408 replies to this topic

[spookt]

Mathy, on Tue Jun 9, 2009 10:48 PM, said:

Mathy (who ready on the Apple site yesterday that 10.6 will be Intel Mac only. )

Hmm guess my iMac gets updated but my Power Book doesn't then

[spookt]

spookt, on Tue Jun 9, 2009 10:41 PM, said:

I had no problem saving the text file. What error did you get ?

Ahem I take that back. To save the file I have to use "Save As" the "Save" option is not selectable. Hmm.

[Tezz]

Being forced into Microsoft conformity with my job for years I feel at home now with the horrors of Windows although Windows 7 is an improvement in the right direction.

All Apple users really should upgrade to an an Intel based system or use hackintosh (with an official licence) for the future as PPC is history for Apple.

Edited by Tezz, Tue Jun 9, 2009 4:06 PM.

[spookt]

Tezz, on Tue Jun 9, 2009 11:05 PM, said:

Being forced into Microsoft conformity with my job for years I feel at home now with the horrors of Windows although Windows 7 is an improvement in the right direction. All Apple users really should upgrade to an an Intel based system or use hackintosh (with an official licence). PPC is history for Apple.

Well I have an Intel Core Duo 2 iMac but also a Powerbook G4 which runs 10.5.x just fine. I'll continue to use it since I can't afford a new Macbook Pro It just won't get updated (obviously).

[Tezz]

spookt, on Tue Jun 9, 2009 11:06 PM, said:

Well I have an Intel Core Duo 2 iMac but also a Powerbook G4 which runs 10.5.x just fine. I'll continue to use it since I can't afford a new Macbook Pro It just won't get updated (obviously).

Yea, absolutely. I think considering the money buyers invest in their machines, they really should continue support for PPC longer even though the logistical reasons to move away from PPC are nessasary for the future of OSX

Edited by Tezz, Tue Jun 9, 2009 4:10 PM.

[peteym5]

peter.dell, on Tue Jun 9, 2009 10:45 AM, said:

WOW! Thanks for all the feedback. So here are some answers:

- Installation of Eclipse
This is fairly easy. Especially you can live with the minimum installation (no SDK) and currently without any other plugin.
Also you can install/copy/move Eclipse using just simple file operations. No registry entries or something similar.
So the footprint is not too big and I should run smoothly on and machine which is able to render this web site

- I added MADS to the sections "planned features" just like XASM. The point is that I first want to get one thing stable before I add another.
As you can imagine, this plugin involves more than just configuration (log file parsing, content outline parsing, ..).
Also I neither have experience in nor sources for using XSAM/MADS.
But if there are people willing to help, I'll surely add them. The code is prepared to be extended in this way.

- Regarding the "Compile does not work and where the heck is the highlighting".
This is because when you create an "Unnamed Text File", the normal text editor is opened first.
This is why the feature "Project wizard ..." is on the list of planned features.
In this case an ".asm" file is created empty and directly opened with the correct editor.
For the time being I have added "Close the normal text editor and double-click the file in the project folder to open it in the ATASM editor" to the example guide.

- @Heaven: See the "productions" tab of the site. There will also be a bug-fixed single file version of the Visdom-II demo for download soon, so you don't have to rip it

MADS is backward compatible with XASM & ATASM and whatever works with them will work with MADS. MADS has few directives like .byte that converts the Atari screen codes, and can compile 65816 code. Many like MADS because of this .byte feature, I am not familar with ATASM or know if there is a similar function in there as well.

Edit: just glanced through the ATASM manual and see .SBYTE does the same thing we need and is backward compatible with MAC/65. It would not be too difficult to convert a MADS listing over to ATASM since they use many of the same directives. I can see why ATASM is so attractive because many have MAC/65 code they have laying around and need something more powerful that works in Windows.

Edited by peteym5, Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:37 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

I like WUDSN so much (under Windows, but I'll be trying it on Mac OS X soon) that it's finally won me over to the idea of cross-platform development. My current project is 13,000 lines long and has so far been compiled on an emulator using an assembler I wrote myself. It's a very capable assembler, but even with the emulator speeded up by a factor of eight, 13,000 lines of assembler is getting out of hand. Cue some urgent reading up on the ATASM assembler format. The MA65 assembler closely follows the MAC/65 style with a few minor deviations, but the biggest headache about the code conversion is getting rid of the inverse and control characters strewn throughout the source code. I'm not yet at the stage where I've tried compiling the program with ATASM, but I love the WUDSN environment. It's great to be able to jump to compile-time errors in the editor, hop to label names by clicking them in a list. This should half the development time, at least.

Keep up the good work!

[dwhyte]

flashjazzcat, on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:01 PM, said:

I like WUDSN so much (under Windows, but I'll be trying it on Mac OS X soon) that it's finally won me over to the idea of cross-platform development. My current project is 13,000 lines long and has so far been compiled on an emulator using an assembler I wrote myself. It's a very capable assembler, but even with the emulator speeded up by a factor of eight, 13,000 lines of assembler is getting out of hand. Cue some urgent reading up on the ATASM assembler format. The MA65 assembler closely follows the MAC/65 style with a few minor deviations, but the biggest headache about the code conversion is getting rid of the inverse and control characters strewn throughout the source code. I'm not yet at the stage where I've tried compiling the program with ATASM, but I love the WUDSN environment. It's great to be able to jump to compile-time errors in the editor, hop to label names by clicking them in a list. This should half the development time, at least.

Keep up the good work!

I agree with you 100% flashjazzcat. I'm really loving this environment for my A8 coding experiments. I'm really wanting xasm or mads support in it as I use those assemblers more than ATASM.

[JAC!]

Hi there,

I'm really happy to see so many people that like my product. So I'll try to answer all questions and comments.

Q1: Compile and Run option will not work as the preferences screen will not accept Atari800MacX.app as an emulator
A: Sorry, but I don't have a Mac or Linux machine for testing, so I need your feedback.
The browse button always also offers "*.*" in addition to "*.exe".
I have adapted the screen. It now (should) default to "*.exe" under Windows, "*.app" under MacOS and "*.*" under all others with the next release.

Q2: Is it possible to change the object file target folder for compliations?
Q: The compile option works fine but binaries are produced in /tmp which makes getting at them a pain.
A: I chose "%TEMP%" because I wanted to keep the required configuration at a minimum and because I have tons of single (effect) sources I play around with. So I don't wanted to have all the executable spoil my directories. Also for loading the symbol files into the emulator it is helpful to have a short file path, because you have to type it in (there is unfortunately no command line option to pass the symbols file name). For real projects it makes of course sense to store the executable. My idea would be to add a choice to the preferences which lets you select between "Compile to temp" and "Compile to source folder". Or is there a real use case where out want to define an explicit (static) output folder? I also had the idea of creating a menu entry for openin the source and the target folder directly. What do you think?

Q3: Any chance to make it fully open sourced??
A: WUDSN IDE is released under GPL V2, so it is open sourced already. I'll include the sources once the major tests and fixes are through.
For XASM/MADS I'll need support anyways. But I would like to incorporate all extensions into one stable version and provide is centrally.

Q4: To save the file I have to use "Save As" the "Save" option is not selectable.
A: This is because the file was created using "Unnamed Text File", so it has no name yet.
I have changed the guide to use "New/File" instead of "New/Unknown Text File".
That way you specify the file name in advance and the correct editor is opened directly (no close & double click required) and you can save directly.

Q5: Is thre .byte and Atari screen code directive in ATASM?
A: Yes, there are 5 different commands (.byte, .cbyte, .sbyte, .dbyte, .word) with additional parameter for offsets and so on.

Q6: What about MADS and XASM?
A: I have refactored some parts today and added the basic editor and compiler support for XASM and MADS.
Note: There is no outline, folding and symbols table and directives yet.

Q7: What else did you do today?
A: I added the download links to the perferences page to simplify the installation. I added a new menu entry which opens up the compiler's documentation from the local installation ("atasm.pdf/xasm-html/mads.html").




Note that all this is not available yet, but I'm working on it.

And now my questions for you:
Q11: "I'm writing a source code converter as we speak..." - for which conversion? MADS=>ATASM?
Q11: What is Hackintosh? A Mac emulator for PCs?
Q13: Is where a way for you to provide a Mac version of ATASM? Is that always a "*.app" file? I'm in contact with Marc (the developer of ATASM) and would like to include that binary into the standard distribution (Atasm V1.06).
Q14: What is the default file extension for MADS. I assume it is also "*.asm" since the examples in the distribution end like that.
Q15: Is there an English manual for MADS. Though my wife's parents come from poland she surely won't be in a position to translate a cross compiler documentation But without one, I can hardly get all the functions ready (MADS is really powerful ca I can see).

Side note: You can configure tab width to 8 chars in the normal preferences menu.

[flashjazzcat]

Q11: "I'm writing a source code converter as we speak..." - for which conversion? MADS=>ATASM?
A11: My source code was written for my own MA65 assembler (which runs on native Atari hardware under SpartaDOS), and it had a few quirks such as the ability to have periods in label names, pseudo-ops without leading periods, underscores at the start of labels, etc. There was also the headache of converting literal strings which were full of inverse and ATASCII characters. Eventually I decided the converter would be a parser in its own right, so I scrapped the idea and hand-converted the source code, using ATRUtil to extract the files from a DOS 2.5 ATR (with CR/LF conversion) to the PC. I fully expect there to be teething problems getting the thing to compile perfectly with ATASM, but it will be worth it in the long run.
Q12: What is Hackintosh? A Mac emulator for PCs?
A12: A hackintosh is non-Apple hardware running Mac OS X. There are releases of Mac OS X with a custom boot-loader which allows the OS to install on stock Intel and AMD platforms. Getting the thing working properly can be arduous. I had to buy a replacement wi-fi card because there were no Apple drivers for the old one.

[Heaven/TQA]

flashjazzcat, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:28 PM, said:

Q11: "I'm writing a source code converter as we speak..." - for which conversion? MADS=>ATASM?
A11: My source code was written for my own MA65 assembler (which runs on native Atari hardware under SpartaDOS), and it had a few quirks such as the ability to have periods in label names, pseudo-ops without leading periods, underscores at the start of labels, etc. There was also the headache of converting literal strings which were full of inverse and ATASCII characters. Eventually I decided the converter would be a parser in its own right, so I scrapped the idea and hand-converted the source code, using ATRUtil to extract the files from a DOS 2.5 ATR (with CR/LF conversion) to the PC. I fully expect there to be teething problems getting the thing to compile perfectly with ATASM, but it will be worth it in the long run.
Q12: What is Hackintosh? A Mac emulator for PCs?
A12: A hackintosh is non-Apple hardware running Mac OS X. There are releases of Mac OS X with a custom boot-loader which allows the OS to install on stock Intel and AMD platforms. Getting the thing working properly can be arduous. I had to buy a replacement wi-fi card because there were no Apple drivers for the old one.

A12. For most common netbooks like Samsung NC10 or MSI Wind there are hackintosh distributions which install and run without any major issue except for the wifi. And when using f.e. vodafone umts usb stick you can easily get into the internet when using the official vodafone mac software. After update 10.5.7 which Apple release few weeks ago LAN works out of the box at least on my NC10.

[Heaven/TQA]

peter.dell, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:50 PM, said:

Hi there,

I'm really happy to see so many people that like my product. So I'll try to answer all questions and comments.

Q1: Compile and Run option will not work as the preferences screen will not accept Atari800MacX.app as an emulator
A: Sorry, but I don't have a Mac or Linux machine for testing, so I need your feedback.
The browse button always also offers "*.*" in addition to "*.exe".
I have adapted the screen. It now (should) default to "*.exe" under Windows, "*.app" under MacOS and "*.*" under all others with the next release.

Q2: Is it possible to change the object file target folder for compliations?
Q: The compile option works fine but binaries are produced in /tmp which makes getting at them a pain.
A: I chose "%TEMP%" because I wanted to keep the required configuration at a minimum and because I have tons of single (effect) sources I play around with. So I don't wanted to have all the executable spoil my directories. Also for loading the symbol files into the emulator it is helpful to have a short file path, because you have to type it in (there is unfortunately no command line option to pass the symbols file name). For real projects it makes of course sense to store the executable. My idea would be to add a choice to the preferences which lets you select between "Compile to temp" and "Compile to source folder". Or is there a real use case where out want to define an explicit (static) output folder? I also had the idea of creating a menu entry for openin the source and the target folder directly. What do you think?

Q3: Any chance to make it fully open sourced??
A: WUDSN IDE is released under GPL V2, so it is open sourced already. I'll include the sources once the major tests and fixes are through.
For XASM/MADS I'll need support anyways. But I would like to incorporate all extensions into one stable version and provide is centrally.

Q4: To save the file I have to use "Save As" the "Save" option is not selectable.
A: This is because the file was created using "Unnamed Text File", so it has no name yet.
I have changed the guide to use "New/File" instead of "New/Unknown Text File".
That way you specify the file name in advance and the correct editor is opened directly (no close & double click required) and you can save directly.

Q5: Is thre .byte and Atari screen code directive in ATASM?
A: Yes, there are 5 different commands (.byte, .cbyte, .sbyte, .dbyte, .word) with additional parameter for offsets and so on.

Q6: What about MADS and XASM?
A: I have refactored some parts today and added the basic editor and compiler support for XASM and MADS.
Note: There is no outline, folding and symbols table and directives yet.

Q7: What else did you do today?
A: I added the download links to the perferences page to simplify the installation. I added a new menu entry which opens up the compiler's documentation from the local installation ("atasm.pdf/xasm-html/mads.html").

ide_assembler_menu.png
ide_asse...ferences.png

Note that all this is not available yet, but I'm working on it.

And now my questions for you:
Q11: "I'm writing a source code converter as we speak..." - for which conversion? MADS=>ATASM?
Q11: What is Hackintosh? A Mac emulator for PCs?
Q13: Is where a way for you to provide a Mac version of ATASM? Is that always a "*.app" file? I'm in contact with Marc (the developer of ATASM) and would like to include that binary into the standard distribution (Atasm V1.06).
Q14: What is the default file extension for MADS. I assume it is also "*.asm" since the examples in the distribution end like that.
Q15: Is there an English manual for MADS. Though my wife's parents come from poland she surely won't be in a position to translate a cross compiler documentation But without one, I can hardly get all the functions ready (MADS is really powerful ca I can see).

Side note: You can configure tab width to 8 chars in the normal preferences menu.

A2: Source folder would be fine to store the exe output.

A14: Yes. .ASM mostly used. the old .ASX interefere too much with Media Players imho.

A15: no... only started partly but MADS gets new features on a regular basis. but XASM does have english docs.

Q16: Is there an Mac OS X version of MADS?
A16: Yes. At leasat I have one and I am using it with Atari800 OS X as emulator.

[spookt]

I built MADS, ATASM and XASM for Mac OS X and released them in a this thread. They all just build fine when you have the right compilers (Pascal, GCC and D IIRC). I think my version of ATASM was 1.05 so if 1.06 is around I'll build a new one and post it.

EDIT: Here's ATASM 1.06 for OS X

 atasm.zip   38.61K   67 downloads

Edited by spookt, Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:32 PM.

[spookt]

peter.dell, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:50 PM, said:

Hi there,

I'm really happy to see so many people that like my product. So I'll try to answer all questions and comments.

Q1: Compile and Run option will not work as the preferences screen will not accept Atari800MacX.app as an emulator
A: Sorry, but I don't have a Mac or Linux machine for testing, so I need your feedback.
The browse button always also offers "*.*" in addition to "*.exe".
I have adapted the screen. It now (should) default to "*.exe" under Windows, "*.app" under MacOS and "*.*" under all others with the next release.

I can select the emulator binary in the browse window, and the correct path appears in the preferences dialogue, but the "Apply" button is inactive so I cannot commit the change.

Quote

Q2: Is it possible to change the object file target folder for compliations?
Q: The compile option works fine but binaries are produced in /tmp which makes getting at them a pain.
A: I chose "%TEMP%" because I wanted to keep the required configuration at a minimum and because I have tons of single (effect) sources I play around with. So I don't wanted to have all the executable spoil my directories. Also for loading the symbol files into the emulator it is helpful to have a short file path, because you have to type it in (there is unfortunately no command line option to pass the symbols file name). For real projects it makes of course sense to store the executable. My idea would be to add a choice to the preferences which lets you select between "Compile to temp" and "Compile to source folder". Or is there a real use case where out want to define an explicit (static) output folder? I also had the idea of creating a menu entry for openin the source and the target folder directly. What do you think?

Compiling to the source folder would work for me, but I'm not building large projects. Others may disagree.

Quote

Q4: To save the file I have to use "Save As" the "Save" option is not selectable.
A: This is because the file was created using "Unnamed Text File", so it has no name yet.
I have changed the guide to use "New/File" instead of "New/Unknown Text File".
That way you specify the file name in advance and the correct editor is opened directly (no close & double click required) and you can save directly.

Ah that makes sense

Quote

Q15: Is there an English manual for MADS. Though my wife's parents come from poland she surely won't be in a position to translate a cross compiler documentation But without one, I can hardly get all the functions ready (MADS is really powerful ca I can see).

Unfortunately not. I think efforts have been made but as far as I know there is no full English documentation for MADS.


Thanks for all the work that's going into this BTW.

Edited by spookt, Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:43 PM.

[Tezz]

Really happy to see the MADS support being introduced, this is shaping up to be great. I'll be changing over to use this for sure.

BTW I thought I'd also be worth mentioning that it's possible to run an OSX hackintosh install as a virtual system also although a native install is preferable. Installation is pretty straight forward for anyone unaware of this before now. Having multiple OS's with a boot loader can be a little tricky to sort out if you've not had experience of it but it's not rocket science and is possible, my test rig for instance has Unbuntu, Windows7 RC, OSX and XP so that I have all options to work with.

Look forward to seeing this progress.

[cas]

Q13: Is where a way for you to provide a Mac version of ATASM? Is that always a "*.app" file? I'm in contact with Marc (the developer of ATASM) and would like to include that binary into the standard distribution (Atasm V1.06).

A13: Under MacOS X, an "*.app" is an MacOS X Cocoa (the modern Objective-C API) or Carbon (the old, MacOS 9 API) GUI Application. An ".app" is really an directory containing configuration, resources (graphics, sound etc) and the binary. The Atari800MacOSX Emulator is an "app" . Compiler/Assembler like ATASM are (POSIX compatible) commandline tools and do not need an ".app" Structure (there are no resources etc), there is just the binary "atasm" that can be made executable and can be placed in any directory to be executed (on my system in lives in /usr/local/bin/atasm. For POSIX programs, MacOS X behaves just like any other Unix.

It would be nice to have the "atasm" binary as an universal binary (i386 and ppc code), an installer package downloadable as DMG Image. When I find some time on the weekend I will document the steps how to do that on MacOS X.

[Heaven/TQA]

Tezz... so...actually I have XP and OSX on my machine... Can I now install W7 over it and will all 3 OS' be selectable? or do I have to write a bootloader then? I am unexperienced in that... just courious...

[Heaven/TQA]

Cas...thanks... that makes it little bit clearer... for us "hackintosh" users...

[Heaven/TQA]

btw. does this eclipse version support version control of source codes?

[Tezz]

Heaven/TQA, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:26 PM, said:

Tezz... so...actually I have XP and OSX on my machine... Can I now install W7 over it and will all 3 OS' be selectable? or do I have to write a bootloader then? I am unexperienced in that... just courious...

I use GRUB for my boot loader personally so I have all the OS's selectable. If you create a partition for Windows 7 and install, the XP boot menu will be replaced by the Windows 7 boot selector with both Windows OS's listed. The OSX loader chainloads via a component installed on the XP installation and so I replace the Windows boot selector with Grub so that I'm able to select all the OS's and the boot menu can also have a nice picture in the background too.

Edited by Tezz, Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:38 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

Just managed to get The Last Word to successfully compile using ATASM. Don't have time to see if it'll run: going out in a minute. BUT there's a problem. Compling from within WUDSN reports an unknown symbol "Q_FLAG" and thus won't produce an object file. The assembly code compiles OK in ATASM. I had to debug the code outside of Eclipse because the IDE won't get past this error. I've tried changing the symbol name, etc, all to no avail. I hope I can get this to work because I REALLY want to use WUDSN to finish work on LW!

...hmmm. Panic over. I shut Eclipse down and went in again and it compiles OK now. Seems some fatal compile errors "linger" till the app is restarted!

Edited by flashjazzcat, Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:52 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

Tezz, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:34 PM, said:

Heaven/TQA, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:26 PM, said:

Tezz... so...actually I have XP and OSX on my machine... Can I now install W7 over it and will all 3 OS' be selectable? or do I have to write a bootloader then? I am unexperienced in that... just courious...

I use GRUB for my boot loader personally so I have all the OS's selectable. If you create a partition for Windows 7 and install, the XP boot menu will be replaced by the Windows 7 boot selector with both Windows OS's listed. The OSX loader chainloads via a component installed on the XP installation and so I replace the Windows boot selector with Grub so that I'm able to select all the OS's and the boot menu can also have a nice picture in the background too.

I've never tried one of these custom bootloaders but I have Vista, Win 7 and Mac OS X all running off what is now the Win 7 bootloader menu. Vista was installed first, then Mac OS X, then Win 7. The Win 7 bootloader kept things intact; prior to that I used EasyBCD or BCDEdit (one of the two - I forget which) to set up the Mac OS partition on the boot menu.

The only issue I've found with dual booting OS X and Vista/Win 7 in this manner is that the system clock is an hour slow after coming out of OS X into Windows. I did have something set up to fix it but it's gone missing and I can't remember what it was...

[Heaven/TQA]

re: system clock.

well... after being in OS X the XP hour is completly off but I set up in Windows that it syncs via internet after an hour or so... (why not as soon as you are on the net like OS X? )

[Tezz]

flashjazzcat, on Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:16 PM, said:

I've never tried one of these custom bootloaders but I have Vista, Win 7 and Mac OS X all running off what is now the Win 7 bootloader menu. Vista was installed first, then Mac OS X, then Win 7. The Win 7 bootloader kept things intact; prior to that I used EasyBCD or BCDEdit (one of the two - I forget which) to set up the Mac OS partition on the boot menu.

I've used Grub for many years as it gives me the most control, years ago I used to have my Amithlon installation included in there, it's a shame that got forced down. With the catweazel installed it was really good.

[Tezz]

Anyway.. sorry I'm sending this thread really off topic!