87 replies to this topic

[krupkaj]

flashjazzcat, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:37 PM, said:

The only problem is noise on patternation on the ST's hi-res display (the patterned desktop looks as if it's moving). Haven't traced the cause of that yet, but with some tweaking, this could be an acceptable display.

I tried several LCD with same result. It is problem with clock pitch and phase setting. You can read about it for example here: http://www.techmind....phasexplan.html

Edited by krupkaj, Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:12 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

krupkaj, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:11 PM, said:

flashjazzcat, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:37 PM, said:

The only problem is noise on patternation on the ST's hi-res display (the patterned desktop looks as if it's moving). Haven't traced the cause of that yet, but with some tweaking, this could be an acceptable display.

I tried several LCD with same result. It is problem with clock pitch and phase setting. You can read about it for example here: http://www.techmind....phasexplan.html

Thanks: that's interesting reading. Sadly, the set has no phase lock adjustment. Life can be made bearable by changing the ST's desktop background pattern.

The LG will occasionally lose vertical sync (for example, when launching a program with the "X" command in SpartaDOS X) and when it subsequently locks in again, the picture is juddery. Switching the set off and on again fixes it. Perhaps I can adjust my VBXE csync pot to overcome this.

Tonight's experiments have definitely made me want a 4:3 AR set if I was to look for a better display.

[Jacques]

flashjazzcat, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:40 PM, said:

Philsan, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:15 AM, said:

To this LCD TV I connect Atari 130XE (s-video), Atari Falcon (VGA), Amiga 1200 (RGB) and C64 (composite video).
Unfortunately it is three years old but perhaps Samsung nowadays makes something similar.

That looks great. Really suits the XE styling. What's the model number?

Forget it flashjazzcat, although it's perfect with original Atari's video output (composite or s-video) or Amiga, it doesn't work correctly with VBXE because cannot use Atari's CSYNC in order to synchronise the VBXE video correctly. So the VBXE video looks broken:


And the adjustable resistor didn't help at all (tried many things according to Candle's and your advices).
That's why replaced Samsung 711MP with LG M1721A-BZ.

Edited by Jacques, Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:24 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

Jacques, on Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:06 PM, said:

Forget it flashjazzcat, although it's perfect with original Atari's video output (composite or s-video) or Amiga, it doesn't work correctly with VBXE because cannot use Atari's CSYNC in order to synchronise the VBXE video correctly. So the VBXE video looks broken:

And the adjustable resistor didn't help at all (tried many things according to Candle's and your advices).
That's why replaced Samsung 711MP with LG M1721A-BZ.

That's too bad. I can't find an LG M1721A-BZ, though (nor could I find a 711MP anyway). It just goes to prove that you absolutely cannot guarantee a particular set will do the required job purely by the specs alone. I have no shame about going from shop to shop with a VBXE equipped XE, asking to try it with televisions.

[flashjazzcat]

Managed to locate a 100% compatible replacement remote for the LG RZ-15LA70 on eBay. It may open up additional configuration options (also managed to get hold of the service manual).

[flashjazzcat]

Aha! Managed to find the user guide for the RZ-15LA70, and sure enough it does have phase/clock adjustment. Auto adjust has removed all noise problems with the ST's hi-res output:



I like this set more and more. Thanks to my uncle, God rest him!

Edited by flashjazzcat, Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:13 PM.

[Tickled_Pink]

If you can forego a slightly less sharp picture, the perfect all in one monitor these days is an LCD TV.

We picked up a cheap 19" TV from Ebuyer before Christmas. Plenty of connectivity options out the box. Tried the Jag on it and it obviously works fine through the RF connector (picture wasn't great, though). I would probably have to try a cleanup mod on the 2600 and A8 systems I have before attempting to connect those up to it.

Of course, it also pics up the PC through its VGA connector. Auto adjust again works but not great (screen shifted slightly to the left). Good enough for a cheap unit. Next time I'd probably spend a bit more on a decent brand.

[flashjazzcat]

Not sure about smaller modern LCDs, but the bigger the screen, the less apparent degradation through upscaling and A/D conversion, etc. The "softness" of the LCD picture is far more apparent on the 17" LG. The 22" LG M227WD (still widely available) or its smaller brother the M197 will not disappoint if you want an all-in-one which handles PC, HD TV, consoles, ST, and 8-bits. If I had the time and the money to go on an exhaustive search, I'd look for a 19" 4:3 LCD display of the highest quality.

I suppose if we stopped to think about it, we should count ourselves lucky that the output of these old computers can look so good on modern displays. I personally don't have room for a CRT, much as I'd like a 1701/1702 or SC1224 (the latter for VBXE).

Edited by flashjazzcat, Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:36 PM.

[Stephen]

flashjazzcat, on Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM, said:

Aha! Managed to find the user guide for the RZ-15LA70, and sure enough it does have phase/clock adjustment. Auto adjust has removed all noise problems with the ST's hi-res output:

ST Hi-Res.jpg

I like this set more and more. Thanks to my uncle, God rest him!

Very nice.

[flashjazzcat]

I thought I'd found the Achilles' Heel of this monitor. While the XEs all look pretty good through s-video, the "Ultravideo" XL suffered from ragged edged pictures (through s-video) when I first tried it:



However, after a reboot, this was the result:



The dramatic improvement in picture quality brought about by the "Ultravideo" mod (mainly: removing the RF modulator) is as apparent here as with the other set:



It seems the monitor is "hit and miss", the sync tolerances being on the edge when it comes to the Atari equipment. If the set loses the sync (for example, if DMA is turned off for a moment), when it latches on again, fifty percent of the time the picture will have a barely perceptible vertical "judder" (only visible to the naked eye), as if it's shifted up or down half a scan line every other frame. Turning the set off and on again or re-selecting the input source will cause it to lock on again with a steady picture. A sign that the picture will be steady is when the set is turned on after the Atari has booted up: the picture will "roll" for a moment, before settling down.

While these quirks are annoying, they hardly put the LG out of the running. It's an excellent display which copes with ninety percent of what I've thrown at it. The same set with the sync tolerances of the more modern M227WD is clearly what I'm looking for!

Edited by flashjazzcat, Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:18 AM.

[flashjazzcat]

I think I've found the cause of the most annoying "quirk" of the RZ-15LA70. Since my 130XE has dual VBXE and s-video outputs, I had left them both connected to the TV and simply switched input sources when testing. It was only when I adjusted the VBXE sync pot out of range when testing with Rybags interlaced Millennium Falcon picture and then discovered the s-video signal would no longer sync when I switched input sources that I realized that the TV still picks up a sync signal from the SCART input when viewing s-video, and vice versa. Disconnecting the s-video cable seems to have cured the shimmer effect on the VBXE (SCART) channel. It appears that the Atari monitor signal's sync is slightly off for this TV, and this signal was upsetting the SCART source.

So the TV is now a solid contender for ST high and low res modes, as well as VBXE, with only trivial s-video issues.

I'll need to ask Albert if I can edit the LG's entry in the 4:3 LCD TV topic to reflect this positive discovery.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:52 PM.

[Rybags]

Does doing that fix the issue that interlaced demos have?

Can you test MemoPad480i with it - it is probably the easiest to check if the interlace is working properly.

[flashjazzcat]

Rybags, on Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:42 PM, said:

Does doing that fix the issue that interlaced demos have?

Can you test MemoPad480i with it - it is probably the easiest to check if the interlace is working properly.

Sadly no. I tried MemoPad480i through both VBXE and s-video output. I locks on but tries to roll every few seconds. This is the s-video output:

 Memopad480i.wmv   470.69K   40 downloads

The VBXE shimmer problem does appear to be fixed, however, providing the s-video cable is disconnected. The issue persists with s-video, but it's hardly unwatchable and could probably be fixed by altering the chroma signal somehow.

I have located a couple of second hand 4:3 LCD TVs in the area which I'm going to test tomorrow. Some stores have very helpful staff who are happy to let me hook up the Ataris in the shop for testing. One TV is a 15" "Cello" branded set, and I have high hopes for it.

[ClausB]

Just got a 19" Dynex 720p LCD TV (NTSC) at Best Buy for $170. It has S-Video, composite, component, and VGA inputs. Just tried my 800XL (w/ chroma mod) and it syncs well. The composite input shows some ringing but the S-Video input looks good. There is some chroma bleed, so the blue background is not as uniform as it is on my big screen. The Atari's lo-res pixels' edges are softened by the TV's interpolation. You can select from several zoom modes to get the aspect ratio you want. No artifacting in GR.8 with S-Video, as you expect, but also none with the composite input, which is disappointing.

Don't know if it's a good price because I haven't been shopping lately. This one has a stuck green pixel so it's going back but I'll try another one.

Edit: Just tried the S-Video input on my big screen and there is some chroma bleed there too, so that fault may be in the Atari, not the TVs.

Edited by ClausB, Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:46 AM.

[Stephen]

ClausB, on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:33 AM, said:

Just got a 19" Dynex 720p LCD TV (NTSC) at Best Buy for $170. It has S-Video, composite, component, and VGA inputs. Just tried my 800XL (w/ chroma mod) and it syncs well. The composite input shows some ringing but the S-Video input looks good. There is some chroma bleed, so the blue background is not as uniform as it is on my big screen. The Atari's lo-res pixels' edges are softened by the TV's interpolation. You can select from several zoom modes to get the aspect ratio you want. No artifacting in GR.8 with S-Video, as you expect, but also none with the composite input, which is disappointing.

Don't know if it's a good price because I haven't been shopping lately. This one has a stuck green pixel so it's going back but I'll try another one.

Edit: Just tried the S-Video input on my big screen and there is some chroma bleed there too, so that fault may be in the Atari, not the TVs.

I have that same screen. The two Atari's I tried on it (stock PAL 130XE and a fairly heavily modified NTSC 130XE) also had terrible vertical lines. But, they looked exactly the same on my bigscreen CRT, so I am blaming the computers not this particular screen.

[ClausB]

Stephen, on Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:14 AM, said:

I have that same screen. The two Atari's I tried on it (stock PAL 130XE and a fairly heavily modified NTSC 130XE) also had terrible vertical lines. But, they looked exactly the same on my bigscreen CRT, so I am blaming the computers not this particular screen.

Do you use it primarily with your Ataris or do you use another monitor with them?

[Stephen]

ClausB, on Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:53 PM, said:

Stephen, on Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:14 AM, said:

I have that same screen. The two Atari's I tried on it (stock PAL 130XE and a fairly heavily modified NTSC 130XE) also had terrible vertical lines. But, they looked exactly the same on my bigscreen CRT, so I am blaming the computers not this particular screen.

Do you use it primarily with your Ataris or do you use another monitor with them?

Currently, it's my main screen for the Ataris, but I am going through a VGA upscaler. This has its issues, but is better than dealing with the vertical lines.

I also have a 1084S monitor which is being reserved for my VBXE equipped A8, and my 1040ST. I have made a custom 13-pin to RGB cable for the 1084S, and my A8 is using the same 13-pin connector as the ST, so one cable works with both. Neither machine is yet operational though.

[flashjazzcat]

What kind of RGB connector does the 1084s use on the back Stephen?

[wood_jl]

flashjazzcat, on Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM, said:

Aha! Managed to find the user guide for the RZ-15LA70, and sure enough it does have phase/clock adjustment. Auto adjust has removed all noise problems with the ST's hi-res output:

ST Hi-Res.jpg

I like this set more and more. Thanks to my uncle, God rest him!

How are you getting the ST to switch into hi-res? Do you have some fancy cable with a switch that you've made to tell it to do so, or a "monitor master" or something?

[flashjazzcat]

wood_jl, on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:18 AM, said:

How are you getting the ST to switch into hi-res? Do you have some fancy cable with a switch that you've made to tell it to do so, or a "monitor master" or something?

Nothing so sophisticated. I just have a DIN 13 to VGA cable which I plug in when I want hi-res, and a DIN 13 to SCART for low/med res.

[Stephen]

flashjazzcat, on Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:33 AM, said:

What kind of RGB connector does the 1084s use on the back Stephen?

I am not sure if there are multiple kinds, but my one uses this 6-pin DIN female for the analog RGB in.

[flashjazzcat]

Cool - thanks. Does csync from VBXE get wired to both vertical and horizontal sync on the 1084s?

[Stephen]

flashjazzcat, on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:09 AM, said:

Cool - thanks. Does csync from VBXE get wired to both vertical and horizontal sync on the 1084s?

I'll have to let you know once I have the VBXE installed.

[Philsan]

What about this new Samsung Monitor TV that seems to have s-video?
http://www.samsung.c...b=specification
And not new Acer AT1931?
http://acer.ch/acer/...&CRC=2234383520

[BillC]

wood_jl, on Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:50 PM, said:

That's a great solution!

Unfortunately, any Yankee model isn't going to have SCART. And without that, there will be no way to connect ST/Amiga to it then, right?

An expensive proposition to import, but I wonder if the Euro model would work in the U.S.? Would need power adapter, and then - will it display NTSC? Does yours display NTSC? (assuming you have an NTSC Atari or something in your collection)

It sucks SCART never made it to us yanks.

I know this reply is a little late, but LG US has a couple of 1080P televisions with the North American digital broadcast tuners (ATSC) as well as 2-HDMI, DVI, VGA d-sub, composite, PC audio in, headphone out, and 2 SCART ports.

These are the M2262D-PM and the M2362D-PM, MRSP of $290 and $320 respectively.

Edited by BillC, Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:41 PM.