Mr Morden Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Carmel, this thread is not about that. As I started WAY into this, this thread has NOTHING to do with Jaguar Sector 2. What this is about is consistancy in the forum rules of Atariage, and a lifting of the censorship and strict rules here on the Jaguar forum. Stay on target... Exactly. It's about the pitchforks that come out everytime someone says they can make an emulator, or a flash device, or anything that might, possibly, even indirectly allow one game - and lets be VERY clear about this, there is, as far as I can see, only one developer on the entire planet who is trying to enforce this stupidity - to be loaded and played. And you can't even buy said game anyway. Except from ebay, where the money made doesn't even go to the charity it was supposed to go to anyway, it goes to the seller. Anyway, thats beside the point. The point is, if this forums rules and regulations were applied to all the other forums on this site, there would be no AtariMax Flashcarts for your A8, no APE, no ProSYS. There would be no FlashCard for the Lynx. There would be no UltraSatan, no SatanDisk, no USB/Flash floppy devices for the ST/Falcon. No multiRom flashcards for the 2600. No way to play 7800 games. It would be like the dark ages all over again. Ok, thats worst case senario. The points are all valid tho. We want the Jaguar to SURVIVE and FLOURISH. We want MORE GAMES. We want MORE DEVELOPERS. We *NEED* an open forum, with the same regulation as the other forums here, which have allowed the other formats to thrive and grow and expand into something wonderful. Allowing one small subset of the community to dictate and ride roughshot over everone else is a huge backwards step, here, and in any community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) I dont' quite understand why one forum (this JSII place ) has or had got it in or another forum (AA), after all, since most peeps there probably come here and since most peeps here probably go there...It makes no sense to have infighting, can't both set of forum's just let it be and co-exist in blistfull harmony After all, last thing you peeps want to do is scare people away from the jagauar Carmel, this thread is not about that. As I started WAY into this, this thread has NOTHING to do with Jaguar Sector 2. What this is about is consistancy in the forum rules of Atariage, and a lifting of the censorship and strict rules here on the Jaguar forum. Stay on target... I am trying to stay with it (as you put it Dr.) but i can't help it if i follow other peoples conversation threads within this thread...as we are talking about a whole range of issues here Dr. Perhaps a rereleased or relaunched jaguar 'platform' will make the populous here happy and get the jaguar the 2 million target audience that JT originally attested to Sorry but my head is beginning to hurt....can i chuck up now Edited June 27, 2009 by carmel_andrews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Perhaps a rereleased or relaunched jaguar 'platform' will make the populous here happy and get the jaguar the 2 million target audience that JT originally attested to Carmel please go and start another thread somewhere where you can ramble on ignoring everything said previously, but please, PLEASE do not attempt to derail this thread. This thread is IMPORTANT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Perhaps a rereleased or relaunched jaguar 'platform' will make the populous here happy and get the jaguar the 2 million target audience that JT originally attested to Carmel please go and start another thread somewhere where you can ramble on ignoring everything said previously, but please, PLEASE do not attempt to derail this thread. This thread is IMPORTANT. Better get used to it... Carmel does that in about every thread he is in... just ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LS650 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 What this is about is consistancy in the forum rules of Atariage, and a lifting of the censorship and strict rules here on the Jaguar forum. So what exactly are you proposing? We've had two long pages of discussion, but I'm still uncertain as to what changes you want, exactly. What do you want to happen? Stay on target... Good advice. Please stay on topic, folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christos Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 What this is about is consistancy in the forum rules of Atariage, and a lifting of the censorship and strict rules here on the Jaguar forum. So what exactly are you proposing? We've had two long pages of discussion, but I'm still uncertain as to what changes you want, exactly. What do you want to happen? Deleting the jaguar subforum rules and apply the general rules of the forum to it seems to be the general idea. There is no reason to have different rules to this subforum than there are in the whole atariage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) So what exactly are you proposing? We've had two long pages of discussion, but I'm still uncertain as to what changes you want, exactly.What do you want to happen? "What do you want?" is Mr Morden's line As ChrisTOS said, the removal of the subforum with the explicit rules that are applied to this section. And the chasing down with pitchforks and flaming torches of the people trying to enforce dark-age type restrictions on the advancement of the Jaguar scene, instead of the people who are attempting to advance things. And more than anything, to see the Jaguar shine as the pinacle of Atari hardware. Edited June 27, 2009 by Mr Morden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LS650 Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Here are the Jaguar-specific 'rules': http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83064 There are really only three rules, and the first two are applied to the other Atari forums anyhow: - Don't attack other users:- Don't Troll - Don't Discuss Piracy So really, the only real change being proposed is allowing posters to discuss emulation, copying, backup, and such topics that might be considered 'piracy'-related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Morden Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Here are the Jaguar-specific 'rules': http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83064There are really only three rules, and the first two are applied to the other Atari forums anyhow: - Don't attack other users:- Don't Troll - Don't Discuss Piracy So really, the only real change being proposed is allowing posters to discuss emulation, copying, backup, and such topics that might be considered 'piracy'-related. The first two are common sense. The last one is taken to the nth extreme, only here, in this one place, where in all the other forums it has spawned discussions leading to many amazing and wonderful things (Like AtariMax FlashROM, etc) And for no good reason, it would seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viMaster Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Exactly. It's about the pitchforks that come out everytime someone says they can make an emulator, or a flash device, or anything that might, possibly, even indirectly allow one game - and lets be VERY clear about this, there is, as far as I can see, only one developer on the entire planet who is trying to enforce this stupidity - to be loaded and played. Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve And you can't even buy said game anyway. Except from ebay, where the money made doesn't even go to the charity it was supposed to go to anyway, it goes to the seller. Wow, you seem to have a lot of disinformation coming at you since your arrival here and granted, that can be chalked up to the fact that you're new... but once again, before you go spouting off about something you know nothing about, get the facts. Every year this seller (aka developer) does a charity bike ride. He not only asks for donations on the diabetes Tour De Cure site, but he also sells one copy of BS on EBay. I don't know where you got your information about him keeping the money, but it makes no sense when he: 1. Is adamant about raising money for fighting diabetes and 2. Doesn't even need the money. Once again, we've been brought off-topic with disinformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve It's off topic, but I feel like a comment. Your stance implies that the majority of Jaguar fans who buy recent Jaguar games are only buying them because they have no option... that they would simply stop doing that & that they are mostly closet pirates & would rather copy games than buy them if it wasn't for people such as our good self protecting the devs. That's more than paranoid, eh? It's been said many times before, look to the examples set on other systems. If devs don't want their stuff copied, put up a disclaimer, make it known, the vast majority of people will respect that because they respect the effort of the devs. The few that won't were likely not going to be customers & more likely to be rom collectors who just aren't worth the effort of considering. Once again, we've been brought off-topic with disinformation. Fight the good fight, comrade, this disinformation must be obliterated. On to the topic of the discussion of this forum's policies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgenthe Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I agree with the OP. It does seem odd that piracy type topics are not allowed in the Jaguar forum, but allowed in the other areas of the site. While I respect developers who don't wish for there work to be pirated (in the case of BS), but what about Checkered Flag? Cybermorph? Club Drive? As previously stated, this site HOSTS ROMS (if that isn't piracy, I don't know what is) for other systems. But not the Jaguar. I think Dr. is accurate that it is hypocritical to limit information and discussion on the grey areas of the Jaguar. With the recent exposure from AVGN and new development from the skunkboard, I imagine this scene is going to get bigger. New people are not going to tolerate the old rules this community used to abide by. As seen in this topic, very few people seem to support the old ways of zero tolerance. The Jag scene in general is a very small and dedicated group. It is definitely a special place to be a part of, but I don't think it can survive let alone grow, with the current mind set. I think topics like backing up should be allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 The Jag scene in general is a very small and dedicated group. It is definitely a special place to be a part of, but I don't think it can survive let alone grow, with the current mind set. The ayes have it - if this was an election it would be a landslide victory for common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorclu Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 Thanks kgenthe some good supporting points of this thread. For those of you that expressed some confusion here on the fourth page of this thread, let me just summarize what is being asked here. There was a comment on the "nerve" of developers wanting to protect their product. I can see the confusion here. We have the policy of not talking about "anything piracy" here, and that has been taken to the extreme. The rules again... - Don't attack other users: - Don't Troll - Don't Discuss Piracy So I looked to the other Atari hardware forums for inspiration. Maybe look at the rules of the other successful forums to see how they worded their rules and take some notes. I noticed something very interesting they all have in common... THEY ALL DON'T HAVE ANY RULES. Check it if you don't be believe me. Most of them don't have pinned topics. The 5200 one locked thread recently which was the "5200 vs. Coleco" thread which was closed because "It was becoming a Jaguar thread". I thought that said volumes. The 8-bit forum has a pinned topic, and that is "restoration of hardware" thread. What did I learn from this? First off, we need to ask ourselves, who is actually the moderator of this forum? Is it Al? Al is the one who locks down threads and I don't see anyone else doing it. But who is actually the moderator here? Second, I would submit to them to replace a negative like "rules" since no other Atari hardware thread had one, and replace it with a FAQ like the Atari 8-bit has. In that FAQ I would put in there ways to get CD units working, parts you need to replace when you use a wrong power supply on the Jaguar, ways to back up CD's for preservation, good places to start when looking for programming resources, will there be another Skunkboard run? Etc. I am on a Newton list and that approach has worked very well. People ask questions, we refer them to the FAQ. So if put in the FAQ how to back up discs, when that question gets asked rather than it getting locked, we could just say "Check out the FAQ, let us know if you have any questions beyond that." So what do we want? To be like the other Atari forums. How do we get there? Remove the rules thread. What do we replace it with? A positive, a frequently asked question thread. Or replace it with nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 So what do we want? To be like the other Atari forums.How do we get there? Remove the rules thread. What do we replace it with? A positive, a frequently asked question thread. Or replace it with nothing at all. I think you have made this a much easier decision for the moderator with your excellent recommendations. Bravo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyBuddies Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Ill volunteer to be a moderator on this forum. Id help crack down on the pro-piracy people. Vote for me,vote BuddyBuddies for Jaguar forum moderator! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
promethea Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Ill volunteer to be a moderator on this forum. Id help crack down on the pro-piracy people. Vote for me,vote BuddyBuddies for Jaguar forum moderator! Requesting for previous message, as well as this one, to be deleted from this thread as being totally irrelevant to the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christos Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I think that the best choice for a jag subforum moderator, would be someone who has never touched a jag in his life, has never visited this forum and who will just apply common sense to the threads. He also needs to have a strong stomach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Ill volunteer to be a moderator on this forum. Id help crack down on the pro-piracy people. Vote for me,vote BuddyBuddies for Jaguar forum moderator! It's OK having a laugh now & again, and that certainly is laughable, but come on, this is a serious subject & we're doing out best to keep it focused, please don't foul your bowl again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddyBuddies Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Ill volunteer to be a moderator on this forum. Id help crack down on the pro-piracy people. Vote for me,vote BuddyBuddies for Jaguar forum moderator! It's OK having a laugh now & again, and that certainly is laughable, but come on, this is a serious subject & we're doing out best to keep it focused, please don't foul your bowl again. I was serious... To help Albert out on the Jaguar forum here on Atariage,im volunteering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagMod Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 If devs don't want their stuff copied, put up a disclaimer, make it known, the vast majority of people will respect that because they respect the effort of the devs. The few that won't were likely not going to be customers & more likely to be rom collectors who just aren't worth the effort of considering. It's illegal to host roms without the 'dev's permission. The 'devs' must first give permission to host their roms before it becomes legal. Stop saying its ok to pirate until the owner tracks you down and tells you to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kZa- Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) I'll reply to the bits that were on topic or made sense respnding to my message... ...poof... As Champloo said, BOOM! Edited June 27, 2009 by -kZa- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) Ill volunteer to be a moderator on this forum. Id help crack down on the pro-piracy people. That's nice of you, but I think the minority views of the few have already been represented here at AA in this thread. Edited June 27, 2009 by remowilliams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgenthe Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) It's illegal to host roms without the 'dev's permission.The 'devs' must first give permission to host their roms before it becomes legal. Stop saying its ok to pirate until the owner tracks you down and tells you to stop. That is part of the point doctorclu is trying to make. AA already hosts hundreds of roms without permission. You can download nearly the entire 2600, 5200, and 7800 game libraries. You can even sort the game lists by whether or not a rom is available! It's strange that AA hosts roms for Atari's other systems, yet does not allow any type of Jaguar backing-up, piracy, grey area, discussions. Edited June 27, 2009 by kgenthe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickybaby Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I'm not into the "Jaguar Scene" and have never really got into playing the system other then testing it and the CD to make sure they work before selling and watching someone else play. I do however think that this thread itself shows why no matter what decision would be made someone or a group of people would be vocal about not being happy about it. Even being able to differentiate that system as having it's own "scene" sets it apart. Which is probably why things stand as they are. General Chat also does have strict rules posted btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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