116 replies to this topic

[108 Stars]

I think it is nearly impossible to tell exact numbers unless you counted the units yourself. For example Sega is notorious for not delivering official sales numbers. That is one reason why the numbers about Mega Drive sales you find in the internet vary by several millions.

I do not doubt Curt´s numbers as being as well researched as it is possible; yet they are not neccessarily the ultimate truth.

I think subjective opinion is in a way justified as an argument.
I have not been there, but looking at the superior audio/visual quality of the SMS (a factor very important to initially gat attention from potential customers) as well as the stronger coverage in the press the SMS enjoyed it is extremelay hard to believe the Atari 7800 has outsold the SMS. And don´t forget the licenses; while Atari had to rely mostly on its own, aged intellectual proberty, the SMS offered games to popular franchises of the time. Ghostbusters, Spider-Man, Alf, Rambo, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Back to the Future, Moonwalker, WWF, Flintstones and the Simpsons. These are names that were very popular at the time and guaranteed sales even when the quality is low. And Sega´s arcade hits; arcade´s were huge, and Atari´s best times in the arcades were over already. So the SMS got stuff like Space Harrier, Afterburner, Out Run, Golden Axe, Shinobi, Shadow Dancer. As much as it suffered from many game´s Nintendo exclusivity, the SMS was still much better off than the 7800 regarding big names.
Mind you, I don´t neccessarily say it was the other way around; but the very best I can believe is for the 7800 to have sold about as much as the SMS, maybe more at first with declining sales later while the SMS remained more stable. The thing that really is responsible for Atari´s bigger market share must be the Atari 2600, being a great and affordable first console for smaller kids.

[Retro Rogue]

108 Stars, on Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:58 PM, said:

I think it is nearly impossible to tell exact numbers unless you counted the units yourself. For example Sega is notorious for not delivering official sales numbers. That is one reason why the numbers about Mega Drive sales you find in the internet vary by several millions. I do not doubt Curt´s numbers as being as well researched as it is possible; yet they are not neccessarily the ultimate truth.

You're mistaken - those aren't Curt's numbers and they weren't researched. Those are actual internal files directly from Atari Corp.'s own mainframe system. The sales numbers are Atari Corp.'s own internal ones for sales of the system in the US, by a per account breakdown. Not for a public report, and not from a newspaper article, and not combined from anywhere else.

[kool kitty89]

S1500, on Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:56 AM, said:

Atari really didn't want to get involved in RPGs, did they? But hey, why not buy our new system so you can play Pac Man again!

Aren't you forgetting the Ultima Series (not limited to those either, particularly if you boraden the definition of "RPG" to encompass some adventure games and such), the first 4 Ultima games were released durring both Atari Inc. and Atari Corp years. (on 8-bit and ST systems) In fact, I think Ultima I was the first RPG to be released on any computer/game console. (originally on Apple II, with the 8-bit Atari being the first other platform in 1982)

Bill_Loguidice, on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:38 AM, said:

That's probably all of Atari's systems (2600jr, XEGS, 7800), though, versus Sega's one, plus, that's 1988. I believe the Master System was on the market through the early 90's at least a year or two after the 7800 petered off. In any case, I bet a large portion of the Atari figure was the 2600jr, followed in a distant second by the 7800, followed in a barely there third by the XEGS.

The SMS was much weaker and had a much shorter lifespan and smaller library of games in the US compared to Europe (Japan was about as bad, relatively speaking), it did exceptionally well in Europe, I think actually outselling the NES (no solid figures from Sega though AFIK). I think the SMS was discontinued in 1992 in the US, the Same year the Atari 2600 and 7800 were discontinued in US, the SMS II hardly made it into the US market and I beleive Sonic The Hedgehog was the last game released in the US. (and is quite rare -and sought by collectors for a hefty price) I think both the 7800 and 2600 Jr continued to be sold in Europe for a good bit longer (the 2600 perhaps longer than 7800), but that's a different market, and known for hanging on to old hardware well into obsolesence. (ie 8-bit computers like C64, Amstrad CPC, and ZX Spectrum)

The 2600 Jr. may not have made that big of a contribution to US sales, or the XEGS for that matter (assuming they were counted), but that's just speculation without actual sales figures.

Sega did a pretty poor job of marketing the SMS in the US, Tonka probably no better (probably didn't hurt either though). Atari still had a significnt name and a fair amout of people apparently did know about the 7800 in spite of limited advertizing. The affordable price combined with 2600 compatibility would sertainly have helped it as well. (I have heard some comments that the 7800 may have actually been more popular in Europe -at least relatively speaking; but of course that would still put it behind both Nintendo and Sega in that region)


Now by the early '90s, Sega was most certainly outselling Atari's game consoles, but that's obvious given the success of the Genesis, 1989 I'd be more suspect about because the Genesis didn't have much chance to sell and hadn't yet picked up either. (from an interview with Katz, the console had sold around 500k units in the first year, picking up significantly around th etime the SNES was released -not reaching 1M in the first year was apparently why Japanese management replaced Katz with Kalinske in 1991 -but that's another issue)

Conjecture, but I think there's a good chance the SMS never got ahead of 7800 anual sales during their respective life spans. (of which I think the 7800s was a tad longer with a slightly earlier release)

[108 Stars]

Well, this is almost a religous dispute.

Fact is, for as long as we don´t get relieable Sega-figures (which is probably not gonna happen)we can only speculate. I am aware of the little success the SMS had; yet I think that the big brand names on its games, the biggercoverage in the media and the better gfx eventually helped it outsell the 7800 even in the USA (if only by a small margin), and that the advantage from Atari stems from the additional 2600-sales.
You believe the low price, known name and head start of Atari were enough to outsell the SMS especially at first but that the time was not enough for Sega to make up for the initial advantage of the Atari-name.

In the end, we can´t tell for sure, and no matter what, we are definately talking about a rather small difference anyway.

Overall, it is sad that Nintendo´s monopoly killed both systems in the USA. Seeing what great games the SMS eventually got that never reached US-shores (games far beyond what was seen during the console´s US-lifespan), one can only wonder what the Atari 7800 could have pulled off in turn if there had been a market for it that granted it a longer life.

One thing in general I do not like about your statement; and that is Europe generally sticking to obsolete systems for longer.

First of all I believe a system is never really obsolete; you´re on AtariAge, this place is proof enough.

And the Amstrad CPC and C64 definately had their right to exist until around 1990; I´d rather say in the US older systems were dropped too early. While the USA went crazy about the NES, the C64 was still technically the superior machine and had lots of excellent games still coming. It was popular throughout the 80ies here because it offered the best value for a moderate price. Once the C64 had really reached it´s limits they switched to the Amiga; by then that computer had become affordable.

There is nothing "obsolete" about a system just because it is not a new release. It´s the quality and number of the games produced for it that justifies sticking with it.


P.S: About Atari and RPGs....the Ultima games were released on Atari systems, yet Atari never published them themselves. You can´t judge a company´s thoughts on a genre by what independant 3rd parties do.

Edited by 108 Stars, Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:21 PM.

[kool kitty89]

I don't really have a personal stake int he obsolecence issue, I've always liked old stuff, tech or otherwise (and history in general), it's the main reason I'm here. Most of the discussions I've particupated in pertain to things a good deal older than myself. And outside of that, my family tended to get game console very late into a generation. (SNES in 1995/96 N64 1999, GC wasn't too late in 2003- PC was always pretty up to date though) Still, as computers, if nothing else, those systems were quite long in the tooth. The Famicom/NES was getting pretty old by 1989 (1983 tech), the SMS (arguably) wasn't much better in that respect plus the sound hardware had always been a bit weak, (outside of Japanese models with YM2413), granted the Atari ST wasn't really any better, but that;s another complaint common to both systems. (not that there wasn't good soundign stuff on SMS, but in general the PSG was very limiting, really basic, it was OK for ColecoVision back in 1982, better than TIA, but probably not better than a part of TIAs)

That the C64 is superior to NES as a game system is also highly debatable, just as some argue the Atari 8-bit computers are superior to the C64. (no comment personally, other than C64 having a much more limited color palette than either of the other 2)

Also, a lot of those promoted game you mention were ports paralling Genesis/MD releases, many of which never even made it to the SMS in US, Moonwalker for Instance, Ecco made it and the rather uncommon Sonic The Hedgehog (that alone should be an indication of how the games were selling by the end ~1991). Hence why many North American SMS collectors tend to import from Europe. Of course, both Japan and North America did get many of these unrelease 8-bit games on the Game Gear instead, along with others, not released on the SMS at all.

Edited by kool kitty89, Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:25 AM.

[108 Stars]

I am just talking about the US too. In Europe the SMS was so successful the winner is a no-brainer, the debateable part is the US.
The games I listed were all released in the USA afaik, including SMS-Moonwalker. I only listed those games that were released before the death of the US-SMS.
Of course they were overshadowed by Genesis-versions, yet on the small system market I believe that it made a difference; for kids whose parents would not pay big money for a Genny, they could still get the games that were hot on the cheaper system. I just find it likely that kids would rather pick the system that has Mickey Mouse and Rambo instead of Scrapyard Dog and Commando resulting in the SMS . This must have had an effect the longer the SMS was available.

For all that is known, while not exactly a hit, Tonka had managed to get the SMS a small, but stable, profitable market share.

And I honestly believe that while the 7800 might have been the better seller at first, time (and the releases of big licensed games) worked in favour of the SMS.

Sonic 1 was a special case btw; it was just imported from Europe in limited quantities, along with Strider and Spider-Man, those were the last releases in the US afaik. The truly impressive era of the SMS only kind of started with Sonic, so sadly the USA missed the best quality-stuff.

About the C64/NES thing: What I mean to say is that the US abandoning one system in favor of another does not neccessarily declare the abandoned one obsolete. The NES never was a step forward in technology, rather a step backward. So the craze about the NES was as much support of an "obsolete" system as was the continued support of the C64 here.

[Bill_Loguidice]

Obviously without hard numbers it's impossible for any of us to be accurate, but based on the SMS's presence in stores, presence in magazines, presence in television ads, third party support and overall library, again, I just don't see how it's possible for the Atari 7800 to have outsold the SMS on its own except perhaps in the first year or so of the two system's existences.

I would imagine the final breakdown in the US would have gone something like this from late 1985 to the early 90's:

1 - NES
2 - SMS
3 - Atari 2600jr
4 - Atari 7800
5 - Intv System III
6 - Atari XEGS
7 - Leftovers (ColecoVision, Atari 5200
(5 and 6 might be flipped)

Again, that's just based on what I perceived in stores and other areas (total advertising, total software base, etc.).

[kool kitty89]

108 Stars, on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:36 AM, said:

About the C64/NES thing: What I mean to say is that the US abandoning one system in favor of another does not neccessarily declare the abandoned one obsolete. The NES never was a step forward in technology, rather a step backward. So the craze about the NES was as much support of an "obsolete" system as was the continued support of the C64 here.

I agree there, the NES wasn't realy cutting endge hardware wise when it was launched nationwide in 1986, quite the contrary, but it was a decent system with lots of decent games and increasingly large support (and good marketing of course), rather like the C64 in that respect. (and the NES was pretty long in the tooth when by the time support tapered off, then again, that happens with all the popular game systems, especially VCS) Too bad the Atari 8-bit computers weren't among the C64, Amstrad CPC, and ZX Spectrum in terms of popularity in Europe, I know it was still supported, but from what I understand it, market penetration wasn't anywhere near the Amsctad or Speccy, let alone C64. Would have been intestering to have seen games continuing into that late period though.

As to the SMS and 7800, I suppose the SMS could have gotten ahead sometime around 1989/90, 7800 sales started declining in 1989 (from over 1 million annually in 87 and 88 to 600 some thousand in 1989 and under 100k in 1990), but I really don't have anything to compare with that ont he SMS side. (even anecdotal) Perhaps Genesis sales even boosed if for a short time. It must have been doing something to merit Sega even bothering to take it back from Tonka and release the SMS II and the last few games, still sales must have been pretty curtailed by then.


Do you think the 7800 was selling behind the 2600 Jr? 7800 prices certainly veried a lot, but at least some I've seen show the 7800 a $90 nest to the $50, so still relatively inexpensive, but perhaps the Jr. really was more attractive as a budget system.

[108 Stars]

I couldn´t tell if the Atari 2600jr or the 7800 sold better. I can only speak for my personal experiences in Germany, and say when I was in elemental school, around 1987, many kids had the 2600jr. I only learned of the older 2600 models many years later, I really only saw the small, black jr with the metallic stripe...the jr model was everywhere.

The 7800 on the other hand was advertised in the catalogues that came with the 2600, and I think Toys´r us carried them...but some other stores I visited frequently did not, and I never knew anyone who owned a 7800. The same happened later with the Lynx, it was practically invisible.

Now while the US was in a different situation, I guess it might still be a metter of who bought the system. I could imagine that the similar look of game boxes, the system itself and the availability of many games on both systems might have led unknowing parents to underestimate the difference between the systems and just pick the cheaper one. Or possibly the poor people picked up lots of 2600; I suppose there must have been many people who could never afford other consoles before, and if you must watch every Dollar, the difference between 50 and 90 can make the decision easy.

I can´t even guess if the 2600jr sold more in the USA than the 7800...but I am sure it sold a noteworthy number at least. It was just a perfect cheap product for young kids.

About the Atari 8-bits:
Indeed, these played a minor role compared to Commodore, Sinclair and Amstrad. Ironically later on, in the Tramiel-era with the Atari ST Europe became quite a stronghold for Atari (as for Commodore), and the company gained a loyal following as you now see with the many AA-members from Europe. This is probably thanks to the home computer market remaining dominant for longer here, while the consoles Jack Tramiel showed so little interest in had already conquered the US again.

[kool kitty89]

108 Stars, on Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:00 PM, said:

I couldn´t tell if the Atari 2600jr or the 7800 sold better. I can only speak for my personal experiences in Germany, and say when I was in elemental school, around 1987, many kids had the 2600jr. I only learned of the older 2600 models many years later, I really only saw the small, black jr with the metallic stripe...the jr model was everywhere.

The 7800 on the other hand was advertised in the catalogues that came with the 2600, and I think Toys´r us carried them...but some other stores I visited frequently did not, and I never knew anyone who owned a 7800. The same happened later with the Lynx, it was practically invisible.

Now while the US was in a different situation, I guess it might still be a metter of who bought the system. I could imagine that the similar look of game boxes, the system itself and the availability of many games on both systems might have led unknowing parents to underestimate the difference between the systems and just pick the cheaper one. Or possibly the poor people picked up lots of 2600; I suppose there must have been many people who could never afford other consoles before, and if you must watch every Dollar, the difference between 50 and 90 can make the decision easy.

I can´t even guess if the 2600jr sold more in the USA than the 7800...but I am sure it sold a noteworthy number at least. It was just a perfect cheap product for young kids.

Huh, I wonder if any of that has to do with the VCS not being pushed as hard in Europe compared to the US in the warner years (not sure if that's true, but I recall sometthing like that). That certainly could have made the Jr. more attractive, a cheap console with large library of games, and without as large of a used market as there would have been in the US for old 2600s.

That's an interesting comment on the Lynx, really shows how talking about "Europe" as a region in general is often a gross oversimplification (same could be said about the US in some respects, but not nearly as distinctly). That's quite a different picture in Germany than the impression I got from the situation in the UK in this discussion:

The_Laird, on Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:13 AM, said:

You have to remember that while Atari's reputation was somewhat tarnished in the US it wasn't in Europe. The ST had been a massive success and had outsold the Amiga for many years and the Lynx had proved very popular too with major stores like Game (UK's biggest game store) still carrying the machine when the Jag came out and hell even the 2600 was still going into the early 90's with a very strong presence as a budget machine in places like Toys R Us.

UK retailers liked Atari and actually they made a massive mistake not getting the Jag out in numbers over here. They either should have made sure they had enough stock for the Pal release or got the machine out over here first as it could have sold some significant numbers if it had. By the time UK retailers (and I am sure European ones too) got enough units the interest in the machine had waned because of the mega circus over the Playstation and the start of the Anti-Atari Jag hate campaign in the gaming press had started.

I can remember in the games store I worked in at the time (I already had my Jag at this point thanks to Telegames) we got a massive delivery for our pre xmas shopping day and all we got in it was 5 Jaguars!!! We had a waiting list of well over 25 people and everytime we got any in we sold them that morning. The company actually got so pissed off that they told us to start pushing the 3D0 and 32X instead as they had such a massive inventory of those!

I remember reading somewhere that Atari sold all their European shipments in record time, you would think this might had alerted the Tramiels to something wouldn't you?

As I recall, in some other discussions (over at the Sega-16 forums), Germany was mentioned more of a Nintendo stronghold as well (in terms of popularity of NES, and SNES in particular compared to Master System and Mega Drive). I know the NES was particularly weakened in the UK having a later release than most of the rest of Europe.

Quote

About the Atari 8-bits:
Indeed, these played a minor role compared to Commodore, Sinclair and Amstrad. Ironically later on, in the Tramiel-era with the Atari ST Europe became quite a stronghold for Atari (as for Commodore), and the company gained a loyal following as you now see with the many AA-members from Europe. This is probably thanks to the home computer market remaining dominant for longer here, while the consoles Jack Tramiel showed so little interest in had already conquered the US again.

I guess popularity of the ST didn't really contribute toward bolstering the EX line.
What console are you refering to in that last statement?

[108 Stars]

kool kitty89, on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:31 PM, said:

Huh, I wonder if any of that has to do with the VCS not being pushed as hard in Europe compared to the US in the warner years (not sure if that's true, but I recall sometthing like that). That certainly could have made the Jr. more attractive, a cheap console with large library of games, and without as large of a used market as there would have been in the US for old 2600s.

While the 2600 and other consoles were released in the eraly 80ies, for all I know Germany just never saw a real boom in them at that time; not like in the USA, where they were really hot. This may once again be a result on the bad standing of arcades in Germany. video games in arcade form were, like Casinos with black jack machines etc, always limited to adults. Kids would not be allowed to enter them. And so they were usually dark, smelly places and nothing mainstream. So witout the popularity of Pacman & co, it was probably harder for Atari to reach the masses.

kool kitty89, on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:31 PM, said:

That's an interesting comment on the Lynx, really shows how talking about "Europe" as a region in general is often a gross oversimplification (same could be said about the US in some respects, but not nearly as distinctly). That's quite a different picture in Germany than the impression I got from the situation in the UK in this discussion: ...

As I recall, in some other discussions (over at the Sega-16 forums), Germany was mentioned more of a Nintendo stronghold as well (in terms of popularity of NES, and SNES in particular compared to Master System and Mega Drive). I know the NES was particularly weakened in the UK having a later release than most of the rest of Europe.

Indeed it is somewhat complicated in Europe. I never knew the Lynx had success in the UK, interesting to know. It was definately not important here. I remember a few commercials between Saturday morning cartoons for the Lynx II; I had never even known of the Lynx I before. But even then, most stores did not carry the Lynx, and if they did, they did not neccessarily have one available for people to try out. My shoolmates and I were very much into games, but nobody had a Lynx or even talked about it. It was mostly GameBoy, and some GameGear mixed in. Atari was popular, but the handhelds were especially aimed at kids; and Nintendo and Sega did a hell lot more to reach them!

And indeed Germany was Nintendo-land while the UK were Sega kingdom. The Nintendo-love did not really start with the NES here; Sega brought the SMS here first and it was also supported longer, so I guess the NES never was quite as successful. But it started with the GemeBoy. Every kid wanted one; and Nintendo supported that with Club Nintendo.
What´s Club Nintendo?
Imagine Nintendo Power, which was influential in the US afaik, but for free. Every GameBoy and the games had a little postcard you could send to the Club, and you would get a membership card and the Club Nintendo magazine for free. In it what you would expect: exciting, enthuisiastic reports on new games, tips, happy readers´ letters, comic-strips with Nintendo heroes...
Later on you didn´t even have to register anymore but the magazine was available for free in stores. That was a huge marketing-coup.
And of course the cartoons you saw in the USA, like the SMB Super Show, Zelda or Captain N were shown here as well; another great advertisement.
So they conquered Germany much like they conquered the USA; just that it really started with the GameBoy here.
Sega had no free magazine and only a lousy Sonic cartoon from 1994 on; Atari barely even had commercials and we were not really aware of them. You could say they were not even players in the game for us.
So when the SNES was released in 1992, the Mega Drive did not stand a chance. It had solid sales and was not unpopular,but the SNES was on another level.

Quote

I guess popularity of the ST didn't really contribute toward bolstering the EX line.
What console are you refering to in that last statement?

No, the ST could not save them; after all, it was getting old, the Amiga had already established itself as the better game machine, and the new stuff like Portfolio or Falcon never had the same success as the ST did.

With my last statement I mean that in the USA, the NES had revived the console market after the console crash and the time that came after, where gaming was more or less a home computer thing. The Genesis was a success to, and to a limited degree the TG-16. Jack Tramiel had the chance but declined publishing both NES and Genesis in the USA; he had shelved the 7800 in 1984 when it had a chance; he did not care about video games, he cared about computers for useful things.
In Europe, the crash had never happened; consoles had not been that huge to begin with. From the early 80ies on people in the UK played on their Sinclair-machines, in Germany on the C64, in France on the CPC. And as described before, the NES did not arrive with much of an impact. It was not spectacular and regarded as kiddie-play, while "serious" gamers sticked with their computers. Consoles were looked down at. I remember a gaming magazine that had a very small news bit about the NES release, saying just shortly how Nintendo was now doing a "revival of the old Atari-game". Nobody took a console serious.
So the NES made the consoles the centre of gaming again in the USA, but in Europe it was still all about homecomputers. So it was easier for Tramiel´s ST to find a market here; computer freaks and the many gamers alike would want the next big computer instead of some childish console.

The true rise of the consoles here came with the demise of Amiga and Atari ST in the early 90ies. The SNES was released and offered more spectacular graphics, and the MD was every bit as good as the Amiga, but with stronger software support from the USA and Japan.

The ST and Amiga had profited from that Nintendo had not come with nearly the same power as in the USA; it saved them a market where they could be not only work machines, but also the no.1 gaming machines for a few years. But they did not have anything to keep that advantage forever. The PC was getting more affordable and offered decent games. Quite a few of the loyal homecomputer users even trusted their old favourite company when they had to switch to a console because no good new computers with cool games were coming from them anymore; they bought Amiga CD³² and Jaguar, only to learn that Atari´s and Commodore´s dominance in homecomputer business was meaningless in the console war.

I think had it not been for Europeans playing mainly on homecomputers for so long, Atari might have gone belly-up even earlier (and Commodore as well).

Edited by 108 Stars, Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:06 AM.

[kool kitty89]

[quote name='108 Stars' date='Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:02 PM' timestamp='1258783377' post='1882564']
Later on you didn´t even have to register anymore but the magazine was available for free in stores. That was a huge marketing-coup.
And of course the cartoons you saw in the USA, like the SMB Super Show, Zelda or Captain N were shown here as well; another great advertisement.
So they conquered Germany much like they conquered the USA; just that it really started with the GameBoy here.
Sega had no free magazine and only a lousy Sonic cartoon from 1994 on; Atari barely even had commercials and we were not really aware of them. You could say they were not even players in the game for us.[/quote]

That's really interesting with the Club Nintendo. Heh, I remember the Sonic cartoons fondly (well, the more cheaply animated weekday Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog specifically, I didn't much watch the other), don't remember much of the Nintendo toons, mostly because of my age (except SMW show which came a bit later), other than SMW I don't really like the Nintendo shows really, weird that I ended up getting attached to Sonic since all we had at home was Nintendo stuff. (also intestering that DiC animated/produced all those Nintendo and Sonic toons)


[quote]No, the ST could not save them; after all, it was getting old, the Amiga had already established itself as the better game machine, and the new stuff like Portfolio or Falcon never had the same success as the ST did.[/quote]

Sorry, I think you misunderstood the context of my ST comment, I meant that early intrest in the ST didn't really help the Atari 8-bit (XE) line get any more attention.

[quote]With my last statement I mean that in the USA, the NES had revived the console market after the console crash and the time that came after, where gaming was more or less a home computer thing. The Genesis was a success to, and to a limited degree the TG-16. Jack Tramiel had the chance but declined publishing both NES and Genesis in the USA; he had shelved the 7800 in 1984 when it had a chance; he did not care about video games, he cared about computers for useful things.
In Europe, the crash had never happened; consoles had not been that huge to begin with. From the early 80ies on people in the UK played on their Sinclair-machines, in Germany on the C64, in France on the CPC. And as described before, the NES did not arrive with much of an impact. It was not spectacular and regarded as kiddie-play, while "serious" gamers sticked with their computers. Consoles were looked down at. I remember a gaming magazine that had a very small news bit about the NES release, saying just shortly how Nintendo was now doing a "revival of the old Atari-game". Nobody took a console serious.
So the NES made the consoles the centre of gaming again in the USA, but in Europe it was still all about homecomputers. So it was easier for Tramiel´s ST to find a market here; computer freaks and the many gamers alike would want the next big computer instead of some childish console.

[quote]The true rise of the consoles here came with the demise of Amiga and Atari ST in the early 90ies. The SNES was released and offered more spectacular graphics, and the MD was every bit as good as the Amiga, but with stronger software support from the USA and Japan.[/quote]

I think many would consider the Amiga's sound hardware a good bit better than Genesis though. (personal taste, but for the majority it's true, though some people do like FM systhesis, I like both depending on the case, and the FM chip in Mega Drive was more capable than the PC's Adlib/SoundBlaster -prior to SB-16)

[quote]The ST and Amiga had profited from that Nintendo had not come with nearly the same power as in the USA; it saved them a market where they could be not only work machines, but also the no.1 gaming machines for a few years. But they did not have anything to keep that advantage forever. The PC was getting more affordable and offered decent games. Quite a few of the loyal homecomputer users even trusted their old favourite company when they had to switch to a console because no good new computers with cool games were coming from them anymore; they bought Amiga CD³² and Jaguar, only to learn that Atari´s and Commodore´s dominance in homecomputer business was meaningless in the console war.

I think had it not been for Europeans playing mainly on homecomputers for so long, Atari might have gone belly-up even earlier (and Commodore as well).
[/quote]

The Amiga and ST had competition coming from 2 directions, pressure from gaining popularity of PCs, and game consoles as well. (plus PC games becoming more competitive) It seems like Commodore and Atari focused more on competing with eachother more than the outside competition. Atari "catching up" to Amiga with the STe, and both not offering 32-bit platforms or an equivelent to VGA to compete with rising standards on PC. (and Amiga never did really upgrade the sound, while Atari went a step up with STe, and finally well beyond with Falcon, albet a good bit too late, lust like the A1200) Limited expandablility seem to have been a problem as well. Both Commodore and Atari seem to have a big broblem with management, particularly towards the end. (well, in Atari's case, mostly after Jack steppped down and Sam was put in charge, makes you wonder what things might have been like if Jack had somehow remained president of Commodore)
But I digress.

I've read some things that pointed to the CD32 being well received and selleing pretty well when it was released, but Commodore was in so much trouble financially, they couldn't produce enough to meet demand, there was the snafu leading to a US release being blocked, and then Commodore's bankruptcy...

And the Jaguar, so many managment issues and other bad decisions (the engineers did a bang up job with what they had to work with though, pretty amazing given the circumstances), but that's another discussion I've been actively involved in. There's no way they could have matched Sony of course, but I personally think they could hav managed much more successfully than turned out. (Sega really screwed themselves around that time with 32x then Saturn, maybe making a bit of an opening for Atari, especially in Europe -probably some countries -like UK- in particular)

It seems like Atari didn't push the Jag as much in Europe as they should have for one thing (they'd even planned to have pre-release units available in London and Paris, but scrapped that for a US only release), but again that's another issue.

Putting as much work into the Panther as they did was part of that mess as well. (hey, I managed something pertinent to the thread topic )

[kool kitty89]

I forgot to address something:
It's a common misconception, but Tramiel never had a chandce with Nintendo, that was out of the picture by the time he was in it, the whole Coleco-Donkey Kong issue came up before Ray Kassar even lest Atari in 1983, and was most likelt an excuse to buy more time with Nintendo negotiations. (with which which Atari had been attempting to secure Nintendo's rights and lock them out of the US market -I think at some point Kassar realized that wasn't possible, do opted for delaying Nintendo as much as possible, which may have worked given the NES didn't come out until late 1985, and only in a test market then -granted the crash played a big role in that as well)
In any case, I beleive negotiations broke down after Kassar was replaced by James Morgan in summer of 1983 iirc, by which time Nintendo got fed up with delays and eventually decided to look elsewhere for a route into a US release. (another year passing before Warner would sell Atari consumer to Tramel Technologies Ltd.)

On top of that, the issue with the 7800 and Tramiel is often misinterpreted as well, part of it was him wanting to sell it cheaply (driving a very hard bargain), not so much "disliking video games," but the combination of ongoing negotiaions with GCC and all th eissues of restructuring his new company took a while to straighten out. (they did manage to get the 2600 Jr out by mid 1985, prior to the NES even test marketing, supposedly to good sales -Michael catz suggesting that sales were mainly limited by production constraints)

[Retro Rogue]

108 Stars, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:02 AM, said:

Jack Tramiel had the chance but declined publishing both NES and Genesis in the USA;

What are you talking about?

Quote

he had shelved the 7800 in 1984 when it had a chance; he did not care about video games, he cared about computers for useful things.

Actually no, as was gone over in another thread, all projects were frozen after the takeover. However, by the end of July, video game operations were started up again and specifically work on the Jr. They hit the ground running with plans for the video game portion, because they were counting on that to keep the company afloat. Likewise the 7800 was simply a casualty of an unpaid bill between GCC and Warner/Atari for the MARIA chip. When Jack bought Consumer and folded it in to TTL to form Atari Corp., Warner held on to the still open accounts. There was a lot of legal wrangling over the next year to hash out what Jack needed to pay or what Warner needed to pay. In order for Jack to own the MARIA, he wound up paying GCC in Spring of '95. Finally after pressure from Warner to move along with it, the 7800 picked up steam again a few months later and was being promoted publicly again by January of '86 at the CES in Vegas. Also, reviews for the 7800 when it was introduced at the Summer '84 CES were not that great, including complaints of yet another Atari console and the sparse and already seen library of games. If anything if the 7800 had been nationally released then, it probably would have been a casualty of the market.

Quote

I think had it not been for Europeans playing mainly on homecomputers for so long, Atari might have gone belly-up even earlier (and Commodore as well).

Atari Corp.'s turn for the worse actually started around '87-'88 after Jack retired and left the company to Sam. Consistent losses and shrinking of Atari Corp. from there on until Sam had the heart attack and Jack came out of retirement to put the company out of it's misery.

[DracIsBack]

Bill_Loguidice, on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

based on the SMS's presence in stores

So you did a statistically significant survey of stores across the country, in major markets to come to this conclusion? Or are you falling into the trap of "my personal neighbourhood had it this way so it must be the same everywhere"-itis that plagues these forums?

Quote

, presence in magazines, presence in television ads, third party support and overall library, again, I just don't see how it's possible for the Atari 7800 to have outsold the SMS on its own except perhaps in the first year or so of the two system's existences.

The points about the ads are good, though it's important not to think about it purely in terms of television. IIRC, Atari spent a decent amount on retail promotion in lieu of television ads. And my experience has taught me that ads in flyers like "best buy" can move as much or more software than ads in magazines. Third party, I wouldn't brag about as the SMS really only had a couple of third party games in the US. I owned the SMS II and the 7800 and both had few third party games.

As for overall library, there's another consideration - the 7800 could play 2600 games out of the box. There were a PILE of 2600 games out there, in terms of the new market, the used market and people who already owned the games. The 2600 was *THE* system of the previous generation and I would suspect that many 7800 systems got sold because it was 'more advanced' but could play 2600 games out of the box.

The SMS had a larger library (with big name Sega arcade games being its draw) but there were still less than 100 games on it, IIRC. Most of its games actually came out in Europe, after it was killed in North America. Like the 7800, once the Genesis came out, it became harder to get SMS games in North America. Who here was able to buy a commercially released "Sonic The Hedgehog" or "Spider-Man" on the North American shelves? I saw them in magazines but found it impossible to find them in stores or order them.

There's also 'brand equity'. At the time, Atari was substantially more well known that Sega (again, due to the 2600) whereas the SMS was Sega's first entry into the market.

It also cost less, as did the games. Anyone here remember how bloody expensive many SMS games were back in the day? Remember when AFTER BURNER came out? Yowsers!

[carmel_andrews]

DracIsBack, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:17 AM, said:

Bill_Loguidice, on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

based on the SMS's presence in stores

So you did a statistically significant survey of stores across the country, in major markets to come to this conclusion? Or are you falling into the trap of "my personal neighbourhood had it this way so it must be the same everywhere"-itis that plagues these forums?

Quote

, presence in magazines, presence in television ads, third party support and overall library, again, I just don't see how it's possible for the Atari 7800 to have outsold the SMS on its own except perhaps in the first year or so of the two system's existences.

The points about the ads are good, though it's important not to think about it purely in terms of television. IIRC, Atari spent a decent amount on retail promotion in lieu of television ads. And my experience has taught me that ads in flyers like "best buy" can move as much or more software than ads in magazines. Third party, I wouldn't brag about as the SMS really only had a couple of third party games in the US. I owned the SMS II and the 7800 and both had few third party games.

As for overall library, there's another consideration - the 7800 could play 2600 games out of the box. There were a PILE of 2600 games out there, in terms of the new market, the used market and people who already owned the games. The 2600 was *THE* system of the previous generation and I would suspect that many 7800 systems got sold because it was 'more advanced' but could play 2600 games out of the box.

The SMS had a larger library (with big name Sega arcade games being its draw) but there were still less than 100 games on it, IIRC. Most of its games actually came out in Europe, after it was killed in North America. Like the 7800, once the Genesis came out, it became harder to get SMS games in North America. Who here was able to buy a commercially released "Sonic The Hedgehog" or "Spider-Man" on the North American shelves? I saw them in magazines but found it impossible to find them in stores or order them.

There's also 'brand equity'. At the time, Atari was substantially more well known that Sega (again, due to the 2600) whereas the SMS was Sega's first entry into the market.

It also cost less, as did the games. Anyone here remember how bloody expensive many SMS games were back in the day? Remember when AFTER BURNER came out? Yowsers!

Wgungfu....I think 108stars was reffering to the fact that Tramiel re-started atarisoft (at least in europe) and also set up one or two pther atari software publishinmg labels atari interactive being one of them, can't remmeber the name of the other one but I know it did some stuff for the A8 and the ST...I think Atari interactive was a bit like atarisoft in that it ported various Atari exclusive games to non atari platforms (tempest 2000 being one of them) so I guess either atari interactive (in europe anyway) or the other atari software label (who's name i can't remember) probably had some deal going with nintendo or sega in europe

[Retro Rogue]

carmel_andrews, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:17 PM, said:

Wgungfu....I think 108stars was reffering to the fact that Tramiel re-started atarisoft (at least in europe) and also set up one or two pther atari software publishinmg labels atari interactive being one of them, can't remmeber the name of the other one but I know it did some stuff for the A8 and the ST...I think Atari interactive was a bit like atarisoft in that it ported various Atari exclusive games to non atari platforms (tempest 2000 being one of them) so I guess either atari interactive (in europe anyway) or the other atari software label (who's name i can't remember) probably had some deal going with nintendo or sega in europe

Once gain reaching for stuff. 1) Tramiel did not "re-start" AtariSoft it was canned everywhere except France where it lasted for a year before being phased out, and everything appearing with AtariSoft in that time period was stuff done under Warner. 2) Atari Interactive wasn't until 1996, and it was only around for a month and they only managed to get 4 titles out the door (Tempest 2000 being one of them).

Regardless, computer publishing has nothing to do with the NES and Genesis comment.

[108 Stars]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:02 PM, said:

Regardless, computer publishing has nothing to do with the NES and Genesis comment.

So, just to make my point clear: I did mean the situation where Nintendo approached Atari for the publishing rights of the Famicom; I believed this had happened after Tramiel took over, but if that was before, than that´s my mistake.

The Genesis was, according to a Retro Gamer article, also offered to Atari, I don´t know the date, but maybe after Sega had let Tonka take care of the SMS. Sega probably did not feel up to it and wanted Atari´s distribution channels and brand name.

After all, Sega of America was still young. The former American Sega branch, which handled the arcade machines in the US, had closed doors some time after the video game crash, and the completely new Sega of America was founded only about half a year before the SMS shipped. They saw the result of that, that they as a young company had a hard time getting the SMS into American homes, and they had seen that Tonka saved the SMS (contrary to popular belief). So it is understandable that they would try to get their next machines into even more able hands, so they offered it to Atari in 1987/88. Atari refused, leasing Sega to publish the system themselves after all with agressive marketing; the rest is history...

@kool kitty89

The CD³² actually did kind of sell at first; the strength of the Amiga name really helped, they were a loyal bunch. But in a way Commodore must have known it was a lost cause seeing how quickly they ran out of money. The game publishers also knew, because looking at the games that came for the system it was mostly old Amiga 1200 games on CD. If the publishers were feeling generous they would at least add an FMV intro; after all they could later use it for possible Sega-CD/SNES-CD ports. But overall it was just misused as a secondary market to make a quick buck out of cheaply produced CD versions.

What I´d like to know (also trying to say something on the topic) is what would have happened if Atari had chosen to cancel the Jaguar but pushed and released the Panther, but earlier than 1993. The SNES launched in 1992 in Germany, so maybe if Atari had brought its own system at the same time some more people would have picked the Atari-machine. Of course only if some 3rd parties had supported it, b ut in the situation of both SNES and Panther being pretty new maybe the devs would have played safe and supported both.

[kool kitty89]

I pretty much understand 108stars's comment about Tramiel's chance to have NES (false, but a pretty common misconception it seems, somewhat understandable with how confusing some of the info on history aroud that time seems)

But what I'm curious/confused about is that mention of Atari having a chance to join up with Sega? Never heard anything like that before. (unless that's confusion surrounding the early 90s atari-sega law suit)

I do seem to recall that SNK approached Atari at some point with some proposal about the Neo Geo, not realy sure on that. (though it was part of the speculation on what that mystery Atari Mirai with the XEGS like case was to be -later debunked in that context iirc)

Edited by kool kitty89, Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:53 PM.

[108 Stars]

Oh dear..."I pretty much understand 108stars's comment..." sounds like I am writing really bad english here and that it takes much effort to decipher my nonsense.^^

No, I´m not mixing things up; I am aware of the Sega-Atari-lawsuit about the controller ports, ending in Sega paying and giving Atari the rights to publish 5 games based on Sega franchises, excluding Sonic.

What I am talking about is that there really was a meeting where Sega offered Atari the rights to the Genesis just like the story that Nintendo had offered the Famicom.

I am pretty sure I read that in an article in Retro Gamer, the UK magazine. I would make the wild guess it was in an article on the Genesis.
But lucky as I am, the only articles I still have available as scans are about Lynx and Jaguar, so I cannot show proof atm. Sorry...

[kool kitty89]

108 Stars, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:40 PM, said:

The Genesis was, according to a Retro Gamer article, also offered to Atari, I don´t know the date, but maybe after Sega had let Tonka take care of the SMS. Sega probably did not feel up to it and wanted Atari´s distribution channels and brand name.

After all, Sega of America was still young. The former American Sega branch, which handled the arcade machines in the US, had closed doors some time after the video game crash, and the completely new Sega of America was founded only about half a year before the SMS shipped. They saw the result of that, that they as a young company had a hard time getting the SMS into American homes, and they had seen that Tonka saved the SMS (contrary to popular belief). So it is understandable that they would try to get their next machines into even more able hands, so they offered it to Atari in 1987/88. Atari refused, leasing Sega to publish the system themselves after all with agressive marketing; the rest is history...

Hmm, I've never heard/read anything about that.
On a slightly tangential note, Michael Katz (who had been working at Atari Corp, marketing I beleive -involved with 2600 Jr and 7800) was a significant contributer tot he Genesis's early success in the US, joining SoA as president in 1989, just after the console's release iirc. he was the one resposible for shifting Sega's merketing strategy from "arcade at home" (with the slogan: we bring the arcade experience home) to the competitive, in your face: "Genesis Does what Nintendon't" campaign. (though he was subsequently replaced by Tom Kilinske, apparently due to not meating Japan's rather arbitrary goal of 1M units sold w/in the first 6 months on the market, managing about 1/2 that)
No idea if Katz has anything to do with that supposed Sega-Atari deal though.

Quote

What I´d like to know (also trying to say something on the topic) is what would have happened if Atari had chosen to cancel the Jaguar but pushed and released the Panther, but earlier than 1993. The SNES launched in 1992 in Germany, so maybe if Atari had brought its own system at the same time some more people would have picked the Atari-machine. Of course only if some 3rd parties had supported it, b ut in the situation of both SNES and Panther being pretty new maybe the devs would have played safe and supported both.

The Panther was a joke, it didn't make for a good system, would have been tricky to work with and very constricting with limitations compared to SNES and Genesis and few advantages. only 32 kB of (shared) SRAM, no character modes, not enough space for a framebuffer, and (probably) a relatively basic sound system (FM Synthesis, vague though), with the CPU and Object Processor fighting over the shared bus, the 16 MHz 68k woud lose its speed advantage compared to the Genesis as well. (oly 32 kB could be used because it was expensive static RAM, necessary to meet the speed required by the object processor) And for sure 1993 would have been too late... The Panther is a relatively flawed and weak design, the Jag is much more powerful and flexible, and could have been much better if not for some bad decisions by Atari management. (that and rather bad financial state fuling some of those decisions, in particular the preemptive 1993 lauch with the still buggy hardware -in attemt to drum up investor intrest)

Really, it would hvae been best to solely focus on the Jag, and work out a more polished design. (preferably somehow convinced Atari management to go for a better suited CPU than the 68000 -a 68EC020 probably being the cheapest alternative) Or they could have gone a different direction and designed the chipset to be hosted by one of the custom RISC processors, but that's a substancial design concept change on flare's part. (should have been possible, but that seem to not be the direction they wanted to go with, maybe a bit riskier as well) If anything Atari should have waited until early/mid 1994, had the bugs worked out (at least moreso) and a larger, more polished game lineup at release. (again, their financial situation exacerbated this)

EDIT:

Quote

No, I´m not mixing things up; I am aware of the Sega-Atari-lawsuit about the controller ports, ending in Sega paying and giving Atari the rights to publish 5 games based on Sega franchises, excluding Sonic.

O'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with the controller ports, we discussed this before (someone even thought the suit involved Genesis being a rip-off of the ST...), but I think it had to do with various other Atari patents, not the controller ports. (which were common to Amiga, C64, and many other 8-bit computers as well; plus Sega used their own interface logic as well with their controllers, for the additional buttons)

Quote

What I am talking about is that there really was a meeting where Sega offered Atari the rights to the Genesis just like the story that Nintendo had offered the Famicom.

I am pretty sure I read that in an article in Retro Gamer, the UK magazine. I would make the wild guess it was in an article on the Genesis.
But lucky as I am, the only articles I still have available as scans are about Lynx and Jaguar, so I cannot show proof atm. Sorry...

Yeah, I got that now, I'd been typing that post when you posted your explanation (and didn't refresh the thread to double check on new posts), so I hadn't gotten to read it yet.

Edited by kool kitty89, Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:28 PM.

[The_Laird]

I remember reading in several of the ST magazines of the time that most of the Panther hardware ended up in the Falcon. I know for a fact that the Falcon has the Panther's sound chip and I believe the graphics hardware was very similar too. The Falcon ports of Raiden, Road Riot 4WD, Dino Dudes and Steel Talons are all the Panther versions simply ported over to the Falcon and of course Llamazap by Jeff Minter was the only game completed and shown running on the Panther hardware.

[kool kitty89]

The_Laird, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:39 PM, said:

I remember reading in several of the ST magazines of the time that most of the Panther hardware ended up in the Falcon. I know for a fact that the Falcon has the Panther's sound chip and I believe the graphics hardware was very similar too. The Falcon ports of Raiden, Road Riot 4WD, Dino Dudes and Steel Talons are all the Panther versions simply ported over to the Falcon and of course Llamazap by Jeff Minter was the only game completed and shown running on the Panther hardware.

Hmm, don't know about that, someone like Curt or wgungfu could probably shed more light on the subject.
I do know at one point Curt had mentioned that the Panther used the Blossom video card from the transputer, but that was a few years ago, and has since corrected that. It wasn't a finished product, but from what I understand from previous discussions: the video portion (Panther object processor) was the predicessor to the Jaguar's object processor (of course the Jaguar also has the blitter and GPU RISC), but sound hardware was not definite and not custom designed by flare either. (unlike Jerry in the Jag)
From what I understand, the Panther had originally intended to use Ensoniq's 32-voice ES5505 OTIS sound chip, but according to kskunk this was dropped with actual games starting development only using FM synthesis -presumably a Yamaha chip. (though prototype development systems had provisions for OTIS and sound RAM iirc).

I don't know of any relation to the Falcon... I'd though it was an evolutionary development of the ST/TT line, I don't think the Falcon's blitter or VIDEL video controller are related to the Panther OP (they do both suposedly use 18-bit palettes, but that's not much and so did VGA...), and the Falcon uses the STe sound hardware plus the 8-channel 16-bit PCM channels. (which I think are driven by the Motorola 56001 DSP, but I'm not sure about that)

The article could have misinterpreted something.

Edited by kool kitty89, Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:04 PM.

[108 Stars]

Hiya! I searched and found it!

It is indeed a statement by Mr Katz, so it should be relieable.

I have put the little text on the matter together from 2 pages; I did not want to print entire pages of the article here because the magazine is not that old and still available.



The article can be found in issue #27, in an article about the history of the Mega Drive. It is fascinating to see in retrospective what roads were open to Atari but not taken. Maybe, however slim the chance might be, the MD might have helped Atari set a foot back into the video game business, thanks also to the good software support from Japan. Maybe with a 16-Bit console having a stable market share they could have worked longer and had not rushed the Jaguar out.
Personally, with the Mega Drive being the console I am most attached to, I am glad it did not happen. While it did have a very successful life under Sega, who knows how it would have turned out under Atari´s leadership, without the image Sega managed to create for the system. Seeing how they managed to fail even with the Lynx, which I found out only last year is such an excellent handheld, I doubt they would have done much better with the MD.

Maybe it would have been called the Atari 15600 ?

[Chris Leach]

I hate it when you start to think about what you could have done yesterday and then it comes to be what you should have done would have changed the world as we know it...."should have never sold my time machine" JK

Were there pics of this Panther somewhere..I have never seen it before do they exist basically?