106 replies to this topic

[Jess Ragan]

That's the question, and until recently I thought the answer was pretty obvious. "Dump it!" I thought. "This discovery should be shared with the world!" Then, six or seven years after I dumped the only prototype I had, I ran into financial trouble, and I started to understand why a lot of collectors out there aren't as willing to share their once-in-a-lifetime thrift store finds. When you dump a game, the value of the original cartridge takes a dump along with it, and it's no longer much of an investment. So it really is a double-edged sword, and there are valid reasons for both dumping a game and keeping it under lock and key.

There have been people in the gaming community who have tried to find a middle ground between sharing prototypes and retaining their value. One enterprising individual (it may have been the late Brandon Murphy, owner of the California Raisins proto, but I'm not sure) wanted members of the community to contribute to a fund that would help him offset his game's loss in value after he dumped it. If it was Murphy, we're all aware that the game was eventually dumped, but if it wasn't, I can't tell you if the pledge drive was a success or not. Maybe TheRedEye would know what I'm talking about and could set me straight on this.

I'm still convinced that dumping a game is the right way to go, especially if the game in question is well designed. It's a piece of history, and there should be a way for the public to experience that history for themselves. At the same time, dumping games can be a thankless job... that warm fuzzy feeling you get from giving back to the community had better be worth the hundreds, even thousands of dollars your cartridge will lose overnight.

Where do you stand on all this? To dump or not to dump... that remains the question.

[Wickeycolumbus]

ALL prototypes should be dumped to preserve the contents. A lot of people say protos go down in value if they are released, so if some one is worried about that, simply don't release the ROM If someone does not want to hoard the ROM, but believes that the value to go down when they release it, either sell the ROM to people, or offer reproductions and then release the ROM for free once they are all sold.

[Crazy Climber]

I would hold a raffle, tickets could be purchased for $5 a piece with no limit on how many tickets one person could purchase. I would do a live drawing via webcam and the winner would get the prototype.

[Jess Ragan]

Wickeycolumbus, on Sun May 17, 2009 12:55 AM, said:

ALL prototypes should be dumped to preserve the contents. A lot of people say protos go down in value if they are released, so if some one is worried about that, simply don't release the ROM If someone does not want to hoard the ROM, but believes that the value to go down when they release it, either sell the ROM to people, or offer reproductions and then release the ROM for free once they are all sold.

The problem with this is that although the physical cartridge is yours, its contents are copyrighted and not yours to sell. Technically any distribution would probably be illegal without the express written consent of the developers, but they'd probably look more kindly on giving the ROM away than selling it for a profit.

[Wickeycolumbus]

Jess Ragan, on Sat May 16, 2009 8:16 PM, said:

Wickeycolumbus, on Sun May 17, 2009 12:55 AM, said:

ALL prototypes should be dumped to preserve the contents. A lot of people say protos go down in value if they are released, so if some one is worried about that, simply don't release the ROM If someone does not want to hoard the ROM, but believes that the value to go down when they release it, either sell the ROM to people, or offer reproductions and then release the ROM for free once they are all sold.

The problem with this is that although the physical cartridge is yours, its contents are copyrighted and not yours to sell. Technically any distribution would probably be illegal without the express written consent of the developers, but they'd probably look more kindly on giving the ROM away than selling it for a profit.

If there are copyright issues, simply don't release it. There is still no reason the owner shouldn't dump it though.

[Shawn Sr.]

Any proto's I've dumped have had the drop in value recouped threw sales of reproductions of said prototypes.

[Chickybaby]

Dumped to preserve info. Whether or not the game is shared would depend on if you were selling it in which case it would depend on the buyer or if there were any conditions that were agreed to when the cart was sold to you.
But, if you were keeping it I completely agree with what Shawn Sr. says.

[Jess Ragan]

Perhaps I should have said "dump and share," rather than just "dump." That was the implication, though.

[Shawn Sr.]

Jess Ragan, on Sun May 17, 2009 12:03 AM, said:

Perhaps I should have said "dump and share," rather than just "dump." That was the implication, though.

Well thats like saying would you like to be shot in the foot or in the head. Shot in the foot is dumping and making copies of the game. Shot in the head is dumping it and throwing it to the wind for someone else to cash in on the money you could have helped yourself to with copies of the game your giving away cause others will make copies and sell them like it or not, better off doing it yourself if anyone is to make some coin from your prototype. I'm all for sharing but I'm also all for making sure not to hurt yourself financially if your not someone with alot of cash to go around. I myself am barely in the middle class tax bracket so I've shot myself in the foot each time I've had games like this, never once shot myself in the head...lol...

[shadow460]

Unless copyright prevents it, dump and release. I actually own some protos that have been released. I know, they could be worth a lot more, but simply owning the prototype is enough for me. I'm not really into Atari to make money--I'm in it to have fun. By the same token, I think that others should be able to enjoy a game that I might have just newly discovered.

Take, for example, the Killer Satellites proto that turned up a couple of months back (no, I don't own it). It's totally different from the final release. I ask myself why I would want to deny that to anyone else? How do I feel when I know a proto is out there, like Going Up??, and if only it were to be released, I could play it. I hate that feeling, and keeping others from feeling that way is worth the drop in value, IMO.

Yeah, a prototype could be worth hundreds or it could be worth thousands. So could an R10 game. It doesn't matter to me, they are items I would never sell. I might sell an R10 if I had a duplicate of it, but I probably wouldn't sell a prototype. And actually, if I had one that I knew could benefit the community more if someone else had it, I'd consider just giving it away to that person on the condition that yes, they would dump it, and yes, they'd publish it to whatever point is legally allowed. Why make them pay you a bunch of money when all you're trying to do is get an unreleased game dumped and/or published?

Just my three cents.

[Random Terrain]

I thought the people who paid big money for games were paying for the rare cartridge because they want to touch it and squeeze it and lick it and hump it. Dumping the game shouldn't matter to them. If it did matter, why are some Atari 2600 games still worth a boatload of money even though we have the ROMs to play any time we want?

[Tempest]

Random Terrain, on Sat May 16, 2009 11:24 PM, said:

I thought the people who paid big money for games were paying for the rare cartridge because they want to touch it and squeeze it and lick it and hump it.

Amongst other things... Some days I miss my prototype collection.

Tempest

[carmel_andrews]

but how much of your rare's, tempest did you dump yourself and how much of it was dumped by others

[Rom Hunter]

Jess Ragan, on Sun May 17, 2009 2:47 AM, said:

That's the question, and until recently I thought the answer was pretty obvious. "Dump it!" I thought. "This discovery should be shared with the world!" Then, six or seven years after I dumped the only prototype I had, I ran into financial trouble, and I started to understand why a lot of collectors out there aren't as willing to share their once-in-a-lifetime thrift store finds. When you dump a game, the value of the original cartridge takes a dump along with it, and it's no longer much of an investment. So it really is a double-edged sword, and there are valid reasons for both dumping a game and keeping it under lock and key.

There have been people in the gaming community who have tried to find a middle ground between sharing prototypes and retaining their value. One enterprising individual (it may have been the late Brandon Murphy, owner of the California Raisins proto, but I'm not sure) wanted members of the community to contribute to a fund that would help him offset his game's loss in value after he dumped it. If it was Murphy, we're all aware that the game was eventually dumped, but if it wasn't, I can't tell you if the pledge drive was a success or not. Maybe TheRedEye would know what I'm talking about and could set me straight on this.

I'm still convinced that dumping a game is the right way to go, especially if the game in question is well designed. It's a piece of history, and there should be a way for the public to experience that history for themselves. At the same time, dumping games can be a thankless job... that warm fuzzy feeling you get from giving back to the community had better be worth the hundreds, even thousands of dollars your cartridge will lose overnight.

Where do you stand on all this? To dump or not to dump... that remains the question.

To me, there's no question about it: every single original VCS game should be dumped and archived, whether it's a proto or not.

Which doesn't mean the owner of the original cart can't make a few bucks out of it by selling some repro carts of the game first.

IMO, not dumping a unique VCS game and thus taking the risk to loose that game forever is a sin.

Each original VCS game is a piece of video game history that deserves to be preserved.

Edited by Rom Hunter, Sun May 17, 2009 6:55 AM.

[Snider-man]

One of the main arguements of the "OMFG ROM_HORDERZ!!!?!" crowd is that an undumped ROM may deteriorate and the unreleased game will be lost forever. Ergo, I do agree that the ROM should be dumped onto some kind of fairly permanent media and stashed away safe-n-sound. But whether the ROM should then be released to the masses, well that should really be up to the owner, ie, the person who discovered it and/or ponied up the cash for the priviledge of having it in their collection.

So dump - yes. Release - not really.

[Tempest]

carmel_andrews, on Sun May 17, 2009 3:21 AM, said:

but how much of your rare's, tempest did you dump yourself and how much of it was dumped by others

I dumped all my prototypes and released them all once they were sold and I got the permission of the people I sold them to (at least all I could reasonably contact). The only roms I haven't released are the 3 or 4 I promised I never would.

How many rare prototypes have you bought and released? It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

Tempest

[Jess Ragan]

Rom Hunter, on Sun May 17, 2009 1:47 PM, said:

To me, there's no question about it: every single original VCS game should be dumped and archived, whether it's a proto or not.

Why stop at the 2600, though? I think every game should have that chance... or at least every game worth playing.

[Tempest]

Jess Ragan, on Sun May 17, 2009 10:37 AM, said:

Rom Hunter, on Sun May 17, 2009 1:47 PM, said:

To me, there's no question about it: every single original VCS game should be dumped and archived, whether it's a proto or not.

Why stop at the 2600, though? I think every game should have that chance... or at least every game worth playing.

I've always felt that every possible version of every game should be archived. Given that you could probably store every known 2600 proto and rom image on one $20 USB drive, there's no reason not to. It's just the time and effort it takes to dump and archive them. Thankfully there are a whole bunch of dedicated people who are willing to do just that. The problem is that once you get out of the more mainstream systems and into the obscure like say the Videobrain, there aren't as many dedicated people with the resources available to dump the games.

Tempest

[deathtrappomegranate]

I (pretty much) always archive whatever hasn't been archived before, and make it available to all.

Anything that isn't preserved could be lost forever. Video game software (and computer software in general) is a recent phenomenon. Many of us take we have, and what we may have had, for granted, but we don't know what (if any) of it will be important to future generations.

[Shawn Sr.]

Tempest, on Sun May 17, 2009 12:10 PM, said:

It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

Bingo. Alot of folks just don't get how much money and time goes into this kinda shit.

[Rom Hunter]

Jess Ragan, on Sun May 17, 2009 5:37 PM, said:

Rom Hunter, on Sun May 17, 2009 1:47 PM, said:

To me, there's no question about it: every single original VCS game should be dumped and archived, whether it's a proto or not.

Why stop at the 2600, though? I think every game should have that chance... or at least every game worth playing.

Yes, of course.

I was only talking about the VCS section, but IMO every system's software should be preserved, even the most crappy games.

Before I started working for Atarimania, I donated stuff to the guys of GB64, of which I'm a huge admirer.

IMO every system (including systems like the Videobrain) should have it's own database like the GB64.

That's asking a lot, but I'm sure it will be worth it in future perspective.

Edited by Rom Hunter, Mon May 18, 2009 5:59 AM.

[carmel_andrews]

Tempest, on Sun May 17, 2009 4:10 PM, said:

carmel_andrews, on Sun May 17, 2009 3:21 AM, said:

but how much of your rare's, tempest did you dump yourself and how much of it was dumped by others

I dumped all my prototypes and released them all once they were sold and I got the permission of the people I sold them to (at least all I could reasonably contact). The only roms I haven't released are the 3 or 4 I promised I never would.

How many rare prototypes have you bought and released? It's really easy to act high and mighty when you've never spent one dime.

Tempest

The chances of any 'rares' or proto's turning up in London are about as common as me landing a PAL version 1200 or 5200 (i.e, you'd stand better chance of winning the US lottery, if there is one)

But if i did have an uncommon or a rare, i'd be more then happy to share it (if i had the tools to convert it to emulator format)

I wasn't trying to imply or infer anything tempest, merely curious

[MrMark0673]

It should be at the discretion of the owner of the prototype. For those of you saying to dump and release, that's great! Now go spend thousands on unreleased, undumped protos and release them to the public.

I personally dump every proto that comes through my hands, and I have several unreleased games for the NES in my possession. The whole "having the cart is good enough for me" argument is asinine too. Why spend thousands on an item and then intentionally devalue it? If that's your MO, then more power to you. If the cart alone is all you want, why not buy dumped protos for a fraction of the price?

I don't mind dumping and releasing, I plan to do that with every unreleased game I own and I will continue to buy them up and release them to the public for as long as I'm in this hobby. I'm also going to sell reproductions in order to re-coup my investment. It's a win-win, I make money and the public gets another unreleased game.

On that note, my first release, Hoppin' Mad for the NES, is set to go on sale Friday May 29th. The release will be limited to 100 carts and no carts will be made in the future by me. After the sale, I will be publicly releasing the ROM so that everyone can enjoy it whether they bough a repro or not.

For more info on the game, you can read my interview at unseen64 here: http://www.unseen64....ark-hoppin-mad/

[NE146]

Does the value really drop? I mean, to me there is value in having the actual original PHYSICAL piece

e.g. If there are freely distributable hi-res .jpg's of the Mona Lisa, does it affect the original's value? Although I guess the question is does the same logic apply to electronic media.

Edited by NE146, Mon May 18, 2009 6:51 AM.

[Tempest]

NE146, on Mon May 18, 2009 8:50 AM, said:

Does the value really drop? I mean, to me there is value in having the actual original PHYSICAL piece

e.g. If there are freely distributable hi-res .jpg's of the Mona Lisa, does it affect the original's value? Although I guess the question is does the same logic apply to electronic media.

It depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are a lot of factors that go into prototype pricing and dumped status is only one part of it. I think the popularity of the prototype affects the price as well. If you own the only copy of an rough or barely playable prototype, the price is probably going to be low even if it has been dumped (like Squoosh), but if you have a complete or almost complete proto of a fun game then it's going to go for tons of cash even if its been dumped (like say Pink Panther).

Yes it affects the price, but not as much as everyone thinks.

Tempest