Sometimes I can't wait to work on an Atari 2600 game using bB and VbB. Being able to make my own Atari 2600 games, even if I have limitations that assembly language programmers don't have, is one of the greatest things in the world after wishing for so long that I could make my own Atari 2600 games. That's my extra-bouncy, super positive programming personality.
Then when I hit a programming brick wall or the idea well runs dry, I think "What in the hell am I doing? I should be spending this time figuring out how to make more money with my web site, not farting around trying to make Atari 2600 games that about 50 people at the most will ever see." That's one of my "get me the hell out of here" programming personalities.
Then another programming personality pops up and says "You're not just making this game in the hopes that you and other people will have some fun playing the finished product, the process of creating it is good for you. When you're not bashing into brick walls and your idea well is full of juicy ideas, programming with bB and VbB is fun. Even if what you're making has been done to death, it's still your creation. You brought it to life. It might be a derivative piece of crap, but it's your derivative piece of crap. It's your take on the same old sh*t. Remember, there are fun things about this even when it gets too hard and it seems like a waste of time. You are expressing yourself. You are creating. You are fulfilling a dream that you had since you were a teenager."
Those are a few of the programming personalities I have that constantly fight each other in my mind which can cause a short circuit and then nothing gets done. Do you have multiple programming personalities too?
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Do you have multiple programming personalities?
Started by Random Terrain, Jan 27 2009 5:50 PM
21 replies to this topic
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Posted Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:50 PM
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Posted Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:41 PM
I think everybody goes through that to some extent. My second solo cart will be coming out soon and like the first I spent around a year and a half working on it off and on. You have to do it in bursts when you are in the appropriate frame of mind.
This is supposed to be a fun hobby. What nobody tells you is all the fun, interesting, intellectually challenging stuff mostly happens in the first 50% of the game's development. Beyond that, you have a lot of mundane programming and testing and it starts to become like work. If it gets like that you need to take a break and come back fresh and when you have fresh eyes it usually sparks some new ideas and then even the mundane stuff isn't so bad.
This is supposed to be a fun hobby. What nobody tells you is all the fun, interesting, intellectually challenging stuff mostly happens in the first 50% of the game's development. Beyond that, you have a lot of mundane programming and testing and it starts to become like work. If it gets like that you need to take a break and come back fresh and when you have fresh eyes it usually sparks some new ideas and then even the mundane stuff isn't so bad.
Edited by s0c7, Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:44 PM.
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Posted Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:28 PM
I've been having the same problem. It feels like I'm taking it way too seriously, but then again I'm only taking it as seriously as I would have when I was a kid and had the desire in the first place. Back then I was too young and short-sited to consider the video games of the future; I naively assumed I would be making the kind of games I was growing up with. I definitely appreciate that there is still an audience for these games, but I just spent way too much time with my NES back then, my imagination can't do anything with the resources bB has to offer. I really should have given up by now, but I think one time probably pays for all. If you finish one good game, I bet it'll make the headaches and mental wrestling all worth while.
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Posted Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:18 PM
Thanks for the replies.
If more bB users or programmers in general contribute to this thread, maybe we could come up with a a list of things that I could put on a page that we can look at when we need motivation.
If more bB users or programmers in general contribute to this thread, maybe we could come up with a a list of things that I could put on a page that we can look at when we need motivation.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:33 AM
Staying focused is very hard for me when it gets tough.
I usually go and code on another machine until I get an
Idea that might get me past my 'brick wall'. This is why
I am learning O2 programming while waiting on a few
answers to other console coding issues.
I usually go and code on another machine until I get an
Idea that might get me past my 'brick wall'. This is why
I am learning O2 programming while waiting on a few
answers to other console coding issues.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:38 AM
I do what Gorf does, though it might be any number of activities besides coding for things. (Political discussion is one very effective reset device. Go hash it out for a while, and when you return to your project, you often look at it with a fresh mind! So go hammer somebody, or really ask some tough questions. Maybe get a bit pissed off and passionate! It works!)
Sometimes it's good to just let a problem brew for a while. You get all wrapped up in a path, when the truth is that path might be a dead end.
Somebody I respect a whole lot basically said debugging is about challenging everything you know to be true. Ask the tough questions, as if you were the person reviewing a friends code. The answer is almost always some assumption about what's going on that's not correct.
Personally, I find this easier after I look at something I did that has sat for a while.
There is mindset too. It's often frustrating to end up with free time, but not the mood! Usually when I've forced it in this mode, it's ugly. So, I just don't.
It's helpful to have somebody else to work with. Nice to ask a question, bounce an idea off of, debug, coddle you when it's ugly, that kind of thing. The downside is sometimes a bit more pressure to get stuff done.
Finally, with these projects, it's good to do it for your reasons, not expectations others may or may not set. Keeps the pressure down and the fun high! And having fun more of the time means being in the right frame of mind more of the time, and that means stuff gets done more of the time.
...one more thing I've learned. Set your expectations low. It's often easier to get something going, then chip away at improving it, than it is to just knock it out of the park, home run style, first time through. The need to impress, or do something great, often derails the project. That thing might not be possible, or might be too difficult for you, or some other bit. That keeps things from getting done too.
Sometimes it's good to just let a problem brew for a while. You get all wrapped up in a path, when the truth is that path might be a dead end.
Somebody I respect a whole lot basically said debugging is about challenging everything you know to be true. Ask the tough questions, as if you were the person reviewing a friends code. The answer is almost always some assumption about what's going on that's not correct.
Personally, I find this easier after I look at something I did that has sat for a while.
There is mindset too. It's often frustrating to end up with free time, but not the mood! Usually when I've forced it in this mode, it's ugly. So, I just don't.
It's helpful to have somebody else to work with. Nice to ask a question, bounce an idea off of, debug, coddle you when it's ugly, that kind of thing. The downside is sometimes a bit more pressure to get stuff done.
Finally, with these projects, it's good to do it for your reasons, not expectations others may or may not set. Keeps the pressure down and the fun high! And having fun more of the time means being in the right frame of mind more of the time, and that means stuff gets done more of the time.
...one more thing I've learned. Set your expectations low. It's often easier to get something going, then chip away at improving it, than it is to just knock it out of the park, home run style, first time through. The need to impress, or do something great, often derails the project. That thing might not be possible, or might be too difficult for you, or some other bit. That keeps things from getting done too.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:02 AM
potatohead, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:38 AM, said:
...one more thing I've learned. Set your expectations low. It's often easier to get something going, then chip away at improving it, than it is to just knock it out of the park, home run style, first time through. The need to impress, or do something great, often derails the project. That thing might not be possible, or might be too difficult for you, or some other bit. That keeps things from getting done too.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:42 AM
So sort it out this way.
If you had to choose, would you simply not game, if you were not able to play the best of games?
Your answer to this is then your expectation. If it's really high, then you've got to do more than just make hobby projects. Jump in, really set aside some time and be realistic about meeting those expectations. It's really that simple.
The jaw droppers don't come from a little of this and a little of that. They happen because somebody had a good vision, then got after it and realized it as fully as they could.
On the other hand...
If you like gaming, but want to play jaw droppers, it can be an incremental thing. Game first, have fun! Then game better, and have more fun!
There is building tech info and learning how to use it. Then there is weaving that into a game that makes sense.
These are different things! Both require some practice, over the course of many iterations, to refine.
So then, if you are gathering tech weapons to do battle with, but can't somehow weave them into that game you want to see, write more simple games!
This is how you get the weapons! It works the same way as pure tech stuff does. You stumble, stumble again, then get the "I get it!" moment, then repeat, over and over and over...
Part of the fun is the process too. Sure, you might post up some crap. But, it might have potential too. Look at all the goofy stuff 2600land posted! There are some gems in there, and he has lots of game weapons! Tech is where he struggles, but it doesn't matter much in the end, because working stuff means getting people involved and that puts the potential for fun on the table more than tech stuff only does.
Way back when bB first hit, I was stoked! It was gonna be a lot of fun. It was actually!
Technically, it was limited. Compared to what's possible today, it's laughable really. Somebody called it "Combat Kernel" basic, or something like that. Chapped my ass at the time too.
So, what's the first thing many people did?
Just write some games!
Why did they do it?
---> Because that's ALL you could do with it! LOL!!
We had fun, we played each others stuff, and slowly the tech bits came together and the state of things improved. I remember thinking back then it was perfect. There was just enough to do games, but not enough to really focus on graphics and such. It was actually a relief!
I didn't expect that.
Being graphically limiting actually left me in a state where I could very easily program what I wanted, so the game and sound were the focus. Looking back at Ooze, Solar Plexus, GOSUB!, and others, I saw interesting game ideas realized quick. I believe this is because the overall expectations were low enough to put the focus on just doing stuff and having fun with it.
As the tech bits have improved, there are more stalls as people want their bit to show off something new, improved, etc...
Don't get me wrong, that's all good. In fact, it's just great to watch people one up each other over the years, leaving us with really great works on very old machines!!
However, that's not the only goal possible, and that really was the point of my post.
The other one is that if you just do the game part, then it's a running thing. It can be played, shared and talked about. From there, tweaking it to be better is often easier than just building the uber version first off.
Here's some motivation for you Random!
I would be jaw dropping to see your game! Just do it man! Your personality suggests to me that you have some goofy stuff locked in there. I want to play it! So do it.
Dare you
Edit: (last one, I promise)
Your "good game list" is interesting. Why not implement all of those things on a simple project? Just focus on the game element, the flow, playability, start stop, controls, sounds, etc...? You've got a lot invested in thinking about that, so put it out there, not worried about graphics?
People would like to see that. Heck, I always do. This is one of the things I look at and I know I enjoy as much as I do the little graphical goodies.
If you had to choose, would you simply not game, if you were not able to play the best of games?
Your answer to this is then your expectation. If it's really high, then you've got to do more than just make hobby projects. Jump in, really set aside some time and be realistic about meeting those expectations. It's really that simple.
The jaw droppers don't come from a little of this and a little of that. They happen because somebody had a good vision, then got after it and realized it as fully as they could.
On the other hand...
If you like gaming, but want to play jaw droppers, it can be an incremental thing. Game first, have fun! Then game better, and have more fun!
There is building tech info and learning how to use it. Then there is weaving that into a game that makes sense.
These are different things! Both require some practice, over the course of many iterations, to refine.
So then, if you are gathering tech weapons to do battle with, but can't somehow weave them into that game you want to see, write more simple games!
This is how you get the weapons! It works the same way as pure tech stuff does. You stumble, stumble again, then get the "I get it!" moment, then repeat, over and over and over...
Part of the fun is the process too. Sure, you might post up some crap. But, it might have potential too. Look at all the goofy stuff 2600land posted! There are some gems in there, and he has lots of game weapons! Tech is where he struggles, but it doesn't matter much in the end, because working stuff means getting people involved and that puts the potential for fun on the table more than tech stuff only does.
Way back when bB first hit, I was stoked! It was gonna be a lot of fun. It was actually!
Technically, it was limited. Compared to what's possible today, it's laughable really. Somebody called it "Combat Kernel" basic, or something like that. Chapped my ass at the time too.
So, what's the first thing many people did?
Just write some games!
Why did they do it?
---> Because that's ALL you could do with it! LOL!!
We had fun, we played each others stuff, and slowly the tech bits came together and the state of things improved. I remember thinking back then it was perfect. There was just enough to do games, but not enough to really focus on graphics and such. It was actually a relief!
I didn't expect that.
Being graphically limiting actually left me in a state where I could very easily program what I wanted, so the game and sound were the focus. Looking back at Ooze, Solar Plexus, GOSUB!, and others, I saw interesting game ideas realized quick. I believe this is because the overall expectations were low enough to put the focus on just doing stuff and having fun with it.
As the tech bits have improved, there are more stalls as people want their bit to show off something new, improved, etc...
Don't get me wrong, that's all good. In fact, it's just great to watch people one up each other over the years, leaving us with really great works on very old machines!!
However, that's not the only goal possible, and that really was the point of my post.
The other one is that if you just do the game part, then it's a running thing. It can be played, shared and talked about. From there, tweaking it to be better is often easier than just building the uber version first off.
Here's some motivation for you Random!
I would be jaw dropping to see your game! Just do it man! Your personality suggests to me that you have some goofy stuff locked in there. I want to play it! So do it.
Dare you
Edit: (last one, I promise)
Your "good game list" is interesting. Why not implement all of those things on a simple project? Just focus on the game element, the flow, playability, start stop, controls, sounds, etc...? You've got a lot invested in thinking about that, so put it out there, not worried about graphics?
People would like to see that. Heck, I always do. This is one of the things I look at and I know I enjoy as much as I do the little graphical goodies.
Edited by potatohead, Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:05 AM.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:53 AM
I hope, as I add more info to my Personal Game Design Guidelines, that my mind will become less cluttered with bits and pieces of what I like and don't like. All of it will eventually be up on the page.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:42 PM
Who cares what's on the page?
seriously, not a slam on your page
Show me, why they are the right guidelines!
seriously, not a slam on your page
Show me, why they are the right guidelines!
Edited by potatohead, Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:43 PM.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:15 PM
potatohead, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:42 PM, said:
Who cares what's on the page?
seriously, not a slam on your page
Show me, why they are the right guidelines!
seriously, not a slam on your page
Show me, why they are the right guidelines!
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potatohead
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:24 PM
I was being facetious!
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:25 PM
potatohead, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:24 PM, said:
I was being facetious!
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:45 PM
If I remember correctly J.R.R. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings for pretty much his whole life. Even though we only see the published parts there was a lot of fumbling around and afterthoughts he had due to writing spurts he had which he quoted as working in the middle of the night for 3-4 months then leaving it for years before picking it up again..which lead to a lot of re-writing.
If you look at it like this then. The seed idea is usually the most productive..followed by inner complexity which is less productive because your already past the seed stage. As far as programming goes I can see similarities.. being you write your game idea and start coding, eventually hit a brick wall maybe from lack of direction and need to get away from it to try other things while your mind looks for a solution. Even if the project is finished we may still feel like we could have done better..after all I'm assuming the lot of us using bB are not getting paid for our programs so they are personal games and we are our worst critics..
Well I never said I was Freud..but there's my take
If you look at it like this then. The seed idea is usually the most productive..followed by inner complexity which is less productive because your already past the seed stage. As far as programming goes I can see similarities.. being you write your game idea and start coding, eventually hit a brick wall maybe from lack of direction and need to get away from it to try other things while your mind looks for a solution. Even if the project is finished we may still feel like we could have done better..after all I'm assuming the lot of us using bB are not getting paid for our programs so they are personal games and we are our worst critics..
Well I never said I was Freud..but there's my take
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:15 PM
I'm just a bB user who has some fun playing around with bB a bit...
What really keeps me from starting to learn programming is the fact that i can't focus on one thing for very long and i also get distracted very easy.
I started with a scrolling game a few months ago but i found out that it's probably better to keep that for later and start with something much simpler for a first game.
So i guess i'll start with something as simple as a Pong-varation in bB. Yep, this has been done many times before and i'm sure it's gonna become a boring crap game no one will enjoy playing...
But i think it will help me to learn the very basics of programming and game design. I see it like this - when you build a house you start with the basement and not with the roof...
After getting some more experience with bB i can try to bring some of the better ideas i have to life...
Even if i'll never finish a game i've got nothing to lose... I hardly watch any TV because most of the stuff they show nowadays is boring or dull and annoying crap.
So instead of sitting in front of the TV like a Zombie i'll play around with bB and at least use my brain cells a little bit...
And here's another dead simple game (even simpler than Pong!) that would be a nice beginners project... Can you guess what "classic" game this is?
What really keeps me from starting to learn programming is the fact that i can't focus on one thing for very long and i also get distracted very easy.
I started with a scrolling game a few months ago but i found out that it's probably better to keep that for later and start with something much simpler for a first game.
So i guess i'll start with something as simple as a Pong-varation in bB. Yep, this has been done many times before and i'm sure it's gonna become a boring crap game no one will enjoy playing...
But i think it will help me to learn the very basics of programming and game design. I see it like this - when you build a house you start with the basement and not with the roof...
After getting some more experience with bB i can try to bring some of the better ideas i have to life...
Even if i'll never finish a game i've got nothing to lose... I hardly watch any TV because most of the stuff they show nowadays is boring or dull and annoying crap.
So instead of sitting in front of the TV like a Zombie i'll play around with bB and at least use my brain cells a little bit...
And here's another dead simple game (even simpler than Pong!) that would be a nice beginners project... Can you guess what "classic" game this is?
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:25 PM
If that's a version of Surround, I was just playing it with somebody on the PS2 a couple of days ago. I was thinking it would be nice to make a version with no blank lines that was easier on the eyes and had sound that wasn't so annoying.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:46 PM
Random Terrain, on Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:25 AM, said:
If that's a version of Surround, I was just playing it with somebody on the PS2 a couple of days ago. I was thinking it would be nice to make a version with no blank lines that was easier on the eyes and had sound that wasn't so annoying.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:49 PM
I've done surround in superchip 32x31 res, I figured I could include it as a hidden minigame if I ever finish anything to hide it in.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:24 PM
Random Terrain, on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:50 PM, said:
Do you have multiple programming personalities too?
Yes. No.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:33 PM
Impaler_26, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:46 PM, said:
Random Terrain, on Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:25 AM, said:
If that's a version of Surround, I was just playing it with somebody on the PS2 a couple of days ago. I was thinking it would be nice to make a version with no blank lines that was easier on the eyes and had sound that wasn't so annoying.
Warring worms?
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yuppicide
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:40 PM
I would say I'm a bit like you.
I have ideas.. many. I'm all excited to get things done, but if I can't do what I want then I'm upset/angry and won't program again for awhile. Some of what I need to do seems very simple, but I can't get it to work.
I have ideas.. many. I'm all excited to get things done, but if I can't do what I want then I'm upset/angry and won't program again for awhile. Some of what I need to do seems very simple, but I can't get it to work.
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Posted Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:44 PM
rpgfaker, on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:33 AM, said:
Impaler_26, on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:46 PM, said:
Random Terrain, on Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:25 AM, said:
If that's a version of Surround, I was just playing it with somebody on the PS2 a couple of days ago. I was thinking it would be nice to make a version with no blank lines that was easier on the eyes and had sound that wasn't so annoying.
Warring worms?
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