115 replies to this topic

[drac030]

Please calm down. Help is always appreciated and it is certainly nothing "bad" to do anything with the stuff made freely available for download, but modifying the stuff and providing on own site certainly needs consultation with the original site/project maintainer, especially if it is a current project.

The potential inconvenience of distributing mirrored copies of the software or documentation is that, when these files will get updated on the main sites, people who count on such a easy mirror as here will miss the updates, as a local link provided here will certainly distract them from looking at the correct place.

@flashjazzcat: true, thank you for the report. You may consider subscribing to the bugtracker: http://dlt.krap.pl

Edited by drac030, Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:30 AM.

[flashjazzcat]

drac030, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 1:25 PM, said:

The potential inconvenience of distributing mirrored copies of the software or documentation is that, when these files will get updated on the main sites, people who count on such a easy mirror as here will miss the updates, as a local link provided here will certainly distract them from looking at the correct place.

I was happy to download an AtariWin compatible SDX cart from whatever source but your comments are sensible. As someone who's seen unaltered copies of their own software hosted on various sites without permission, I'd prefer people to link to my own site instead of using mirrors. Where modifications are concerned, of course this depends on good communication, and the willingness of the author to consider hosting good third-party modifications on the originating site.

Re bug report: Will do!

Edited by flashjazzcat, Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:34 AM.

[trub]

drac030, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 3:25 PM, said:

The potential inconvenience of distributing mirrored copies of the software or documentation is that, when these files will get updated on the main sites, people who count on such a easy mirror as here will miss the updates, as a local link provided here will certainly distract them from looking at the correct place.

Unfortunately this is not a "potential", but real inconvenience. SDX Maxflash 1Mb image has been updated two weeks ago (with RTime-8 issue fixed), while the .car file posted by dwhyte still contains the previous version. We would like to avoid such situations in the future.
Dwhyte's idea of making ready-to-use cartridge image for the popular emulator is very good (we have never thought about it, because most of us use real machines ). You must understand however, that it should be hosted at one place with other stuff for easy update.

We don't want to discourage anyone to submit new solutions or ideas. There is a bug tracker system which can be used for that. We very much appreciate any feedback.

[_The Doctor__]

I concur, but would like to see a mirrored site, so that if anything happens nothing is lost. I can no longer handle any more mirrors myself, but I am sure there are others who still have a few spots and some bandwidth still available.

trub, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 10:40 AM, said:

drac030, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 3:25 PM, said:

The potential inconvenience of distributing mirrored copies of the software or documentation is that, when these files will get updated on the main sites, people who count on such a easy mirror as here will miss the updates, as a local link provided here will certainly distract them from looking at the correct place.

Unfortunately this is not a "potential", but real inconvenience. SDX Maxflash 1Mb image has been updated two weeks ago (with RTime-8 issue fixed), while the .car file posted by dwhyte still contains the previous version. We would like to avoid such situations in the future.
Dwhyte's idea of making ready-to-use cartridge image for the popular emulator is very good (we have never thought about it, because most of us use real machines ). You must understand however, that it should be hosted at one place with other stuff for easy update.

We don't want to discourage anyone to submit new solutions or ideas. There is a bug tracker system which can be used for that. We very much appreciate any feedback.

[David_P]

trub, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 10:40 AM, said:

Unfortunately this is not a "potential", but real inconvenience. SDX Maxflash 1Mb image has been updated two weeks ago (with RTime-8 issue fixed), while the .car file posted by dwhyte still contains the previous version.

This does speak to one concern I have - if 4.42 was updated, it shouldn't be 4.42 anymore. Changing the name, even to "4.42a", it would let people know that there has been an update.

Please note, though, that if the only complaint I have is about the version number you must be doing things incredibly well!!!

[sl0re]

_The Doctor__, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 11:01 AM, said:

I concur, but would like to see a mirrored site, so that if anything happens nothing is lost. I can no longer handle any more mirrors myself, but I am sure there are others who still have a few spots and some bandwidth still available.

trub, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 10:40 AM, said:

drac030, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 3:25 PM, said:

The potential inconvenience of distributing mirrored copies of the software or documentation is that, when these files will get updated on the main sites, people who count on such a easy mirror as here will miss the updates, as a local link provided here will certainly distract them from looking at the correct place.

Unfortunately this is not a "potential", but real inconvenience. SDX Maxflash 1Mb image has been updated two weeks ago (with RTime-8 issue fixed), while the .car file posted by dwhyte still contains the previous version. We would like to avoid such situations in the future.
Dwhyte's idea of making ready-to-use cartridge image for the popular emulator is very good (we have never thought about it, because most of us use real machines ). You must understand however, that it should be hosted at one place with other stuff for easy update.

We don't want to discourage anyone to submit new solutions or ideas. There is a bug tracker system which can be used for that. We very much appreciate any feedback.

I do think an offical mirror is a good suggestion. If anything happens to the main site or the person who's name it is in stops paying bills and/or it goes down, et cetera. It has happened before to people with Atari projects on line (AOL users who had their data lost by AOL)....

[trub]

David_P, on Wed Feb 4, 2009 6:07 AM, said:

if 4.42 was updated, it shouldn't be 4.42 anymore.

This has been discussed and we decided to change just the revision date and leave the version number intact. Changing the version would be more confusing, because the problem applies to Maxflash 1Mb image only and systems with a double cartridge slot. The people who had this problem were announced that the update was available.
In fact, the modification is minor (an additional line in CAR:CONFIG.SYS) and one can achieve the same by a custom CONFIG.SYS.

[GoodByteXL]

dwhyte, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 5:30 AM, said:

I guess the days of helping fellow Atarians are slowly slipping away... And that is something I'm disappointed with..

EDIT:I've deleted the .car file that bothered you off of my AtariAge attachments. I take it rdea6 went through all the proper channels...

Hey,

like Draco & Trub stated, help and ideas are always welcome everywhere in the ATARI 8-bit world.

As an active member of the largest ATARI 8-bit group worldwide I know that very well.

But putting up modified versions of living projects without getting in touch with the brains behind are no support to the community.
Thank you for taking off the modded version.

Hopefully, the modded manual will disappear as well from the downloads, since it is already a bit outdated.

What I concur with is the idea of a safe mirror.

Edited by GoodByteXL, Wed Feb 4, 2009 6:36 AM.

[rdea6]

rdea6, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:01 PM, said:

dwhyte, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:34 AM, said:

For those having trouble getting 4.42 working in an emulator you can download the .car file I've made for emulator usage here.

This can also be done to the 8mb maxflash cartridge then you have manpath on CAR:

Attachment is not a .car file just a .bin but can be converted .car

I seems to me that I should delete this file after reading the need to keep a working project intact.

So go look in the correct place.

[MrFish]

GoodByteXL, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 2:44 AM, said:

dwhyte, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:34 AM, said:

For those having trouble getting 4.42 working in an emulator you can download the .car file I've made for emulator usage here.

From Thu Jan 29, 5:34 AM:

For those having trouble getting 4.42 working in an emulator you can download the .car file I've made for emulator usage here.

GoodByteXL, on Mon Feb 2, 2009 11:47 AM, said:

MrFish, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:39 AM, said:

Completely bookmarked: SpartaDO...2_Manual.zip

Hm, interesting, did you use Acrobat Professional or something like that?

BTW, whom did you ask for mirroring ?

Hm,

as expected no reaction ...

To say it very plain - it is a question of manners. Some people have, some don't have ...

I would expect to get contacted before mixing up a living project I am working on, which took a lot of efforts and especially in programming aspects a lot of brainworks.

I have a very little part in SpartaDOS X 4.42, but I am definitely disappointed by people who do not show a minimum of respect, like e.g. "Mr Fish" or "dwhyte".

This is my personal remark and may or may not apply to all involved in SDX.

My apologies for any disrespect taken from my post of the bookmarked SpartaDOS X manual. I certainly intended no disrespect towards anyone. Quite the contrary, I hold in high regard anyone who makes a significant contribution to the Atari 8-bit community. My interest in bookmarking the manual was for my own ease of use, and I was attempting to make that convenience available to the rest of the community. I respect your concerns Goodbyte, and I agree with what's been said regarding distribution.

In my defense, I didn't see your original post (concerning mirroring) until just now, otherwise I would have responded to it. I was also up very late when I did the bookmarking, and posting it seemed like a good idea at the time. If you would like to discuss the matter further, I would be glad to do so via PM.

[MrFish]

PDF Manual with bookmarks removed with help from admin...

[dwhyte]

GoodByteXL, on Wed Feb 4, 2009 5:25 AM, said:

dwhyte, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 5:30 AM, said:

I guess the days of helping fellow Atarians are slowly slipping away... And that is something I'm disappointed with..

EDIT:I've deleted the .car file that bothered you off of my AtariAge attachments. I take it rdea6 went through all the proper channels...

But putting up modified versions of living projects without getting in touch with the brains behind are no support to the community.

Modified? I never modified anything. I resent your remark. You must be referring to MrFish who actually improved your work GoodByteXL.

I'm also sorry that I and 2 others stole some of your thunder by letting someone download something that you didn't have the pleasure and consideration of releasing yourselves.

flashjazzcat, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:40 AM, said:

Can you explain how you converted it?

I took the 1MBit Maxflash .ATR flashing image posted on the official site and flashed it to an empty 1MBit (128K of zeros [dd=/dev/null of=SpartaDOSX4.42.bin bs=1024 count=128]) ROM file with a little known emulator that handles flashing Maxflash roms in an emulated environment and then posted it to AtariAge because the author of The Last Word wanted one... Not one single bit in the emulator friendly cartridge image that I posted would have been any different than if it was flashed to a real Maxflash cartridge. That is, unless you're going to change the release with bug fixes and not let anyone know that there's a difference between the 4.42 version one downloaded 2 months ago, and the 4.42 version another downloaded 1 month ago. Then fault it also on your end, and not just mine.

I'm officially back to using Real.DOS again... There's no drama associated with it...

Edited by dwhyte, Thu Feb 5, 2009 6:07 AM.

[trub]

Dwhyte, please understand that no one blames you for extracting the ROM file from the ATR. It would be polite however to contact anyone invoved before releasing it to the public...

Quote

That is, unless you're going to change the release with bug fixes and not let anyone know that there's any difference between the 4.42 one downloaded 2 months ago, and the 4.42 version one downloaded 1 month ago, then fault it also on your end, and not just mine.

That's not true. Read above, I have just explained this.

Quote

I'm officially back to using Real.DOS again...

Note that Real.DOS version 1.0a has already several builds. Will you also complain to the author that the version number persists while releasing bugfixed revisions ?

[dwhyte]

trub, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 5:05 AM, said:

Quote

I'm officially back to using Real.DOS again...

Note that Real.DOS version 1.0a has already several builds. Will you also complain to the author that the version number persists while releasing bugfixed revisions ?

That depends. Is someone going to whine if I post an .ATR image with Real.DOS on it for usage in an emulator?

trub, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 8:40 AM, said:

We don't want to discourage anyone to submit new solutions or ideas. There is a bug tracker system which can be used for that. We very much appreciate any feedback.

You didn't discourage me at all trub. It was GoodByteXL. Or was he under direction from you to say these things to us?

He definitely influenced me to stay away and not have anything to do with this product. I was a Real.DOS user before 4.42 came out, and now after this debacle, I regret leaving it... I guess I can flash my real Maxflash cartridge with some games again because I'll never use any version of SpartaDOS X from your site again. Your manual writer wants to get all huffy with us... Then have him write a fuckin' EULA for SpartaDOS-X, instead of coming onto the forums here like Grimer Wormtongue...

Edited by dwhyte, Thu Feb 5, 2009 7:04 AM.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Quote

I'm officially back to using Real.DOS again... There's no drama associated with it...

Not so fast, Set Design & Scenery Department here...

Quote

Brains

!!!

I'm sorry, but my Pretentious Meter just went severely out of calibration, & all of the springs popped out of it & are bouncing around the house to the music of Carl Stalling.

Kinda neat, actually...

= )


...& I was planning to getting around to using it, oh well...


Well, we'll have to just work it out by hand.

Everyone have their mechanical pencils & quadrille pads?

Good.

First, the following formula should be taken into consideration with regards to the current versioning practices of this software...

Next, we 0979tbxvnd
bcbfd
zzz
n
mntr759()^3kjgf


ERROR 13

[flashjazzcat]

dwhyte, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 11:17 AM, said:

I took the 1MBit Maxflash .ATR flashing image posted on the official site and flashed it to an empty 1MBit (128K of zeros [dd=/dev/null of=SpartaDOSX4.42.bin bs=1024 count=128]) ROM file with a little known emulator that handles flashing Maxflash roms in an emulated environment and then posted it to AtariAge because the author of The Last Word wanted one...

I hope "emulator friendly" versions of this cart will now be officially released. I had to use a Mac to test my software with SDX 4.42 before this. I do all my coding under emulation. For the past week, 4.42 has been my development platform (it was previously 4.22), and this is just as well, since it threw up two major behind-the-scenes-changes in 4.42 which rendered The Last Word totally inoperable under that operating system. At least I'm now forewarned of the problems: one is fixed, the other remains unresolved.

Personally I think SDX is the "de-facto" OS for the Atari8, and I'm taking pains (and pains they are) to ensure my software works with the latest versions (as well as the older ones). As for software revisions, they're always going to happen, but in the case of an operating system this usually has more impact (especially on developers). The emulator friendly version of SDX was indeed a bit-faithful version of the official release, and a good job too. It's cost me a couple of days' work, but saved me time in the long run being able to test with 4.42. At least the issue of emulator versions of 4.42 is now being taken seriously, too.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Thu Feb 5, 2009 7:29 AM.

[dwhyte]

Oh no wait... I get it now... This is the UNOFFICIAL Sparta DOS X 4.42 thread... Could someone please direct me to the Official one?

[danwinslow]

Come on folks, calm down. This is already a small community, we don't need to force it even smaller. Push your egos back in the bowl and move on.

[drac030]

dwhyte, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 1:09 PM, said:

That depends. Is someone going to whine if I post an .ATR image with Real.DOS on it for usage in an emulator?

If you post an old build, and in the meantime the author publishes a new build on his page, and you don't check this before posting, then, even if noone complains, the fault is at your side.

The information that the 1 MB Maxflash was updated, is 1) written on the download page, 2) was discussed on this forum You simply didn't look. And now the affair gets inflated really beyond its real significance. The simple statement expressed several times above is: if anyone is going to mirror the site's contents, in modified or unmodified form, the site maintainer expects to be ASKED first - by e-mail - if it is desired.

As about what DOS you're going to use, it is entirely your choice. I don't see much point in your repeated statements, that you prefer Real.DOS or whatever - or, in other words, what reaction you expect? Do we have to set GoodByteXL in front of a wall and shoot him in his head, or what?

Quote

You didn't discourage me at all trub. It was GoodByteXL. Or was he under direction from you to say these things to us?

This is not a commercial company, there are no managers or staff here. Can we now let the world move on?

[dwhyte]

drac030, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 6:41 AM, said:

If you post an old build, and in the meantime the author publishes a new build on his page, and you don't check this before posting, then, even if noone complains, the fault is at your side.

So basically what this boils down to is you guys were worried that more people would download the versions that rdea6 and I posted here, rather than from trub's site. And posting them to the same thread that you started (oops, mine accidentally was in another thread on AtariAge but linked)... How dare us? Wouldn't that put the blame on the user for not checking to see what versions were the newest? Or the programmers for not keeping a thread updated? I mean, my .car file was up for a while. Things never started getting heated until GoodByteXL Wormtongue piped up when MrFish posted a better version of the manual than GoodByteXL made for you (not that I got anything against you MrFish. T'was your bookmarked version that I used the most).

You know what? SDX is no longer by definition public domain by what has been written in the past few pages of threads. I shall dub it: Guiltware... In honor of the mighty manual writer... Not exactly shareware, for you can download a fully featured version for free. Don't post it anywhere, don't spread it around... Especially in a thread frequented by the devs and hardcore Atari users...

Edited by dwhyte, Thu Feb 5, 2009 8:37 AM.

[drac030]

dwhyte, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 3:21 PM, said:

Things never started getting heated until GoodByteXL Wormtongue piped up when MrFish posted a better version of the manual than GoodByteXL made for you.

You're a bit exaggerating, IMHO, and I really see no reason for the nerve. Anyway, if you have something against GoodByteXL, why aren't you discussing it with him? Maybe a PM could do better than public "wormtongues" and such.

Quote

Not quite shareware, but you can download it for free. Don't post it anywhere, don't spread it around... Especially in the thread started by one of the devs...

Well, you still seem to refuse to understand, what's the problem, eventhough it was sufficiently (IMHO) explained by trub above. What can I do then.

[dwhyte]

drac030, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 7:37 AM, said:

Well, you still seem to refuse to understand, what's the problem, even though it was sufficiently (IMHO) explained by trub above. What can I do then.

I have nothing against you or trub. In regards to the refusing to understand part: my point was proved, and anger sated. I just wanted to do the same thing GoodByteXL did. Let me show you:

dwhyte, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 4:17 AM, said:

GoodByteXL, on Wed Feb 4, 2009 5:25 AM, said:

dwhyte, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 5:30 AM, said:

I guess the days of helping fellow Atarians are slowly slipping away... And that is something I'm disappointed with..

EDIT:I've deleted the .car file that bothered you off of my AtariAge attachments. I take it rdea6 went through all the proper channels...

But putting up modified versions of living projects without getting in touch with the brains behind are no support to the community.

Modified? I never modified anything. I resent your remark. You must be referring to MrFish who actually improved your work GoodByteXL.

Tit for tat... Quote my words and there will be a response if I feel it is needed, much like how I "quoted" the binary of others in debate, and no one but the manual writer, high on the fact that his text is now included in said binary, did in return... Ohhhh... That's right... I posted a binary that didn't include any of his text...

And you're unequivocally correct drac030... PM'ing would have been a better solution, and a tiny bit less server load. But if he decided not to do it and bring it out in the open, I'm more than equipped to do the same...

GoodByteXL, on Tue Feb 3, 2009 3:44 AM, said:

Hm,

as expected no reaction ...

Edited by dwhyte, Thu Feb 5, 2009 9:35 AM.

[_The Doctor__]

It is common practice in the Linux and open environment as well as shareware/freeware world to include all parts of a project in a distribution of any kind. This was always true in the Atari world as well.

I have noticed a trend on AtariAge of certain members always being bullies with their words. The only way to end the confrontation is to 'let' them 'win'. Or simply ignore the situation, since it is going to be a non issue in the end anyway.

Trub and the Sparta/DLT crew has responded to and helped me with all my SpartaDosX inquiry and configuration. For all the modification, it is remaining for the most part true SpartaDosX in flavor and off the cartridge function.

I have referred to my concerns by version and type in this fashion. ie. SpartaDosX 4.42m1 for the maxflash 1 meg version and he new exactly what image and made the fixes. They also asked that since it was a work in progress that we not use it as our main system till it was where it needed to be, the updates appeared on site quickly.

If anyone wanted to help, they accepted gladly, checked the work and posted either the work or the link to said work on the site.

That being said, there are sometimes grammatic translations that rub people the wrong way in all linguistic divisions. I have repeatedly seen wars on the site because of a misunderstandings over simple feminine/masculine forms or dominant non dominant and submissive forms of sentence structure. Heck even English on English conversations here get way out of hand. Just take it all with a more laid back approach today. Some individuals refuse to see anything other than their point of view.......... but the end result. Usually they are basically agreeing but can't bend over a single sentence. And that becomes the ongoing friction sucking more and more in like a black hole.

The DLT crew are doing an excellent job! ILS is doing a great job as well! I for one am glad that they listen to suggestions concerns and accept my as well as others input as well as they do!

Your contributions usually end up in the project on the page or in some instances you become part of the group.

I implore you to work together on the project both on the Atari Hardware and Emulator front... You all have a great deal to offer.

Edited by _The Doctor__, Thu Feb 5, 2009 1:36 PM.

[sl0re]

_The Doctor__, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 10:58 AM, said:

It is common practice in the Linux and open environment as well as shareware/freeware world to include all parts of a project in a distribution of any kind. This was always true in the Atari world as well.

I have noticed a trend on AtariAge of certain members always being bullies with their words. The only way to end the confrontation is to 'let' them 'win'. Or simply ignore the situation, since it is going to be a non issue in the end anyway.

Trub and the Sparta/DLT crew has responded to and helped me with all my SpartaDosX inquiry and configuration. For all the modification, it is remaining for the most part true SpartaDosX in flavor and off the cartridge function.

I have referred to my concerns by version and type in this fashion. ie. SpartaDosX 4.42m1 for the maxflash 1 meg version and he new exactly what image and made the fixes. They also asked that since it was a work in progress that we not use it as our main system till it was where it needed to be, the updates appeared on site quickly.

If anyone wanted to help, they accepted gladly, checked the work and posted either the work or the link to said work on the site.

That being said, there are sometimes grammatic translations that rub people the wrong way in all linguistic divisions. I have repeatedly seen wars on the site because of a misunderstandings over simple feminine/masculine forms or dominant non dominant forms of sentence structure. Heck even English on English conversations here get way out of hand. Just take it all with a more laid back approach today. Some individuals refuse to see anything other than their point of view.......... but the end result. Usually they are basically agreeing but can't bend over a single sentence. And that becomes the ongoing friction sucking more and more in like a black hole.

The DLT crew are doing an excellent job! ILS is doing a great job as well! I for one am glad that they listen to suggestions concerns and accept my as well as others input as well as they do!

Your contributions usually end up in the project on the page or in some instances you become part of the group.

I implore you to work together on the project both on the Atari Hardware and Emulator front... You all have a great deal to offer.

Yeah, I agree. Great job with this project.

If I ever make a process suggestion, its just that. I love the work your doing.

I also love my IDEa card Drac!

[dwhyte]

danwinslow, on Thu Feb 5, 2009 6:37 AM, said:

Come on folks, calm down. This is already a small community, we don't need to force it even smaller. Push your egos back in the bowl and move on.

Actually danwinslow... This just may have brought the community closer... No hard feelings everyone? I can be an asshole from time to time...