Falcon
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