250 replies to this topic

[oky2000]

Around the late 80s there was a huge wave of PC software pushing hard to make the PC acceptable and this probably ties in with greater disposable income in USA compared to the EU. 8bits, NES sales excluded, were seen as toys and if people wanted a cheap games machine they bought their kids an NES in the USA otherwise they bought a PC or Mac as far as new sales go. The ST/Amiga/C64 probably wasn't a big seller in the USA by 1990 for sure where as here in the EU it was the total opposite.

We kind of skipped XT/AT/286 clone PCs here in the UK for sure, it wasn't until very late into the 386 stage that sales even got anywhere as far as non-business use went. By the 486 sort of era and the death of Commodore things changed in early 90s though and here we are (with two crap defacto systems sold in shops *puke*)

As for PoP I think personally given the small amount of on-screen sprites required I would go for a nice hires sprite overlay with multi-colour sprite combination on the C64. I toyed with this for my Donkey Kong Jr project but there was just too much and I didn't want to multiplex on that game as my first game!

[STE'86]

oky2000, on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:16 AM, said:

Around the late 80s there was a huge wave of PC software pushing hard to make the PC acceptable and this probably ties in with greater disposable income in USA compared to the EU. 8bits, NES sales excluded, were seen as toys and if people wanted a cheap games machine they bought their kids an NES in the USA otherwise they bought a PC or Mac as far as new sales go. The ST/Amiga/C64 probably wasn't a big seller in the USA by 1990 for sure where as here in the EU it was the total opposite.

We kind of skipped XT/AT/286 clone PCs here in the UK for sure, it wasn't until very late into the 386 stage that sales even got anywhere as far as non-business use went. By the 486 sort of era and the death of Commodore things changed in early 90s though and here we are (with two crap defacto systems sold in shops *puke*)

As for PoP I think personally given the small amount of on-screen sprites required I would go for a nice hires sprite overlay with multi-colour sprite combination on the C64. I toyed with this for my Donkey Kong Jr project but there was just too much and I didn't want to multiplex on that game as my first game!

hires overlay is a nice idea until u realise just how many frames of sprite data there are in the game, and each characters is based on a 2x2 c64 sprite "grid". the logistics alone of drawing overlays on top of multicolour sprites would be horrendous without even considering the volume of memory the extra data would chew up and then the programming aggro of matching the x,y coords for each frame as they animate.

all in all, not something that anyone is going to do for free unless they have a spare couple of years

Steve

[PeteD]

The only way to get it to fit short of removing loads of frames is to have them runlengthed. There are ~220 frames for ONE direction of the Kid so say ~400 in total. That's 100k if they're all 2x2, single layer (ie multicolour). Even if some fit in 1x2 that's still a minimum 50k just for the player sprite. The DOS version at least is all compressed, I'd presume the others are too.

You could always work out sprite overlays for C64 while drawing the rl data into hardware sprites depending on colour, or maybe the start and end of each edge gets drawn to a hires sprite, but then what about different colours? I'm sure some "formula" for what is drawn in which colour to which sprites would be possible with a bit of thought.


Pete

[oky2000]

Ahh I didn't check out the sprite size my mistake. You could always ditch half the sprite requirement by using vertically expanded sprites so that's just two and take it from there. You can save yet more memory usage by simply removing some frames that make no sense on a lower resolution setup like the C64/A8 like for example in the animation of the main character running there are frames to show the left and right leg running separately (ie which one is behind/in front) but you can just make it one cyclic animation and remove about 1/3-1/2 the frames as they will be identical whether the right leg or left leg is in front or behind but in the same position.

Depends how much time you want to spend on doing this and with thought it can be done, there are trade-offs sure but that is the 'fun' of converting PC/Amiga games to lower tech.

I'm sure if someone did this game either for A8 or C64 people would pay really, I personally don't like the game so not a good idea for me to do anything for it....A8 Donkey Kong is a prime example of what happens when someone who hates the original game converts it...it will just be all wrong and miss the subtleties the fans loved

edit: whoever did the ST version deserves a pat on the back, graphics are superior to the plain boring Amiga/PC versions.

Edited by oky2000, Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:06 AM.

[Heaven/TQA]

why should we not take the Apple 2 version as resources???

[STE'86]

well i thought that too. but from the screenshots i have access to in "zoom" on PS, they look like the sprites have a 1:1 pixel ratio which neither the 64 or the a8 would be able to use as the modes needed on both will be 2:1 aspect.

i could be totally wrong here tho as the screens were really badly jpeged.

if they are 1:1 tho, they will need just as much editing as the msdos version and the ms dos one is if nothing else easily accessible graphics wise.

Steve

[PeteD]

From reading Mechner's document (which is all about the Apple version) the files are about the same size (30k of compressed data, 1 direction for the main sprite frames) and when everything for a level is loaded into ram it takes nearly 128k. Also I haven't found a way yet to get at the data files on the Apple disks.



Pete

[STE'86]

this is a simple method to fairly quickly convert the MSDOS graphics to 3 colour in photoshop CS:

1. load the msdos bmp in
2. make sure its width is an EVEN number. crop by a pixel if necessary (preferably off the left)
3. use [image-size] and HALVE the horizontal res
4. change the pixel display ratio to 2:1
5. convert to an rgb image
6. convert back to an indexed colour image using a c64 palette

by now the image will look like a c64 sprite. replace any light grey pixels with white and any brown/orange with pink. retouch any areas as u see fit.

6. when u are happy with the sprite use [image-size] and double the horizontal res and save

using this method its quite possible to covert a frame in 2-3 mins. which isnt bad.

Steve

[oky2000]

The ST version would be perfect for aspect but they improved the graphics too much so they're too colourful.

[STE'86]

err no sorry the ST/amiga/pc and probably apple are all 1:1 pixel aspect. 320x200 res.

what the c64 and a8 needs is 2:1 aspect (effectively 160x200 res c64 multicolour mode) whic i think only the cpc uses. but the cpc is so colourful that its easier to convert the high res low colour versions


Steve

[José Pereira]

analmux, on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:08 PM, said:

José Pereira, on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:22 PM, said:

Hello.

I take picture PeteD send and get this using AIS:
kid.png


It's 00424, the largets horizontal wide, and it's difficult to put using PMs.

What would you do?


PeteD: I discouver many .DAT on Integrator/Extractor from that site.
What you use to open .DAT files.
There I see, amongst others (Dungeons, Enemys,...)


Thanks.
Jose Pereira.

hmmm, just use 2 or 3 DLIs. Then only 1 or 2 PM might be needed, maybe even 1 player & 1 missile.

EDIT: Of course the best would be to use bitmapped screen in this case. No charmodes.

Hello people.

I think I have the solution, a simple one, for the Player and the Enemy:



Our Player ("Kid"):



You use PM0/1 to the "Kid" and PM2/3 to the Enemy in Multicolour mode.
Only use one colour on your Soft Sprite, Light Gray (PF0) for the clothe and the Sword. Then use PM0/1/3rd overlap colour on him. I create athe shirt as PM1, but you can put all the clothe as Light Gray. It's just a question of taste... Now, I have my "Kid" with 4colours.



ENEMY:


This is just a picture manage with AIS, with only PFs.
1st idea: Do the same as the "kid". Sword and Pants as Light Gray (PF0), Other clothes, Turbant and Arms PM2/3/3rd colour.
2nd idea: Like Analmux post above. With DLIs. you can probably have here two PM2/3/3rd colour. Any good artist around there (I'm not one...) could try this?








If this work with this "Kid" frame that is the largest horizontal one it must work with all the others.

About the screens, using the CPC version is not difficult, the main colours aren't more than 5+black, and from the post I sent to you yesterday you can have a 6th colour, using DLIs. on the Floor. I'am doing a shot to show you, but not finnish yet.
I've taken other versions screens to .MIC format, and the main graphics/colours can be ported.
I've come to a conclusion P.C. and Amstrad Underground (Rock) Levels are better to translate to A8. But I don't like the way they design the rocks on CPC.
I like more the ones from the P.C. version (I'll just adds some dither on the rocks). About the other screens (The Palace) I think the CPC it's better. I like the walls design and because this Levels have more graphic details the P.C./ST transfer aren't possible.



About the other screen graphics:
- Windows: You can use PM2/3 on them (different lines of the Enemy)
- Windows on the top of the screen: You can use the two PMs. or A DLIs., because no Players on this lines.
- Level doors: PM2/3, in this screens you don't have the Enemy.
- Top of that Left Doors on the Palace: You can use PMs. on that "Logo", no Players on this lines.
- Fire - Just put some pixels higher. The base can be PFs but the fire will be up the Players lines. Now you can use PMs. You also use PMs Yellow and Red+3rd colour. Now you only use one set of PMs (PM2/3 for example). One is On then off and the second one burns. A nice effect...
- Bottle - PM2/3 if not on Enemy's lines.


I'm trying to do a good screen(s) with all this ideas to show you that this can work, but I don't have many time now. I'm trying... By now you have some of my ideas.


Greetings.
José Pereira.

[Heaven/TQA]

aehm... another reason why I mentioned the apple 2 version is of course to take the core engine... XXL someone? or do you want to rewrite it from scratch???

[PeteD]

Personally I'd rewrite it. To me that's part of the fun. I'd rather write my own version of the code taking cues from available data etc than just port something. I've done enough of that as a real job and often (not saying so in this case) could've ended up with something better if I'd been allowed to write it myself from scratch.


Pete

Edited by PeteD, Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:42 PM.

[oky2000]

STE, on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:01 PM, said:

err no sorry the ST/amiga/pc and probably apple are all 1:1 pixel aspect. 320x200 res.

what the c64 and a8 needs is 2:1 aspect (effectively 160x200 res c64 multicolour mode) whic i think only the cpc uses. but the cpc is so colourful that its easier to convert the high res low colour versions


Steve

Ahhh no I meant general aspect ratio h:v as ST uses same resolution and same borders as a C64.

Edited by oky2000, Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:46 PM.

[Heaven/TQA]

I tend to say that there is not much game engine in POP as most of the ram is eaten up by the animation?

[PeteD]

Heaven/TQA, on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:52 PM, said:

I tend to say that there is not much game engine in POP as most of the ram is eaten up by the animation?

According to Mechner's Apple design doc there is 48k of "code".


Pete

[Heaven/TQA]

where can I have a look on the design doc???

[PeteD]

Heaven/TQA, on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:00 PM, said:

where can I have a look on the design doc???

Tezz posted it on page 1 http://www.atariage....ttach_id=143174


*edit*
I'd think that 48k of "code" would include animation tables and stuff because after my own investigations into to DOS dat files I can't see any of that stuff in them and the resource extractor thing doesn't seem to spit any of that out. It's still a hefty chunk of ram though.



Pete

Edited by PeteD, Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:27 PM.

[Heaven/TQA]

thx... that's a lot of good information to start a port...

[José Pereira]

José Pereira, on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:43 PM, said:

analmux, on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:08 PM, said:

José Pereira, on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:22 PM, said:

Hello.

I take picture PeteD send and get this using AIS:
kid.png


It's 00424, the largets horizontal wide, and it's difficult to put using PMs.

What would you do?


PeteD: I discouver many .DAT on Integrator/Extractor from that site.
What you use to open .DAT files.
There I see, amongst others (Dungeons, Enemys,...)


Thanks.
Jose Pereira.

hmmm, just use 2 or 3 DLIs. Then only 1 or 2 PM might be needed, maybe even 1 player & 1 missile.

EDIT: Of course the best would be to use bitmapped screen in this case. No charmodes.

Hello people.

I think I have the solution, a simple one, for the Player and the Enemy:



Our Player ("Kid"):



You use PM0/1 to the "Kid" and PM2/3 to the Enemy in Multicolour mode.
Only use one colour on your Soft Sprite, Light Gray (PF0) for the clothe and the Sword. Then use PM0/1/3rd overlap colour on him. I create athe shirt as PM1, but you can put all the clothe as Light Gray. It's just a question of taste... Now, I have my "Kid" with 4colours.



ENEMY:


This is just a picture manage with AIS, with only PFs.
1st idea: Do the same as the "kid". Sword and Pants as Light Gray (PF0), Other clothes, Turbant and Arms PM2/3/3rd colour.
2nd idea: Like Analmux post above. With DLIs. you can probably have here two PM2/3/3rd colour. Any good artist around there (I'm not one...) could try this?








If this work with this "Kid" frame that is the largest horizontal one it must work with all the others.

About the screens, using the CPC version is not difficult, the main colours aren't more than 5+black, and from the post I sent to you yesterday you can have a 6th colour, using DLIs. on the Floor. I'am doing a shot to show you, but not finnish yet.
I've taken other versions screens to .MIC format, and the main graphics/colours can be ported.
I've come to a conclusion P.C. and Amstrad Underground (Rock) Levels are better to translate to A8. But I don't like the way they design the rocks on CPC.
I like more the ones from the P.C. version (I'll just adds some dither on the rocks). About the other screens (The Palace) I think the CPC it's better. I like the walls design and because this Levels have more graphic details the P.C./ST transfer aren't possible.



About the other screen graphics:
- Windows: You can use PM2/3 on them (different lines of the Enemy)
- Windows on the top of the screen: You can use the two PMs. or A DLIs., because no Players on this lines.
- Level doors: PM2/3, in this screens you don't have the Enemy.
- Top of that Left Doors on the Palace: You can use PMs. on that "Logo", no Players on this lines.
- Fire - Just put some pixels higher. The base can be PFs but the fire will be up the Players lines. Now you can use PMs. You also use PMs Yellow and Red+3rd colour. Now you only use one set of PMs (PM2/3 for example). One is On then off and the second one burns. A nice effect...
- Bottle - PM2/3 if not on Enemy's lines.


I'm trying to do a good screen(s) with all this ideas to show you that this can work, but I don't have many time now. I'm trying... By now you have some of my ideas.


Greetings.
José Pereira.

Hello all.

Like I said yesterday, I've trying a screen to show my ideas. I taked one from ST version. I've done it on G2F and as I said I create some DLIs to have a second Backgr. floor colour. Now I have 6colours.
The Players I think they can be done like I said in my yesterday's post. About the other screen objects and using PMs. on that I'll try that later using my ideas.

Why don't you give yours too? And just for the fun:

THE G2F SCREEN:



AND THE SAME SCREEN ON ATARI800WIN EMULATOR:



And here you can see PM0 using Priority 8:


With this picture you can see that the PF0/1 in front walls and PF2/3/backgr. on Backwards walls using Priority 8 "et voilà"... you can use PM0/1 for the "kid" and PM2/3 for the Enemy and PF0 as Light Gray for the Players Swords (you can see this colour on the above screens).
You can, of course redesign this screen with better colours/design (I'm not an artist)...


Bye now,
José Pereira

[STE'86]

more junk for this thread

standing jump animation converted:



and a basic c64 3 colour + background test. no stonework detail to try to cut down on the amount of chars it will generate in a "live" conversion.(ignore the torches they just look nice)



Steve

[oky2000]

Nice sprites

I decided to convert the whole of Level 1 from the superior ST graphics as a basis into a nice 3 colour C64 set for the stone (went for blue not grey although have brown/blue/grey set just incase I change my mind later) leaving the steel traps, torches and flames for seperate colours on char boundarie tweaks. I really don't like the DOS/Amiga stonework, it's just too damned 'clean' and plain compared to all the other versions.

The other maps won't take long now I have done this first one.

Also did the 'bedroom' scene at the end which was a right pain but I am happy with now...might change the floor though as it is drawn really crap anyway on ST/Amiga/PC.

The CPC colours are so garish and clash so much I really couldn't use them at all (plus there is no detail in the stonework.

(bored=didn't want to do any more decorating )

[oky2000]

Borrowing a frame from Steve's main sprite conversions here is a mockup based on the ST screens, not an exact screen just cut a rectangle from the huge map I was messing about with.

(25% blur added to edges to simulate TV output btw and if viewing 100% based on 800x600 or 200% on 1600x1200 etc)

Attached Thumbnails

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[Heaven/TQA]

STE looks good... but can we keep it simple so we could in theory use the assets for the a8, too?

[José Pereira]

Hello all.

Very good STE and OKI. If you don't mind probably someone can tranfer them to 5colour A8 Antic4.
If someone wants some of my ideas from the last posts, just see this picture. You'll probably understand better than if I use my "always bad English":

Bye.
José Pereira.

Attached Thumbnails

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