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TommyGun retro development toolkit


retroclouds

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Hi,

 

I'd like to draw the attention of all Colecovision homebrew developers to TommyGun.

 

TommyGun is an Integrated Development Environment (IDE), A PC

software that supports you in writing games for home computer

systems. It has a plugin system and currently supports

the commodore 64, ZX spectrum, Amstrad and partly MSX1.

 

Check out: http://www.users.on.net/~tonyt73/TommyGun/

 

Actually the author already began adding support for MSX1 but it

stalled due to lack of interest. The implemented MSX part is very

important to us, because it actually means support for

the TMS9918 VDP processor.

 

Note that IDE is not only of interest for programmers. Besides the

code editor it also has a built-in image editor for creating artwork

(sprite/pattern creation, a map design tool, music composing tool,

etc.

 

This is what the author answered upon my mail request:

<snip>

I an reconsidering finishing off the MSX1 support.

But before I do invest a lot of my time and effort I would like to see

more than 3 or 4 people asking for it.

....

If you could get 6 or more people to request the MSX1 features to be

completed then I will put the time in to finish it.

If you get more than 10 or so I try really hard to finish it for you guys.

</snip>

 

Myself am currently mainly developing for the TI-99/4A, but have some stuff planned

for the colecovision in the near future. Like most I have been using a loose collection

of editors, assembler and image manipulation tools. That is why I think that

the TommyGun IDE can be a great help....

 

If you are interested please write the author a mail and ask for Colecovision support.

We -the TI-99/4A, Colecovision & MSX developers- can then all benefit from it.

 

The address is TommyGun.IDE at gmail.com

 

 

Thanks!

 

retroclouds

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Interesting... :)

 

I'd be curious to see if this IDE could be configured to use the SDCC compiler... I'd do some tests myself but I'm too busy right now with other stuff. Daniel Bienvenu (newcoleco) should be advised of this, at the very least. He once worked on such an IDE but never got very far into it, AFAIK.

 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention! :)

 

EDIT: I just downloaded it and tried the sprite editor in MSX mode, and I just have to say this: Rarely have I seen such a counter-intuitive interface. I'll stick with ICVGM, thank you very much.

Edited by Pixelboy
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Interesting... :)

 

I'd be curious to see if this IDE could be configured to use the SDCC compiler... I'd do some tests myself but I'm too busy right now with other stuff. Daniel Bienvenu (newcoleco) should be advised of this, at the very least. He once worked on such an IDE but never got very far into it, AFAIK.

 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention! :)

 

EDIT: I just downloaded it and tried the sprite editor in MSX mode, and I just have to say this: Rarely have I seen such a counter-intuitive interface. I'll stick with ICVGM, thank you very much.

 

You have the possibility to specify the C compiler parameter options, so I don't see a reason why the SDCC compiler wouldn't work.

 

As far as the sprite editor is concerned. Too bad you don't like the user-interface.

It is a powerful software and might take some time to get used too.

As a developer I still see the overall benefit compared to a loose collection of tools.

So I'm hoping the other colecovision homebrewers will make their own picture :-)

 

Some additional info: Best way to explore TommyGun features is to play with some of the included sample projects.

Or look at the tutorial on the home page.

 

retroclouds

Edited by kroy2049
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First off, my apologies to all other AtariAge forum users for my response here.

This is not an appropriate 1st post and I'm ok if I get banned for it.

But I feel I need to defend my application against such a negative response from someone who clearly didn't even take the time to use the application and posted a comment for his other vanity.

 

Interesting... :)

 

I'd be curious to see if this IDE could be configured to use the SDCC compiler... I'd do some tests myself but I'm too busy right now with other stuff. Daniel Bienvenu (newcoleco) should be advised of this, at the very least. He once worked on such an IDE but never got very far into it, AFAIK.

 

You should actually try the software before commenting on it.

It supports any compiler and/or assembler.

Writing an IDE for a single platform is too easy, and writing one off tools is kiddies work.

Writing an IDE for multiple platforms using plugins is a little bit more work than writing a java tool to edit 1 character at time.

You need to take all platforms into consideration and design accordingly.

You should try writing one - I would be very interested in your results.

But I'm guessing from your other responses on this forum you do more complaining than writing software for others.

 

EDIT: I just downloaded it and tried the sprite editor in MSX mode, and I just have to say this: Rarely have I seen such a counter-intuitive interface. I'll stick with ICVGM, thank you very much.

If your comparing TommyGun to ICVGM and/or CV Paint then I can see what kind of interface you are use to.

TommyGun is modelled on editing full size images of any size using standard paint program mechanics for multiple machine palette spaces.

ICVM is modelled on edit a single character - wow truly exceptional stuff!

Its a bit like asking Leonardo Divinci to paint the Mona Lisa through a key hole.

 

Pixelboy I would be very happy if you never use TommyGun at all in the future.

I doubt your programming ability anyway so it wouldn't be of much use to you.

 

Other AtariAge forum people, at the moment getting colecovision support from TommyGun has taken a big step back and you can all thank Pixeltoy for his comments.

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First off, my apologies to all other AtariAge forum users for my response here.

This is not an appropriate 1st post and I'm ok if I get banned for it.

But I feel I need to defend my application against such a negative response from someone who clearly didn't even take the time to use the application and posted a comment for his other vanity.

 

Interesting... :)

7

I'd be curious to see if this IDE could be configured to use the SDCC compiler... I'd do some tests myself but I'm too busy right now with other stuff. Daniel Bienvenu (newcoleco) should be advised of this, at the very least. He once worked on such an IDE but never got very far into it, AFAIK.

 

You should actually try the software before commenting on it.

It supports any compiler and/or assembler.

Writing an IDE for a single platform is too easy, and writing one off tools is kiddies work.

Writing an IDE for multiple platforms using plugins is a little bit more work than writing a java tool to edit 1 character at time.

You need to take all platforms into consideration and design accordingly.

You should try writing one - I would be very interested in your results.

But I'm guessing from your other responses on this forum you do more complaining than writing software for others.

 

EDIT: I just downloaded it and tried the sprite editor in MSX mode, and I just have to say this: Rarely have I seen such a counter-intuitive interface. I'll stick with ICVGM, thank you very much.

If your comparing TommyGun to ICVGM and/or CV Paint then I can see what kind of interface you are use to.

TommyGun is modelled on editing full size images of any size using standard paint program mechanics for multiple machine palette spaces.

ICVM is modelled on edit a single character - wow truly exceptional stuff!

Its a bit like asking Leonardo Divinci to paint the Mona Lisa through a key hole.

 

Pixelboy I would be very happy if you never use TommyGun at all in the future.

I doubt your programming ability anyway so it wouldn't be of much use to you.

 

Other AtariAge forum people, at the moment getting colecovision support from TommyGun has taken a big step back and you can all thank Pixeltoy for his comments.

Thank you for your comments. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to voice my own opinion of you.

 

Yes, I didn't test your software thoroughly today, mostly because I had other things to do, like going to the gym, trimming trees in the backyard, and I'm currently ironing some shirts while watching TV (I'm taking a break right now from that to reply to you). I'm quite a busy guy so please forgive me if I don't put everything aside and spend several hours devouring your piece of software and its accompanying documentation.

 

So if I understand correctly, you're pissed because I passed judgement on your software based on a single of its components? Sorry my friend, but that's life. I was quite willing to study TommyGun further, since I plan to create more ColecoVision software within the next few years, and it would be nice to have an IDE to make the work easier and more fun. But I had to start somewhere, and I started with the graphic tools, which I honestly found confusing and definately didn't like. Now if I dislike one component which I find rather important, why should I pursue studying the rest of the software, especially given my busy schedule? I'm certainly not going to use software I don't like (unless I'm paid to do it, which is an entirely different matter, of course).

 

You came here to defend your software? Fine. If personal attacks are your only "defense", then you'll get no sympathy from me, my friend. You could have simply asked me why I didn't like it, and perhaps I could have offered you a detailed explaination, which you could have received as constructive criticism (or simply ignored), but I see that you are an emotional fellow (I understand that, because I can be emotional too, sometimes) who firmly believes that his software should only be criticized by people he approves of.

 

Yes, I prefer ICVGM a whole lot more than your graphic tools, because it's far more "in tune" with how I conceptualize and define graphics on the ColecoVision. If you don't understand that simple point, then you and I have nothing more to discuss. Whether you add ColecoVision support to TommyGun or not is irrelevant to me, because I won't be using it anyway. I have no problem with anyone else who may want to use your software, although I have to say I'd be curious to see if those people find your graphics tools as confusing as I do.

 

Oh, by the way, welcome to the AtariAge boards.

 

P.S.: Some others here may agree with TommyGun, that I should have explored his software further before passing judgement, and I recognize that this may have indeed been the correct course of action to take, but on the other hand, I invite anyone here to download and install TommyGun, and try the sprite tools. Play around with it a bit, changing values in the textboxes and such, and tell me if the software reacts like you expect it to. Perhaps you will find that my initial comment was justified...

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First off, my apologies to all other AtariAge forum users for my response here.

This is not an appropriate 1st post and I'm ok if I get banned for it.

But I feel I need to defend my application against such a negative response from someone who clearly didn't even take the time to use the application and posted a comment for his other vanity.

 

Interesting... :)

7

I'd be curious to see if this IDE could be configured to use the SDCC compiler... I'd do some tests myself but I'm too busy right now with other stuff. Daniel Bienvenu (newcoleco) should be advised of this, at the very least. He once worked on such an IDE but never got very far into it, AFAIK.

 

You should actually try the software before commenting on it.

It supports any compiler and/or assembler.

Writing an IDE for a single platform is too easy, and writing one off tools is kiddies work.

Writing an IDE for multiple platforms using plugins is a little bit more work than writing a java tool to edit 1 character at time.

You need to take all platforms into consideration and design accordingly.

You should try writing one - I would be very interested in your results.

But I'm guessing from your other responses on this forum you do more complaining than writing software for others.

 

EDIT: I just downloaded it and tried the sprite editor in MSX mode, and I just have to say this: Rarely have I seen such a counter-intuitive interface. I'll stick with ICVGM, thank you very much.

If your comparing TommyGun to ICVGM and/or CV Paint then I can see what kind of interface you are use to.

TommyGun is modelled on editing full size images of any size using standard paint program mechanics for multiple machine palette spaces.

ICVM is modelled on edit a single character - wow truly exceptional stuff!

Its a bit like asking Leonardo Divinci to paint the Mona Lisa through a key hole.

 

Pixelboy I would be very happy if you never use TommyGun at all in the future.

I doubt your programming ability anyway so it wouldn't be of much use to you.

 

Other AtariAge forum people, at the moment getting colecovision support from TommyGun has taken a big step back and you can all thank Pixeltoy for his comments.

Thank you for your comments. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to voice my own opinion of you.

 

Yes, I didn't test your software thoroughly today, mostly because I had other things to do, like going to the gym, trimming trees in the backyard, and I'm currently ironing some shirts while watching TV (I'm taking a break right now from that to reply to you). I'm quite a busy guy so please forgive me if I don't put everything aside and spend several hours devouring your piece of software and its accompanying documentation.

 

So if I understand correctly, you're pissed because I passed judgement on your software based on a single of its components? Sorry my friend, but that's life. I was quite willing to study TommyGun further, since I plan to create more ColecoVision software within the next few years, and it would be nice to have an IDE to make the work easier and more fun. But I had to start somewhere, and I started with the graphic tools, which I honestly found confusing and definately didn't like. Now if I dislike one component which I find rather important, why should I pursue studying the rest of the software, especially given my busy schedule? I'm certainly not going to use software I don't like (unless I'm paid to do it, which is an entirely different matter, of course).

 

You came here to defend your software? Fine. If personal attacks are your only "defense", then you'll get no sympathy from me, my friend. You could have simply asked me why I didn't like it, and perhaps I could have offered you a detailed explaination, which you could have received as constructive criticism (or simply ignored), but I see that you are an emotional fellow (I understand that, because I can be emotional too, sometimes) who firmly believes that his software should only be criticized by people he approves of.

 

Yes, I prefer ICVGM a whole lot more than your graphic tools, because it's far more "in tune" with how I conceptualize and define graphics on the ColecoVision. If you don't understand that simple point, then you and I have nothing more to discuss. Whether you add ColecoVision support to TommyGun or not is irrelevant to me, because I won't be using it anyway. I have no problem with anyone else who may want to use your software, although I have to say I'd be curious to see if those people find your graphics tools as confusing as I do.

 

Oh, by the way, welcome to the AtariAge boards.

 

P.S.: Some others here may agree with TommyGun, that I should have explored his software further before passing judgement, and I recognize that this may have indeed been the correct course of action to take, but on the other hand, I invite anyone here to download and install TommyGun, and try the sprite tools. Play around with it a bit, changing values in the textboxes and such, and tell me if the software reacts like you expect it to. Perhaps you will find that my initial comment was justified...

 

Hey busy guy,

 

The whole point about letting people such as yourself know about a tool such as TommyGun was to add support for the colecovision's way of dealing with graphics.

Which is particularly different to most 8 bit architectures, efficient in some ways but different never the less.

ICVGM is tailored to the CV so go figure its in 'tune' with the way you do things on that machine. - duh!

Dude if you want tools that can't draw a line, do flood fills, copy/pasting bitmaps, shapes or anything like that then stick to the caveman tools you obviously use at the moment.

The main goal for TommyGun's TI99/MSX/CV additions are to manage the pattern, color, sprite and name tables for the developer simplifying the task for you.

If you can't see that then its your own short sightedness not to fully explore what is new to you.

A bit stupid to hop on a forum and bag software you never intended to give the light of day.

But yeah if you are going to complain about software that people have made for free, then back it up with a reason.

Not "i dont like it cos i do things differently".

I shouldn't have to ask you why you didn't like it - its your responsibility to state your reasons not mine.

 

Don't get me wrong criticism is always accepted, but straight out ignorance isn't - you need to learn the difference.

 

 

 

If any other colecovison users have anything positive to say about getting more software support for their machine then please say so.

Hopefully pixelboy is not the standard demographic of colecovision developers surely.

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The whole point about letting people such as yourself know about a tool such as TommyGun was to add support for the colecovision's way of dealing with graphics.

Which is particularly different to most 8 bit architectures, efficient in some ways but different never the less.

ICVGM is tailored to the CV so go figure its in 'tune' with the way you do things on that machine. - duh!

Dude if you want tools that can't draw a line, do flood fills, copy/pasting bitmaps, shapes or anything like that then stick to the caveman tools you obviously use at the moment.

The main goal for TommyGun's TI99/MSX/CV additions are to manage the pattern, color, sprite and name tables for the developer simplifying the task for you.

If you can't see that then its your own short sightedness not to fully explore what is new to you.

You know what? You're right. I can be really shortsighted sometimes, it's one of my many faults.

 

A bit stupid to hop on a forum and bag software you never intended to give the light of day.

But yeah if you are going to complain about software that people have made for free, then back it up with a reason.

Not "i dont like it cos i do things differently".

I shouldn't have to ask you why you didn't like it - its your responsibility to state your reasons not mine.

I would normally do that right now, but with the way you initially came here will all guns blazing, I just don't see the point. I removed your software from my PC yesterday, and I don't intend to reinstall it. I'm sure that's a relief for you.

 

Don't get me wrong criticism is always accepted, but straight out ignorance isn't - you need to learn the difference.

Point well taken, but you need to learn that sometimes people judge from first impressions. You can call it shortsighted and unfair if you like, but the fact remains, it happens all the time. I find your second post in this thread more constructive than your first, but at this point, I just don't care. If I were to post the arguments that led me to say what I initially said, you would probably find ways to turn them into ridicule. I don't see why I should submit myself to that.

 

If any other colecovison users have anything positive to say about getting more software support for their machine then please say so. Hopefully pixelboy is not the standard demographic of colecovision developers surely.

Don't worry, I'm not. And I do invite others to try TommyGun and post their comments here.

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I propose we all step back for a second and take a deep breath.

There is too much emotion in the discussion right now.

The thread has taken a spin where reactions are built on emotions instead of facts.

 

I made the post here in the first place, because I think that Tommygun

can be a valuable addition when developing games for the colecovision.

It already has proven to be so for several important retro systems like

Spectrum, Commodore, etc. (one benefit I see is that with a common IDE it gets easier

to develop games for multiple target systems).

 

Unfortunatly the discussion so far was only based on a first impression of trying the sprite editor.

That is not all what the IDE is about. I also understand that Pixelboy is currently very busy and that

is perhaps not the best time for testing new software....

 

Personally, I see both TommyGun and Pixelboy as very talented people, each in their own right.

So I hope that after everyone has cooled down a bit, Pixelboy gives the IDE a second look.

 

I know that there is interest for TMS9918 support in the TI-99 scene and MSX scene, would be a shame if

the colecovision scene missed the opportunity.

 

Those are my 2 cents on the topic anyway.

 

 

retroclouds

Edited by kroy2049
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I have downloaded it , and quickly tested. Ok, as pixelboy, i have to say the GUI is not very intuitive.

But it is not a problem, if i dig into i'm sure i will learn it.

 

If a Coleco support is added, i will try it in depth for sure.

 

But in general i prefer little efficient "caveman" dedicated tool , than big integrated tool that does average job.

(i don't say your tool does average job, i don't tried it yet ).

 

The point that annoys me the most , is that you seem to not be really open to criticisms.

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Hi folks,

 

somehow this thread is peeing me off. Until now I have heard nothing but complaining.

 

Look, this is free software -as in free- that a single person wrote during the last 5 years.

There is no money involved, you don't have to pay anything to use it.

As a matter of fact you don't even have to use it all.

 

It is obvious that designing a tool that can be used for multiple systems is not as easy and its

usage is perhaps not as intuitive as when dealing with a single machine

(same goes for emulators like MAME and MESS).

 

Now, if the author is willing to support our machine (meaning investing a lot of additional

hours for implementation), you don't start to complain right away about what you don't like.

Especially not based on a 5 minutes experience. The thing is your voice is heard and is

influencing others.

 

There is a saying: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

For sure TommyGuns reactions were really harsh and out of line. And most likely due to the emotions

involved not longer based on facts. I guess we all defend our own babies.

 

Nonetheless I still hoped something could have been worked out once things cooled off a bit.

 

I for one would like to have seen a single reply as "well I actually will take the time to properly

test TommyGun. And you know what: the GUI might not be that shitty after all. Perhaps this IDE can

even do something for me".

 

But hey, no worries. This was the first and last time I proposed anything around here.

 

 

retroclouds

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I for one would like to have seen a single reply as "well I actually will take the time to properly

test TommyGun. And you know what: the GUI might not be that shitty after all. Perhaps this IDE can

even do something for me".

 

you should re-read my post. It is exactly what i said. I will do when the coleco support will be here. For now all my project are on colecovision, so i didn't have time to invest and test the tool for C64 or else. But if the coleco is here, i will try on a project i 'm working or plan to work on.

 

I also develop tools for Free, i have hundreds (if not thousand) of users for my totally free front end (http://www.atomicfe.com) i develop for 5 years too and also alone. And i permently take all critics and advice from user to try to make it better. My Tool is not perfect , and user help me to make it better thanks to their criticism. So the TommyGun tool is may be very good but the Attitude of the author does not really encourage to use it.

 

We just said that the UI is not so user friendly or intuitive. It is something we can judge without digging into the tool. It is the first think we see. And saying that it does not mean the tool is bad or not.

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As I said earlier, to each his own. There will always be people who will like what you've done and others that won't. It's just the way it is. Your tool could be perfect and there will still be people who disagree with it's implementation for whatever reason, right or wrong. If people say it sucks without any suggestions or constructive criticism I'd take those with a grain of salt. As for those who provide useful comments/suggestions, take that as a opportunity to improve your tool, not as a personal attack. Admittedly, often it's all in the delivery of the message. Some people tend to be more politically correct that others. Either way don't take it personally and definitely don't let it detract you from developing the tool.

 

tjb

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Dear TommyGun,

 

Excuse us for the aggresive reception you got here, nice to meet you, my name is Daniel Bienvenu... someone called me the godfather, I don't know if it's because Coleco homebrew scene is like a family or because I give the impression of being there during so much time that I'm no more a kid in this subject, or because I give the impression of a controler freak, I don't know. Anyway...

 

I'm willing to give it a try, but not at the moment. I think I did saw this tool before when I was looking for an IDE and find one for ZX Spectrum development, but that's another story.

 

Even if I didn't try your tool yet, I can tell you that I did get the same attitude about my tools... but I still continue because there are people who do use them for their projects.

 

The way I deal with the 1K of RAM is to focus on what the ColecoVision BIOS can offer, at least part of it. This way, it avoids some codings in the game cartridge, and so far this strategy works pretty well to be able to make 4K minigames a couple of times in C language. Reccently, I did start porting my stuff to make it compatible with SDCC, which need not only to change the libraries but also the tools. I'm still working on this, and making projects with this new devkit help me to improve it. Because of all this work to do and game projects I still have to complete, I may not be able to try your tool or consider to use it for Coleco projects myself, but it doesn't mean that I'm against it.

 

Excuse us again and have a nice day!

 

Sincerely,

 

Daniel Bienvenu

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