My Views on Homebrewer authors and their games

[Curt Vendel]

Hi All,

 

I've been having a good conversation on JSII.... I decided that even though it is staying a private forum, that if I'm going to post on the Jag forum on Atariage and I'm going to post on the Freejag forums, that in all fairness that I also return to posting on JSII which is also important as now people on JSII also now more properly and clearly where I stand on my points of view, my disappointments with the Jag community and my suggestions on possible idea's for help.

 

Now, Doug (Thunderbird) and I have been going back and forth. Many know Doug is a formidable individual to argue with, as I am, so its a good productive exchange.

 

Doug pointed out how I should point out some things, so let me make a very clear point for one and all:

 

 

1. I do not, nor have I ever supported, or agree with or will side with anyone who condones or participates in the assisting of copying and/or posting of any homebrewers work on any platform. On the Jaguar in particular I would consider that to start from Battlesphere forward since Battlesphere was independently completed and independently published by 4Play for the Jaguar.

 

Previously published games through Atari Corp and put out on the Jag, I have no comment or care for. The companies were paid for their coding, Atari made their money from the sales of those games, the games are no longer made or sold for a platform no longer made or sold, so what happens with those titles is of no concern or care to me.

 

My sole main concern is current, active homebrew authors titles and their rights. ONLY the homebrewer authors themselves have the SOLE and EXCLUSIVE right to decide if/when or at all that their title should or could be posted for public usage. It is their property and no one, no matter what their feelings, belief or views of another author - no matter the reason or cause (this is a NO EXCUSE RULE) should have the right to release another persons work.

 

I will not listen to for even one millisecond someone trying to justify the actions of posting another person's active homebrew title without the author's express written permission, there is ZERO justification.

 

NO:

 

"He was mean"

"They said bad things about us"

"They stole our code first" (2 wrongs don't make a right, just makes bigger wrongs)

"They hurt our sales"

"we had the idea for that game first"

 

blah blah blah.... there is no excuse under ANY circumstances, if they killed your cat and punctured all the tires on your car, I don't care - it doesn't justify ANY reason to release another authors code without their permission.

 

So this post is to make my feelings EXCEPTIONALLY clear on this particular subject.

 

 

Curt

[carmel_andrews]

Point well put curt, and as a principle and ideal i agree totally with you, however look at the following examples

 

Lotus 123

 

Windows vs Mac O/S

 

Super Mario Brothers

 

Pacman/Phoenix etc

 

I cite these examples because the companies concerned sued other software companies because they (the companies being sued) were releasing software that had the 'look and feel' of the software put out by the company doing the suing

 

Now going back to your point that you articulated it would mean that the original software author could theoretically claim to have pioneered a particular programming technique (i.e software based hardware tricks etc) or a particular gaming genre etc, and if we follow that to the letter it would theoretically mean that that author could lock out anyone else from that particular programming technique or gaming genre (effectively carving up the market for him/her self)

 

Now if we follow the history of 3rd party gaming development apart from those rare cases, i.e the SMB one pointed out as above or the Activision/US Gold one over R-Type and i am sure their were others, there has been a history of games publishers or companies borrowing or cloning or being inspired by programming techniques or gaming genre's etc put out by other companies

 

And if we followed the points you made to the letter, the concept of a '3rd party games development' market would'nt actually exist as such, because the likes of activision and imagic would'nt actually exist as atari/mattel etc would claim copyright on any gaming genre or programming technique that both companies came up with

 

So we have to be very careful about what we do in protecting the original authors work/code etc as it would encompass the very aspects of games development and designing that i pointed out and the last thing i think we all want is one person/company dominating the games market for jaguar, or any other atari flavour/platform of that matter (i.e having the warners 'atari' attitude to anyone else developing a game for an or any atari machine)

 

I can cite a couple of classic examples

 

Star Raiders vs elite...which was adapted from both Star Trek and also a text based game called 'Hammaburi/Hammurabi'

 

Miner 2049r...which is basically a platformy version of Pacman...i.e you have to shade in the groundwork (in pacman you collect the small dots) to complete the level, and the power up's in miner 2049r have the same effect as the power pills in pacman

 

Now since star raiders was essentyually based on the star trek text game, why did'nt the people behind that text game sue atari over star raiders, since it was essentually the same type of game and subsequently, since elite was inspired by the star raiders/star trek type space game why didn't atari or the people behind the star trek text game sue acorn or firebird (who own the rights to the non acorn/bbc versions of elite)

 

And similarly why didn't Atari sue big 5 over Miner 2049r, since it is an adaption from and borrows concepts/ideas from pacman (or as i said essentually a platformy version of pacman)

 

I guess atari didn't sue in either case because the could see that it would essentually 'stifle' or limit/restrict creativity within the very industry they purportedly created as well as continued games development (i.e both technology, techinques and gaming genres)

 

So there has to be a balance between protecting the original authors work/code etc and not restricting/limiting creativity or development of new games (including new programming techniques and gaming genre's etc)

 

Please note, i am all for protecting the programmers right to original works or code however, following it to the letter creates a dangerous precident (i.e going back to the warners 'atari' attitude to games development on the atari)...look at it another way, take for instance the music industry, if we took away all the artists that basically covered music/lyrics etc from other artists or had tracks that sounded musically similar to other artists, i bet you could count the total number of music artists on one pair of hands and feet...i think you know where i am coming from

[kevincal]

I have an opinion on why many people don't have a problem with piracy on the Jag. This is not my opinion, but rather what I think the opinion is of these people (I'm good at putting myself in others shoes )

 

It all boils down to price. A lot of the Jag "homebrews" are just plain and simply over priced. So, many people feel like they are being ripped off, so in their mind it justifies the want to pirate. Now many homebrewers game prices are perfectly fair and even some give their games for free, which is simply awesome. But others prices are indeed inflated to take advantage of the small Jag community which thirsts for new products, simply cus they love the Jag and Jag community.

 

So to the pirates, stop and think about all the hard work the homebrew devs put into their beloved game, and try to forgive if it is considerably overpriced as most likely that dev just wants their game to stand out and become a collector's item to attempt to make their precious game have some meaning (For all of the days of hard work it took to make the game). These devs invest their hard work and money to create this product, so it only makes sense they want to get as much out of it as possible (Though many Jag homebrews are overpriced)

 

Then to the devs. Before you price your game, keep in mind that you would most likely make more profit by selling your game at a reasonable price and selling more copies of it, rather than jacking the price sky high and sitting on lots of copies for years. Are you purposely trying to make your game more rare and valuable this way? Most of us poor Jag fans are just that, POOR! Or damn near it, especially nowadays, who in the world can afford a game that costs over $50?! Not many people I think...

 

In the end, I am against piracy but I am also against gamers being taken advantage of with over pricing. A middle ground should be met.

 

Think of the music CD industry. Remember back in the early 90's when CD's costed $20!? Then people found out exactly how cheap it is to produce CD's and thus began the mass pirating in the mid to late 90's. Then what happened? CD's starting selling for more reasonable prices, more like $10. Unfortunately I believe pirating is sort of a necessary evil, to counterbalance the greediness of sellers who overprice, which in reality is almost as bad as pirating.

Edited September 25, 2009 by kevincal

[Curt Vendel]

Carmel,

 

I think you're confusing points of view. Having similar competing products is perfectly fine. In fact its necessary in a free market to create competition, companies are then forced to either improve their products to make them better then the competitors or lose their sales. In the end, its the consumer that wins from competition.

 

 

To put things into your point of view, what I am saying is Lotus can't freely give away copies of Visicalc, Apple can't give away free copies of Windows. Its not their product, therefor not their property or right to do so.

 

If Apple decides to post up OSX11 next year for free, that is there decision and right. However if Apple releases OSX11 for sale only, no copying, someone buys a copy, makes an image of it, then posts it up onto websites to download for free and Apple has barely even started selling copies, that is just flat out wrong....

 

So going back on track to homebrewers - these are small independent developers/publishers. The games they write are theirs, they have the sole discretion on what and how they do with their games.

 

Some homebrewers freely release their games as downloads as they just wanted to make a game and post it. Perfectly fine.

 

Some homebrewers will do the same thing, then later one announce they will sell special boxed editions, take orders or pre-orders, and sell physical copies, again - perfectly fine.

 

Some will announce a game, release in cart form and sell them - also totally fine.

 

That's all their choice, their right, their product...

 

What isn't right is to on the third example - the homebrewer was doing a sales only, cartridge only release of the game, someone takes the code from the cart, copies it and posts it without the homebrew authors permission. Perhaps this homebrew author spent thousands in custom boxes, manuals, buying cartridge plastics, pcb's, paying someone to assemble them and so forth, a lot of time, money and commitment. Do to the premature and unauthorized release that homebrew author who had, lets say - 500 cartridges, now only sold 350 of them instead of selling more like 450-500 of them, his sales were hurt and now he is sitting with cartridges that may eventually get sold over time, but would've sold faster if someone hadn't of released his game without his permission. Now he is stuck with unsold inventory and lots of money out of his pocket - wrong on all levels.

 

This is why I recommended that in the future the Pre-order sales approach may be better for homebrewers with very tight budgets, they can release in batches to confirmed buyers and only make what they know they will sell. In either case, the moral here is the game belongs to the author, only the author has the right to decide is a game should be publicly posted, no one else should take that priviledge away from them.

 

 

 

Curt

Edited September 25, 2009 by Curt Vendel

[BuddyBuddies]

100% Agree with Curt! JAGUAR RULES!

[+save2600]

Not knowing the entire story, I fully agree with Curt. Wrong is wrong - period.

 

Having said that, maybe it's time for some of these homebrew authors to pull their heads

out of their arses. We talked about this 10 years ago. Why the same games are still being

sold (or not!) at the same ridiculous prices is beyond me. Buy or not. Sell or not. If pirating

becomes a huge issue, either lower your prices (first common sense step) or sell an

overpriced flash cartridge so you can still cash in on "your" games.

[Curt Vendel]

I have offered suggestions and I've been blunt and flat out said that some of the current ways of selling are risky and I have even pushed a little hard to call it stupid to take such risks. Apparently many feel that the same old, same old is the way that should still be followed, even with all of the risk.

 

Cost is cost, its up to the authors to choose the prices, but maybe instead of complaining about the costs - lets discuss in a separate topic and discuss ways to greatly cost reduce the cost of making carts, labels, boxes, etc... It seems it would be smart - irregardless of points of view, past arguments and such - that developers consider talking with Albert - he has honestly done a very impressive job in streamlining and cost reducing cartridge based products and while he may not get directly involved in production, I'm sure he could have some very good input on pointing people in the right directions to having lower cost overhead on doing carts, labels, boxes, manuals and such which I'm sure would benefit everyone.

 

I am personally investing in a wave solder machine shortly and this will allow running pcbs on a short guide track through a machine that will solder all connection points on a PCB in 5 seconds. This means that in 10-12 board batches a whole run of say 500 pcbs an afternoon. It also vastly improves quality with consistent solder joints. So I will offer this service next month for people who need PCBs for carts made (not just Jag, but any small pcb's)

 

If the physical costs can be reduced on the carts, then it really comes down to the coders deciding how much per cartridge to charge. So if the cartridges come down, then I would hope that $80 carts would be a thing of the past, hopefully.

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

 

Not knowing the entire story, I fully agree with Curt. Wrong is wrong - period.

 

Having said that, maybe it's time for some of these homebrew authors to pull their heads

out of their arses. We talked about this 10 years ago. Why the same games are still being

sold (or not!) at the same ridiculous prices is beyond me. Buy or not. Sell or not. If pirating

becomes a huge issue, either lower your prices (first common sense step) or sell an

overpriced flash cartridge so you can still cash in on "your" games.

[CPUWIZ]

I am personally investing in a wave solder machine shortly and this will allow running pcbs on a short guide track through a machine that will solder all connection points on a PCB in 5 seconds. This means that in 10-12 board batches a whole run of say 500 pcbs an afternoon. It also vastly improves quality with consistent solder joints. So I will offer this service next month for people who need PCBs for carts made (not just Jag, but any small pcb's)

 

[doctorclu]

1. I do not, nor have I ever supported, or agree with or will side with anyone who condones or participates in the assisting of copying and/or posting of any homebrewers work on any platform. On the Jaguar in particular I would consider that to start from Battlesphere forward since Battlesphere was independently completed and independently published by 4Play for the Jaguar.

 

Previously published games through Atari Corp and put out on the Jag, I have no comment or care for. The companies were paid for their coding, Atari made their money from the sales of those games, the games are no longer made or sold for a platform no longer made or sold, so what happens with those titles is of no concern or care to me.

 

My sole main concern is current, active homebrew authors titles and their rights. ONLY the homebrewer authors themselves have the SOLE and EXCLUSIVE right to decide if/when or at all that their title should or could be posted for public usage. It is their property and no one, no matter what their feelings, belief or views of another author - no matter the reason or cause (this is a NO EXCUSE RULE) should have the right to release another persons work.

 

Really good guidelines I think, and generally the way a lot of other Atari platforms go about the way they do things.

[carmel_andrews]

I think you missed the point i was making Curt

 

As I recall it, Apple tried to sue MS over windows because it had certain interfaces and functionality very close to what apple where doing with their O/S for their MAC systems (even though Apple themselves half inched the idea of a GUI based o/s from Xerox)

 

Also, Nintendo sued Rainbow Arts over Great Giana sisters because of it's similarity with a certain Nintendo game that nintendo were bundling with the 8/16bit gaming systems

 

Additionally, the Pacman/Phoenix scenario, where Atari were suing Magnovox, Activision and even commodore over their variants of Pacman due to the similarity with the arcade version that atari apparently owned the home gaming rights to (because of the suit against magnavox, it made 'KC Munchkin' Videogame's first 'collectable') and suing Imagic over it's demon attack and it's similarity with the arcade game 'phoenix' and that Atari apparently had the home gaming rights to it

 

And the most famous case in recent times being the 'Tetris' Affair, and i still don't know whether that particular case was ever resolved

 

The reason why the likes of magnavox/imagic etc being sued by atari and rainbow arts being sued by nintendo are because the functionality and design/look and feel of the pacman/phoenix/super mario games were being copied by the companies selling the 'clones' and the rights holder(s) felt that these clone(s) were impinging not just on their properties and rights, they also felt these clone somehow used ultered versions of their game genres/game engines and also lost sales as a result (remembering that functionality, look and feel as well as the overall games design/engine etc is integral to the whole games programming concept)

 

The point being that when a games programmer programs any game (including the graphics, sound, logic, game engine, look and feel design etc) it means that everything in that game is their rights and property which basically means that no-one else is allowed to impinge on any element of the game, be it, functionality, gaming genre, any of the gfx/msx routines, the game engine etc which is the point being made

 

Looks at it another way, lets take the concept of the First person shooter (FPS) type genre/game engine, which unless i am mistaken was established by ID software and their wolfenstein 3d game and then adapted to things like doom/quake scenario's also developed by ID software

 

Now going by your point, which i agree in principle with, as i said earlier, because ID software created this type of gaming genre/game engine etc they are the only company that's allowed to use it, because it's their concept,their work/code, their genre/game engine etc and it came from something they created themselves, which means that no-one else is allowed to use any elements of ID's games on their products

 

Now if that be true that no elements of ID's games are to be used in any form on someone elses products, then theoretically Half life and their ilk should'nt really exist as they borrow certain concepts and similarities with ID games, i.e the FPS genre, FPS game engine and look and feel or functionality which we both know comes as part of the programming (even if it does use slightly different code/graphics etc)

 

Which is why i mentioned about having a 'balance' between protecting the rights/properties concerning the original programmer/authors work/code etc and not limiting/restricting or stifling creativity within 3rd party games development (like i said, in relation to the warners 'atari' attitude to games development for atari systems)

 

After all, there is still gaming genre's or games engines not yet developed or conceived yet, now i am all for protecting the rights the original author/programmer has regarding all elements of his/her game etc, but that also encompasses any now functionality, engine, look and feel, design, genre, interface etc etc)

 

Would'nt it be a bit restricting having only a small handfull of people developing games for an atari platform because those people coded or wrote that particular functionality, interface, engine, programming technique etc etc, or would you rather have lots of people programming/developing games using similar functionality, interface, engine, programming technique etc etc but giving the original author or programmer of those ideas/concepts techniques etc due credit and/or perhaps cutting them in on a slice of the profits etc

 

And lest we forget even the very game that started this industry (pong) was copied from another game (tele/video tennis) I think we all know there's no real definative solution to this issue, if someone copies someone elses game somehow, someone looses a sale the only solution i can see is a system where anyone borrowing or cloning a partuclar programming technique, design feature, functionality, game genre/game engine etc etc gives due credit to the original author/programmer etc

 

I am still wondering whatever happened to those legions of space invaders, scramble, asteroids or pacman etc etc clones that decimated/dominated the games market in the early years of 3rd party games development

[Curt Vendel]

Carmel - to be honest what you are presenting here are IP infringments - look & feel, IP litigation for technologies, concepts and mechanics. I've testified in 3 IP litigation cases for some clients over the years, so I understand a bit about such things...

 

We are talking more in the lines of Copyright issues, Copyright violations and Copyright enforcement. When an author/homebrewer/independent developer releases a game - the very code of that game is theirs, they own the copyright to it. Now here is an important legal "CYA" (for lack of a better generalized term).... There have been loopholes that were legally exploited and fought in court by persons buying anything from a CD with songs to a game cartridge with a game on it in the past decades. While it may state "Audio/Video Contents Copyright of Company X" What happened was, in court cases, it was argued and in some cases won - that by buying the physical asset, that person now owned the asset and therefor had the right to do with as they wished. So in later years software came with licenses, and the license stated that by using the game, playing the music and so forth you agreed to the license and the licenses general stated that you were licensed solely to use the game/music, that it could be used on one device only, could not be copied, duplicated, etc... It became what we see today as a standard licensing protection. Its still debated and fought in courts even today, but with far better outcomes then prior cases involving older software that just carried a copyright, not a license of usage.

 

 

We are discussing here copyrights and ownership of games released in non PD formats and that the authors hold the sole decision and rights to the distribution and copying of their games and that no one under any circumstances - good, bad, just or otherwise in their own view - has absolutely ZERO right to copy and distributor a homebrew authors work without that persons written consent.

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

I think you missed the point i was making Curt

 

As I recall it, Apple tried to sue MS over windows because it had certain interfaces and functionality very close to what apple where doing with their O/S for their MAC systems (even though Apple themselves half inched the idea of a GUI based o/s from Xerox)

 

Also, Nintendo sued Rainbow Arts over Great Giana sisters because of it's similarity with a certain Nintendo game that nintendo were bundling with the 8/16bit gaming systems

 

Additionally, the Pacman/Phoenix scenario, where Atari were suing Magnovox, Activision and even commodore over their variants of Pacman due to the similarity with the arcade version that atari apparently owned the home gaming rights to (because of the suit against magnavox, it made 'KC Munchkin' Videogame's first 'collectable') and suing Imagic over it's demon attack and it's similarity with the arcade game 'phoenix' and that Atari apparently had the home gaming rights to it

 

And the most famous case in recent times being the 'Tetris' Affair, and i still don't know whether that particular case was ever resolved

 

The reason why the likes of magnavox/imagic etc being sued by atari and rainbow arts being sued by nintendo are because the functionality and design/look and feel of the pacman/phoenix/super mario games were being copied by the companies selling the 'clones' and the rights holder(s) felt that these clone(s) were impinging not just on their properties and rights, they also felt these clone somehow used ultered versions of their game genres/game engines and also lost sales as a result (remembering that functionality, look and feel as well as the overall games design/engine etc is integral to the whole games programming concept)

 

The point being that when a games programmer programs any game (including the graphics, sound, logic, game engine, look and feel design etc) it means that everything in that game is their rights and property which basically means that no-one else is allowed to impinge on any element of the game, be it, functionality, gaming genre, any of the gfx/msx routines, the game engine etc which is the point being made

 

Looks at it another way, lets take the concept of the First person shooter (FPS) type genre/game engine, which unless i am mistaken was established by ID software and their wolfenstein 3d game and then adapted to things like doom/quake scenario's also developed by ID software

 

Now going by your point, which i agree in principle with, as i said earlier, because ID software created this type of gaming genre/game engine etc they are the only company that's allowed to use it, because it's their concept,their work/code, their genre/game engine etc and it came from something they created themselves, which means that no-one else is allowed to use any elements of ID's games on their products

 

Now if that be true that no elements of ID's games are to be used in any form on someone elses products, then theoretically Half life and their ilk should'nt really exist as they borrow certain concepts and similarities with ID games, i.e the FPS genre, FPS game engine and look and feel or functionality which we both know comes as part of the programming (even if it does use slightly different code/graphics etc)

 

Which is why i mentioned about having a 'balance' between protecting the rights/properties concerning the original programmer/authors work/code etc and not limiting/restricting or stifling creativity within 3rd party games development (like i said, in relation to the warners 'atari' attitude to games development for atari systems)

 

After all, there is still gaming genre's or games engines not yet developed or conceived yet, now i am all for protecting the rights the original author/programmer has regarding all elements of his/her game etc, but that also encompasses any now functionality, engine, look and feel, design, genre, interface etc etc)

 

Would'nt it be a bit restricting having only a small handfull of people developing games for an atari platform because those people coded or wrote that particular functionality, interface, engine, programming technique etc etc, or would you rather have lots of people programming/developing games using similar functionality, interface, engine, programming technique etc etc but giving the original author or programmer of those ideas/concepts techniques etc due credit and/or perhaps cutting them in on a slice of the profits etc

 

And lest we forget even the very game that started this industry (pong) was copied from another game (tele/video tennis) I think we all know there's no real definative solution to this issue, if someone copies someone elses game somehow, someone looses a sale the only solution i can see is a system where anyone borrowing or cloning a partuclar programming technique, design feature, functionality, game genre/game engine etc etc gives due credit to the original author/programmer etc

 

I am still wondering whatever happened to those legions of space invaders, scramble, asteroids or pacman etc etc clones that decimated/dominated the games market in the early years of 3rd party games development

[jaybird3rd]

Very good points, especially about the need to reduce the cost of homebrew game production for the Jaguar. Finding and supporting a method of manufacturing games more cheaply would widen the Jaguar audience and attract more developers, which would bring the economics of the Jaguar more in line with the rest of the Atari consoles. This can only benefit everyone.

 

It's a pity that Atari's original Jaguar CD drive is so scarce. If a cheaper alternative to it could be developed (something like an improved Memory Track cartridge equipped with a USB port for connecting an external optical drive, for example), it would bring the per-unit cost of homebrew games down considerably--cheaper than that of any other Atari console, in fact--since new games could be distributed on common CD-R discs, or even downloaded and burned to CD by the users themselves. One would have to buy such an add-on first, of course, but the games themselves would be so much cheaper that it would quickly pay for itself.

 

I want to anticipate what is likely to be the first objection to this idea because it will allow me to transition to other issues I'd like Jaguar developers to consider (and I don't intend to stir up yet another controversy with any of this; these are merely my own opinions). Couldn't an add-on like the one I've described also make it easier to pirate games? Yes, it could. It's very likely that any new technology that makes it cheaper and easier to develop, manufacture, and distribute Jaguar games will probably also make it easier to pirate them, whether that is the intention or not. I think Curt's stated views on piracy are absolutely correct, and I would never argue against them. Having said all of that ... I find the level of heat and rigidity surrounding the piracy issue to be somewhat bizarre and totally out of proportion to the severity of the stated problem, and I think Jaguar developers need a major attitude adjustment. Their present stance is hurting the Jaguar, even as they claim to be protecting it.

 

In support of this observation, let us take a hard look at the recent output of Jaguar homebrew developers (without mentioning any names). In terms of production values, level of gameplay, and overall replay value, many of the releases I've seen aren't much more than what I would expect from Flash games that I can play for free all over the Internet. Aside for the quality of the audiovisuals, they aren't even that far beyond what is being produced nowadays for the Atari 2600 and 7800. And yet, these games sell for $60 a copy or more, a price structure that has survived only because the community understands the difficulties involved in producing these games. But if a new idea emerges that can make development or distribution easier (such as a flash cart or other "controversial" products like the ones discussed in the past here on AtariAge, usually in heated threads that eventually had to be locked), it is instantly resisted and denounced by Jaguar developers, supposedly because it would lead to rampant piracy of their games. I look at the games in question, and I look at the microscopic size of the Jaguar market (at least compared to the 2600 market, where homebrew games are regularly posted for free after they have run their course commercially), and I can't see either the motivation or the demand for piracy at the levels they claim to exist. And when I look at the overheated anti-piracy rhetoric of the developers, I also can't help but wonder about what kevincal and save2600 alluded to earlier: what are these developers really trying to protect? Are they protecting their "hard-earned profits," or are they protecting the "$60 a pop for mediocre games" racket they've got going?

 

Nobody is claiming that piracy is right, but developers can't claim on the one hand to be unduly affected by piracy because of the small size of the Jaguar market, and on the other hand take actions that deliberately bar entry into the market and keep prices artificially high. If you want to increase sales, costs have to come down. If costs are to come down, the Jaguar market needs to grow. If the market is to grow, if new developers and new collectors are to favor the Jaguar over other Atari consoles as their "classic platform of choice," Jaguar developers need to offer something better. This means better games, better methods of distribution (such as the preorder model), and whenever possible, better and more convenient media than expensive old-fashioned EEPROM cartridges, such as optical media and downloads to flash carts or multi-carts.

 

It would be unfortunate if any of these alternatives are summarily rejected by Jaguar developers, with potentially exciting opportunities for the Jaguar being extinguished in the process, merely because of the remote possibility that somebody might even begin to think about exploiting them in order to engage in piracy. Developers and collectors would then have every reason to move on to other consoles like the 2600 instead: the prices are lower, the community is friendlier, the games are better, and there aren't nearly as many obstacles to development and distribution. I think the Jaguar deserves better.

[Zerosquare]

Something has been bothering me for a long time, and I'd like to make it clear.

 

Everyone keeps talking about "Jaguar developers this" and "Jaguar developers that". There is NO SUCH THING.

 

Despite what some may want you to believe, there is no common opinion shared by every developer, and there is no elected leader which could claim to represent the interests of everyone. Additionally, the fact that some developers prefer no to get involved in the debates doesn't mean they agree with what is said on their behalf.

 

Please remember that posters only represent their own opinion, not the one of Jaguar developers as a whole, regardless of what they may claim. Consequently, if you're disappointed or angry about what they say, discuss it with them ; don't lump everyone together.

[viMaster]

...

I won't quote your whole post, but make one point.

 

There is already a sort of flashcart out there for developers to utilize. It's called the skunkboard and it's been accepted by the community as a means of development and game distribution.

Hopefully, developers realize this and begin creating games for it.

[Fadest]

Something has been bothering me for a long time, and I'd like to make it clear.

 

Everyone keeps talking about "Jaguar developers this" and "Jaguar developers that". There is NO SUCH THING.

 

Despite what some may want you to believe, there is no common opinion shared by every developer, and there is no elected leader which could claim to represent the interests of everyone. Additionally, the fact that some developers prefer no to get involved in the debates doesn't mean they agree with what is said on their behalf.

 

Please remember that posters only represent their own opinion, not the one of Jaguar developers as a whole, regardless of what they may claim. Consequently, if you're disappointed or angry about what they say, discuss it with them ; don't lump everyone together.

 

In fact, I guess that every Jag developer agree on the basis stated by Curt (do not stole active developer work, respect their wishes), but it seems that some don't want to agree we all agree

[Mord]

...

I won't quote your whole post, but make one point.

 

There is already a sort of flashcart out there for developers to utilize. It's called the skunkboard and it's been accepted by the community as a means of development and game distribution.

Hopefully, developers realize this and begin creating games for it.

 

That of course depends on whether developers feel it's useful or sufficient for their needs. If it isn't, then they should be free to develop alternatives. If it is, bonus.

[carmel_andrews]

Curt

 

That is a problem that has been in the whole industry (not just exclusive to the jaguar) since the year dot...i.e publisher A doing a faxsmile or copy of publisher B's game or product...It was one of the main reasons if not THE main reason behind the so called VG crasgh of 1983, as so many companies were more interested in playing safe by copying someone elses game and just altering the graphics/sound etc etc, instead of being creative and innovative and coming up with something new themselves

 

And lifting any content from a program/game be it the graphics or the sound or whatever, is still IP (Intellectual property) which is as you pointed out protected under copyright law

 

Just like in the music biz, either the music, lyrics or backing track etc is IP protected under copyright law

 

IP and copyright are like a double act, you can't copyright something unless you designed/thought or created it yourself and if your designed/thought of or created it yourself then it is legally and technically your intellectual property and also your copyright(assuming that we are talking about the originator of the design/creation or concept)

 

Also it depends what you define as homebrew, is homebrew a commercial offering or is it PD/user written offerings, as there seems to be some difference of opinion in various circles, some people define homebrew as commercial and some people define homebrew as PD or user written offerings

 

If you define homebrew as commercial then there is no issue behind copyright, if you define homebrew as PD/user written offerings, then there might be an issue regarding copyright, reason being is that technically and legally any content be it music, video, software, text etc if it is released in PD format you cannot copyright it as by default you cannot copyright something that has been put in the public domain (same goes for patents as well)

 

Only way you will stop people copying games etc is by coming up with better copy protection and data encyption systems on that particular medium (in this case Cartridge mainly), unless the people trying to copy that particular game/program have that decryption key or know how to bypass the copy protection, you won't deter all the copies, but you will deter at least the majority...downside to this is, it costs more money and if jaguar games are costing 50 gbp/usd or whatever...i dunno what the solution is

 

I do see one solution, ...i won't discuss it here as we cannot/are not allowed to discuss these things on this forum of atariage, but at least the music industry is starting to embrace it

[MCHufnagel]

My personal opinion is that the Jag community needs a fully capable emulator. Until people can find out about what the Jag has to offer without needing to invest much time or money into it, it will never grow. The trouble is that the people who have the skill of creating one either won't do it, or if they have already created one, won't release it. Homebrewers could sell their games via digital downloads for working emulator, or at least have demos available. Contrary to naysayers, emulation won't hurt the scene. Hell, emulation is what created the modern demand for "retro" games. The only people who might be affected are the ebayers. The developers long ago abandoned everything about the Jaguar. They aren't making a cent off of any Jag sale today.

Edited September 29, 2009 by MCHufnagel

[GroovyBee]

The developers long ago abandoned everything about the Jaguar. They aren't making a cent off of any Jag sale today.

You mean the commercial developers active during the console's heyday? There are active homebrew developers for the console.

[kool kitty89]

Good points as usual, Curt.

 

 

 

Carmel,

And the most famous case in recent times being the 'Tetris' Affair, and i still don't know whether that particular case was ever resolved

 

I think that had mainly to do with the creator having no invvidual rights on the property so it got distributed freely, then ened up getting "licenced" throughout Europe, but it got big enough for the Soviet government to take notice and they claimed legal ownership, effectively voiding the current "licences" and then Nintendo beat everyone else to the punch and secured the rights to game console versions, with a licence for the computer versions being left for others. (and also made sure that a computer was definined as having a keyboard iirc) Atari Games (Tengen) had previously acquired one of the rather meaningless "licences" from a European company prior to the snafu with the Russian government.

 

Looks at it another way, lets take the concept of the First person shooter (FPS) type genre/game engine, which unless i am mistaken was established by ID software and their wolfenstein 3d game and then adapted to things like doom/quake scenario's also developed by ID software

 

Hmm, Midi Maze is the earliest commercial example of a FPS I can think of, and considerably earlier than id's Wolf3D (or slightly earlier catacomb 3D), coming out for the Atari ST in 1987, and inginuitively using the ST's midi ports for networked gameplay. (it also later resurfaced under the name Faceball 2000) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_Maze

There were even earlier examples though, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_person_shooter#Early_first_person_shooters:_1970s_and_1980s

Edited September 29, 2009 by kool kitty89

[MCHufnagel]

The developers long ago abandoned everything about the Jaguar. They aren't making a cent off of any Jag sale today.

You mean the commercial developers active during the console's heyday? There are active homebrew developers for the console.

Well of course. This thread is about homebrews.

 

Honestly though, does anyone get into homebrewing with the intent to make money?

[Tyrant]

The developers long ago abandoned everything about the Jaguar. They aren't making a cent off of any Jag sale today.

You mean the commercial developers active during the console's heyday? There are active homebrew developers for the console.

No developer is making money from Jaguar games, nor will they, ever again.

 

Sure, you might make a small profit over the cost of materials, maybe even the time taken to assemble each cart... but NOBODY is going to make a profit when you factor in the cost of the developer-hours it takes to code a game on this beast.

 

That single fact alone is what makes the whole "OMG PIRATES! OH NOES!" bullshit so meaningless and frankly retarded.

[doctorclu]

Some would argue they the Jag didn't make profit before it was cancelled much less afterwards.

[disjaukifa]

The developers long ago abandoned everything about the Jaguar. They aren't making a cent off of any Jag sale today.

You mean the commercial developers active during the console's heyday? There are active homebrew developers for the console.

Well of course. This thread is about homebrews.

 

Honestly though, does anyone get into homebrewing with the intent to make money?

 

I'm looking into doing a bit of Homebrew for the Jaguar, currently working on a 2600 game, I do it for two reasons:

 

1. I love the systems and I have a passion for wanting to make games for them

2. Its neat to have said "Hey I released a game for XXXXX system on a real Cartridge!!!" (Maybe that one is just me . . . )

 

Now would it be nice to make a little off the cartridges you sell, say after cost of the carts, and selling them your up a couple hundred bucks or just a 100 bucks, yeah it would be nice. However the question was "Honestly though, does anyone get into homebrewing with the intent to make money?" and for me that would be no.

 

I'm in it to give a new game to a system that I love. Thats it nothing more.

 

Now I totally agree that there should be a flash based cartridge that should be fairly cheap to build so that devs could release their games onto, it would lower the prices of Homebrew Jaguar games. I like to see 20 ~ 35 buck homebrew Jaguar games based on what comes with it. If its a cart only then 20 ~ 25, if it comes with box and manual 30 ~ 35. However I release this completely depends on how cheap the flashcard boards can be made. There are some homebrews for the Jaguar I despreately want but I simple can't afford . . . they cost more than what I paid for the Jaguar itself!!!

 

I think it would be wise to do something similar to what Albert and Batari and the others have done with the Harmony/Meldoy. Harmony is available to anyone plain and simple. However Melody can be bought with a .bin preloaded onto it. The hardware to actually install the .bins onto the Melody will only be available except to Batari, Albert, and the rest of the guys who built it. This way the Melody can't be used to easily make and sell pirate games.

 

Please I am not saying this is a perfect solution or that I full support, however it does reduce piracy, reduce cost, and increase easy of development for the Atari 2600 which seems to be the concern and here with the Jaguar.

 

I think the Skunkboard is a great example. I think we need a Skunkboard / Porcupineboard (heheh if that name is used I think that would be so kewl) where the Skunkboard is for the dev and anyone can buy it and the Porcupineboard can be bought with the game image installed onto it, but it does not have USB anything on it and make it so you need special software/hardware to put a game onto it. Again not saying I totally agree with 100% (though I do think its a good idea) but it would reduce cost and be beneficial to anyone. Also if anyone want to through the argument well I just want to get a blank Porcupineboard, just say hey get a Skunkboard it does everything you need with a simpler and easier interface.

 

That way anyone can develop for the system and then there is already hardware available to put the games onto the hardware. Again not saying its the best system, just one that would work. It would reduce cost and would help development.

 

Right now I am more inclined to develop for the 2600 not because the code is easier but because publishing is just so much easier. Again I'm not in it to make money, but I like release stuff on real hardware (again that might just be me though). Albert, Batari, and the rest of the guys have created a system that makes publishing homebrews for the 2600 just simple. You know your game will run on the Melody because you developed it with Harmony.

 

I can't test code via emulation for the Jaguar right now because I run Mac OS X, yes I know thats my choice, so I had to get a skunkboard which will do exactly what I want.

 

Does emulation need to improve on Jaguar . . yes but to me you can't truly develop a game without testing it constantly on the system its intended to run on.

 

Just my two cents from a new developer to the system

 

-Disjaukifa

Edited September 30, 2009 by disjaukifa

[GroovyBee]

Now I totally agree that there should be a flash based cartridge that should be fairly cheap to build so that devs could release their games onto, it would lower the prices of Homebrew Jaguar games. I like to see 20 ~ 35 buck homebrew Jaguar games based on what comes with it. If its a cart only then 20 ~ 25, if it comes with box and manual 30 ~ 35. However I release this completely depends on how cheap the flashcard boards can be made. There are some homebrews for the Jaguar I despreately want but I simple can't afford . . . they cost more than what I paid for the Jaguar itself!!!

 

Good luck supplying a homebrew cart, manual and box for $30-$35. Given the quantities involved you aren't going to get close to that price point. If you do, you'll have developers and console fans beating your door down.