49 replies to this topic

[JamesD]

BTW, I doubt Chris Curry was the only person they consulted with on this story.
And don't forget the public fight made the papers.

[cool110]

Ross PK, on Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:21 PM, said:

Jay Silverheels, on Fri Oct 9, 2009 11:55 AM, said:

"Currently BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only, but all BBC iPlayer Radio programmes are available to you."

That's a real shame. I can't understand why they don't make it available to other countries.

There are however 3 or 4 short clips of it on Youtube at the moment.

Because you haven't paid your £142.50 a year

[vcsdream]

cool110, on Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

Ross PK, on Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:21 PM, said:

Jay Silverheels, on Fri Oct 9, 2009 11:55 AM, said:

"Currently BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only, but all BBC iPlayer Radio programmes are available to you."

That's a real shame. I can't understand why they don't make it available to other countries.

There are however 3 or 4 short clips of it on Youtube at the moment.

Because you haven't paid your £142.50 a year

$200 a year TV license for under average television? You guys been had.

[Retro Rogue]

Interesting, looks like a UK "Pirates of Silicon Valley". Some sources said it may be available on BBC America soon.

[carmel_andrews]

JamesD, on Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:57 PM, said:

BTW, I doubt Chris Curry was the only person they consulted with on this story.
And don't forget the public fight made the papers.

Yeah, I wonder who won that one, reminds of that classic Ali/foreman fight 'rumble in the jungle'....accept this time in a pub (full of customers)...probably thought it was part of 'early 80's pub entertainment' (remember that karoake hadn't quite reached these shores yet)

[Herbarius]

I've seen it yesterday and really liked it. I expected something more like a documentary with individual scenes being re-enacted, but a whole movie like that, it really impressed me.

I'm from Germany, however I still could get in the mood while watching it, I even laughed a couple of times. And of course, nice to learn something about the history of home computers in Great Britain, of course I knew what a ZX Spectrum is, but I never before heard of the BBC Micro, or the company Acorn.

Seems home computers have been quite strong [read: popular] in Europe, quite more so than in the USA, or am I getting a wrong impression here? Maybe it's just Britain and Germany...

Edited by Herbarius, Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:53 PM.

[JamesD]

Herbarius, on Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:39 PM, said:

Seems home computers have been quite strong [read: popular] in Europe, quite more so than in the USA, or am I getting a wrong impression here? Maybe it's just Britain and Germany...

The video says the UK lead the world but the US was actually the single largest market for home computers in the world.

Strict FCC requirements made it difficult for companies to introduce their machines in the US so we didn't get as many different companies in our market.
Many companies tried to import machines but they failed FCC testing. Testing was also VERY expensive (I heard over $10000 for each time) and if a company didn't get it right the first time the proposition of redesigning the product and possibly failing again was more than most companies were willing to risk.

Apple didn't sell the II with an RF modulator so they didn't have to meet all the requirements.
A third party actually made RF modulators for it.

The TRS-80 Model 1 was actually pulled from the market because it didn't meet FCC requirements when fully expanded.
The all in one Model III didn't have as many cables outside the shielded case.

The US consumers also seemed pickier than their European counterparts. Every machine without a "proper" keyboard flopped in the US.
Magazine reviewers tended to be harsh on chicklet or rubber keyboards and all the buyers guides for computers leaned towards "real" keyboards and 16K of RAM for a minimum configuration. Each new generation of machine was expected to have more than the last and once the IBM

[JamesD]

I'm pretty sure the US had the most personal computers per capita in the early personal computer days and definitely the most machines overall.
Currently, the US has more personal computers than the next 7 countries combined and is 4th in per capita. The UK is 14th and Germany 17th in per capita.

http://www.nationmas...ters-per-capita

Edited by JamesD, Fri Nov 6, 2009 5:52 AM.

[vcsdream]

JamesD, on Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:01 AM, said:

Herbarius, on Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:39 PM, said:

Seems home computers have been quite strong [read: popular] in Europe, quite more so than in the USA, or am I getting a wrong impression here? Maybe it's just Britain and Germany...

The video says the UK lead the world

The Brits loved to exaggerate, ZX Spectrum sold 5 million machines worldwide and that's obviously far fetched too. I remember Maggy Thachter demonstrating the ZX to a bunch on Japanese and claiming 'with this computer we lead the world market'. But then, she always was a dreamer.

[vcsdream]

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

So ZX Spectrum sales 5 mill leaves C64 sales in UK approx 2 - 3 million (ZX outsold C64 in UK), so where did Commodore sell the other 15 million?
Although the best selling home computer (C64), obviously never sold 17 million (as stated on Wiki or Guinnes (Joke)Book), even the research guy Jeremy Reimer has different results himself.
Sam Tramiel said that when he was at Commodore they built 400.000 machines a month for two years. During the beginnings on C64 (late 82) and his leaving in Jan 84 is not 2 years, so how would he know.
Also according to Wki, C64 sold 2 million computers a year (1983 - 1986), that makes 8 million. By 1987 C64 was in decline, especially in the USA (main selling C64 country), so how would they sell another 9 million computers during 87 - ...let's say 1990? No way.

[JamesD]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:15 AM, said:

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

So ZX Spectrum sales 5 mill leaves C64 sales in UK approx 2 - 3 million (ZX outsold C64 in UK), so where did Commodore sell the other 15 million?
Although the best selling home computer (C64), obviously never sold 17 million (as stated on Wiki or Guinnes (Joke)Book), even the research guy Jeremy Reimer has different results himself.
Sam Tramiel said that when he was at Commodore they built 400.000 machines a month for two years. During the beginnings on C64 (late 82) and his leaving in Jan 84 is not 2 years, so how would he know.
Also according to Wki, C64 sold 2 million computers a year (1983 - 1986), that makes 8 million. By 1987 C64 was in decline, especially in the USA (main selling C64 country), so how would they sell another 9 million computers during 87 - ...let's say 1990? No way.

The C64 had strong sales longer than that. They outsold the Amiga and ST until around '89 or '90. Not everyone could afford the more expensive machines.

Now, YOU say the Speccy outsold the C64 in the UK. Based on what? People you knew?
It's easy to make statements like that buy what do you have to back it up?
The general consensus of Speccy owners?
Exactly where did your numbers come from?

Just for the record, to this day I still don't own a C64 though I do have a 128D that has sat in storage since I bought it a couple years ago.
But then I also own a Spectrum 128 +2 I bought a couple years ago as well.

I worked for an Amiga dealership and got to see regular sales reports. We didn't (wouldn't) carry the C64 but we were still surprised at the sales figures. It took the Amiga a long time to even top a million in sales while the C64s continued to roll out the door.

One of the problems I have with the sales figures for both the C64 and Speccy is how companies try to imply that number of computers shipped equals sales. Both machines had a lot of defective machines and I wonder how many were returned out of the number shipped.
With people claiming that defects were 25% that takes a huge chunk out of those numbers.

Just remember one thing... publicly traded companies can't legally lie to their stockholders. Exaggerated numbers are against the law. That's why they will say number shipped and list profit/loss. They may bury returns in other misc expenses but if it's included they are complying with the law. What they say to the public on the other hand is another matter. They can misspeak to the general public.

BTW, why do people keep citing Wiki as an accurate source of info? It's only as accurate as the person(s) who maintain that page make it.
It can have completely bogus info if the poster wants to make it that way.

Edited by JamesD, Sat Nov 7, 2009 10:48 AM.

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:15 AM, said:

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

Have a page number for that? (Both the exaggeration statement and the approval)?

Quote

Sam Tramiel said that when he was at Commodore they built 400.000 machines a month for two years. During the beginnings on C64 (late 82) and his leaving in Jan 84 is not 2 years, so how would he know.

Sam didn't leave with Jack in January, he stayed on several months yet. Considering manufacturing for an August '82 release would have started in at least the Spring of '82, it's fully possible for him to have seen 2 years worth of manufacturing.

Quote

Also according to Wki, C64 sold 2 million computers a year (1983 - 1986), that makes 8 million. By 1987 C64 was in decline, especially in the USA (main selling C64 country), so how would they sell another 9 million computers during 87 - ...let's say 1990? No way.

Commodore, especially the 64, was always popular on the world wide market and the US sales (as with for Atari Corp.) were not indicative of the world market. It's fully possible it continued to sell well in UK/Euro during that time.

Edited by wgungfu, Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM.

[JamesD]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:44 AM, said:

JamesD, on Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:01 AM, said:

Herbarius, on Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:39 PM, said:

Seems home computers have been quite strong [read: popular] in Europe, quite more so than in the USA, or am I getting a wrong impression here? Maybe it's just Britain and Germany...

The video says the UK lead the world

The Brits loved to exaggerate, ZX Spectrum sold 5 million machines worldwide and that's obviously far fetched too. I remember Maggy Thachter demonstrating the ZX to a bunch on Japanese and claiming 'with this computer we lead the world market'. But then, she always was a dreamer.

Lead the world? Poppycock!
Thatcher was probably just repeating what Sinclair had been saying.

Based on prior discussion of 8 bit sales...
The Apple II series and C64 outsold the Speccy.
The Ataris sold around 5 million machines by the end even though sales in the early years were actually pretty poor.
Tandy sold lots of CoCos but they never stated how many publicly. They did say it was their top selling machine every year for it's entire life. Even if they only sold an average of 200,000 machines a year that's over 2 million machines over its lifetime. I'd guess higher because of sales numbers from other machines they sold but I could be wrong.
Then there's the TI99/4A which sold well till it's demise.
The IBM PC was even introduced before the Spectrum so claiming the UK lead the world is more than a little stretch.

All US companies. Did I mention that all the CPUs were designed in the US as well?

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:15 AM, said:

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

Have a page number for that? (Both the exaggeration statement and the approval)?

Yes.

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

Commodore, especially the 64, was always popular on the world wide market and the US sales (as with for Atari Corp.) were not indicative of the world market. It's fully possible it continued to sell well in UK/Euro during that time.

Exactly, what world market? There was USA, Germany, UK, Skandinavia.
That's hardly world market. So those 17 mill you gotta take with a BIG pinch of salt

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:48 AM, said:

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

Commodore, especially the 64, was always popular on the world wide market and the US sales (as with for Atari Corp.) were not indicative of the world market. It's fully possible it continued to sell well in UK/Euro during that time.

Exactly, what world market? There was USA, Germany, UK, Skandinavia.
That's hardly world market.

Now you're just sounding silly. You're listing several of many countries they sold in across the world but then saying it's "not a world market". A world market is something sold about the world, vs. a local market (I.E. just the US). I could care less whether they sold 17 million or not, it's your reasoning for stating that they didn't that's just not hitting the fact meter.

Edited by wgungfu, Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:01 PM.

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:45 AM, said:

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:15 AM, said:

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

Have a page number for that? (Both the exaggeration statement and the approval)?

Yes.

And? What are they?

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 12:55 PM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:45 AM, said:

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:15 AM, said:

Companies also love to exaggerate, in the book Game Over (a book approved by Hiroshi Yamauchi) it is stated that Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales (makes a company look good).

Have a page number for that? (Both the exaggeration statement and the approval)?

Yes.

And? What are they?

Try 363/364 for the disp[uted sales claims. As for the other, just read the acknowledgments.
As a matter of fact I'd suggest you read the whole book, it is an excellent read.

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 12:53 PM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:48 AM, said:

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:00 AM, said:

Commodore, especially the 64, was always popular on the world wide market and the US sales (as with for Atari Corp.) were not indicative of the world market. It's fully possible it continued to sell well in UK/Euro during that time.

Exactly, what world market? There was USA, Germany, UK, Skandinavia.
That's hardly world market.

Now you're just sounding silly. You're listing several of many countries they sold in across the world but then saying it's "not a world market". A world market is something sold about the world, vs. a local market (I.E. just the US). I could care less whether they sold 17 million or not, it's your reasoning for stating that they didn't that's just not hitting the fact meter.

To me a world market would include places like Japan, Russia and Australia, but then, I am more world travelled.

Edited by vcsdream, Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:16 PM.

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:15 PM, said:

To me a world market would include places like Japan, Russia and Australia, but then, I am more world travelled.

Apparently not enough, the C64 was sold in Japan and Australia as well. Russia was a closed market at the time, so either that shows the "world traveller" was not travelling then or has no context and is laying todays market on an older one.

Edited by wgungfu, Sat Nov 7, 2009 3:36 PM.

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:14 PM, said:

Try 363/364 for the disp[uted sales claims. As for the other, just read the acknowledgments.
As a matter of fact I'd suggest you read the whole book, it is an excellent read.

363-364 discusses the SNES, and talks about discrepancies with SNES sales figures. Hardly a reliable backup for a statement "Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales".

And he specifically thanks Yamauchi and others for their interviews they gave. That in no way, shape, or form constitutes an approval by said people or an approval of the SNES financial discrepency statement. It simply states they were interviewed and thanks them for their time.

And I love when newbies blow on here and make assumptions about people they're not familiar with, and tell writers and professional historians in the industry to read books that have been out for 16 years (which btw a number of inaccuracies can be found in as well). LOL, next you'll be making unbacked statements about Atari or something, and suggesting Curt read Zap.

Edited by wgungfu, Sat Nov 7, 2009 3:45 PM.

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:50 PM, said:

vcsdream, on Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:14 PM, said:

Try 363/364 for the disp[uted sales claims. As for the other, just read the acknowledgments.
As a matter of fact I'd suggest you read the whole book, it is an excellent read.

363-364 discusses the SNES, and talks about discrepancies with SNES sales figures. Hardly a reliable backup for a statement "Nintendo always vastly exaggerated NES hardware sales".

And he specifically thanks Yamauchi and others for their interviews they gave. That in no way, shape, or form constitutes an approval by said people or an approval of the SNES financial discrepency statement. It simply states they were interviewed and thanks them for their time.

And I love when newbies blow on here and make assumptions about people they're not familiar with, and tell writers and professional historians in the industry to read books that have been out for 16 years (which btw a number of inaccuracies can be found in as well). LOL, next you'll be making unbacked statements about Atari or something, and suggesting Curt read Zap.

My statements are NEVER unbacked, yours obviously, mine never.
SNES yes, but also NES, some other pages, just read the book. Works for me though. And anyway, if Nintendo did it, and Sega, you can be certain, Commodore and others did the same. Happens in the record industry all the time.
BTW, being the owner of 48 consoles/computers (incl a complete Magnavox Odyssey with the 1973 range of titles, and being the owner of a complete Teradrive), 1600 games and utilities, 2500 gaming magazines from 1981 onwards and many, many books incl. ZAP! The rise and fall of Atari, try again. But then, I don't have to justify myself to you.

Edited by vcsdream, Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:16 AM.

[Retro Rogue]

vcsdream, on Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:05 AM, said:

SNES yes, but also NES, some other pages, just read the book. Works for me though.

Read that book and many others, know many of the authors as well. Doesn't back up what you've claimed. I asked specifically for what pages you thought the material was on because I want to know what you're trying to interpret (or missinterpret). Not because I can't read the book (or don't need to read it yet again).

Quote

BTW, being the owner of 48 consoles/computers (incl a complete Magnavox Odyssey with the 1973 range of titles, and being the owner of a complete Teradrive), 1600 games and utilities, 2500 gaming magazines from 1981 onwards and many, many books incl. ZAP, try again.

Hey, that's great. So do a lot of other people here, including my self (and I'll raise your Odyssey with mine signed by my friend Ralph). But then, that has nothing to do with the claims you made, nor does it give you any credentials as anything other than a collector.

Quote

But then, I don't have to justify myself to you.

No, just state correct info instead of reaching for unsubstantiated claims presented as "fact" while stating how much more "worldly" you are as some sort of credential. But trust me, the feeling on "not justifying" is mutual.

[vcsdream]

wgungfu, on Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:15 AM, said:

vcsdream, on Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:05 AM, said:

SNES yes, but also NES, some other pages, just read the book. Works for me though.

Read that book and many others, know many of the authors as well. Doesn't back up what you've claimed. I asked specifically for what pages you thought the material was on because I want to know what you're trying to interpret (or missinterpret). Not because I can't read the book (or don't need to read it yet again).

Quote

BTW, being the owner of 48 consoles/computers (incl a complete Magnavox Odyssey with the 1973 range of titles, and being the owner of a complete Teradrive), 1600 games and utilities, 2500 gaming magazines from 1981 onwards and many, many books incl. ZAP, try again.

Hey, that's great. So do a lot of other people here, including my self (and I'll raise your Odyssey with mine signed by my friend Ralph). But then, that has nothing to do with the claims you made, nor does it give you any credentials as anything other than a collector.

Quote

But then, I don't have to justify myself to you.

No, just state correct info instead of reaching for unsubstantiated claims presented as "fact" while stating how much more "worldly" you are as some sort of credential. But trust me, the feeling on "not justifying" is mutual.

Except, you just did. But nevermind.

[AB Positive]

All I know is that the information being argued over is probably in the exact domain that wgungfu's an expert in. Not knowing myself what's true or not, I'd be more likely to trust his info. VCSdreams - you may want to check the links in his sig to see why.