41 replies to this topic

[SoulBlazer]

That's one easy, the 32X logo is the other way when compared to the others. The Sega Saturn thing eariler I didn't notice.

It does kind of remind me of Atari's quality control during the 86-92 period.

[jeremysart]

akator, on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:30 PM, said:

My experience is anecdotal, but that's what it is.

In 1992, my SMS controllers wore out from years of use. Not a quality control issue.

My brother's Genesis has to be replaced. I have the replacement and it works perfectly. I have 4 other Genesis consoles that all work perfectly.

My original, immaculate Game Gear was abducted by relatives. I didn't know what happened to it until a few years ago, and by that time it was trashed cosmetically. But it still works and is used at an in-laws home to entertain grandchildren. I have multiple Game Gears to replace it and fully understand the capacitor issues.

Nomad, still great.

My Saturn was purchased recently from Golden Ax, he cleaned and tested it. I works perfectly, although every time it is unplugged it looses the date and time. Not an issue.

My Dreamcasts all work perfectly. I only have multiples to make sure my huge investment in games isn't wasted.

I know that Sega had some issues with the Genesis, I remember my father bitching about how they had to deal with it. However, I never experienced anything except for the second-hand Genesis thing and the recent issues of Game Gears with bad caps.

I think the Sega quality control issue is blown out of proportion. I am willing to accept proof that my experiences are unusual and incorrect, but I would like evidence.

As I stated earlier, Segas quality control issues were more cosmetic. If you read the posts, most of the issues are with labels being printed backwards and upside down, or game titles completely missing from the spine.

As far as reliability of their systems, all of my Sega consoles, model 1 sega w/ cd, model 2 sega w/ 32x, master system, saturn, dreamcast, and game gear all work fine.

I did have some issues with my Dreamcast's eye going out of alignment, but it was a fairly easy fix after watching some instructional videos on youtube.

[the.golden.ax]

Ug! When I hear about how solid systems are working for someone (and therefore they must all be solid) I cringe. Today I fixed 24 (that's how many I brought back to life) Genesis 2 systems (6 couldn't be fixed, drink spills etc). Almost every Gen2 has loose power issues. The solder dried out, and from plugging and replugging, they get loose, like allot of laptops. Sega had a fix for this. Soldering a wire from the defective location, to another spot on the board for positive and negative. However, they didn't attach directly to the power input, but to the rotted disconnected broken solder location to begin with. So their repairs and solution didn't hold over the years either.

As a large volume seller, collector, former store owner, I can say Genesis 2 has about a 90% fail rate due to that reason. Saturn has around a 33% laser fail rate, Dreamcast around 50%, game gear sound boards are horrid maybe 75% fail rate there. The master system was the most reliable, and perhaps because it was most simplistic.

Okay done ranting

AX

[Koopa64]

^How does the 32X, Sega CD and Nomad fit into all of that?

[the.golden.ax]

32x is fairly durable if you get past the hook-up interface, most people can't figure it out. I've never seen a real dead one. Nomad, the contrast knobs failed all the time. Sega CD was more dead spindles than lasers, and horrible connections again, like the 32x.

AX

[Koopa64]

Rev. Rob, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:14 AM, said:

Koopa64, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:39 PM, said:

coyo5050, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:26 PM, said:

Reaperman, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:28 PM, said:

hell, in addition to just sounding like crap, many of the genesis systems weren't even compatible with all games. I've seen some really weird genesis compatibility issues. I kept buying copies of knuckles chaotix (32x) because I thought I kept getting bad ones. Turns out it was the genesis under the 32x that wouldn't play them. Both were genesis 2 units, and it wasn't a cleaning issue.

to include dreamcast, whole shipments of certain launch games didn't work. I went through 4 copies of airforce delta before I got one that worked.

My copy starts, then the graphics scramble and it locks up. Is this a known issue or something? I thought the cart must be bad since other carts worked fine on the 32x.

This is only from what I've heard, but some Model 2 Genesis consoles need some sort of "dongle" where the Sega CD plugs in if one is not present in order to play Knuckles' Chaotix. I don't even know what this "dongle" looks like but I've heard from at least a few reputable people that what I mentioned here is true.

I have one of these. I forget what the instruction manual called it (which I can't find right now), but I called Sega of America and they said it was to increase performance. There's nothing inside of the device other than contacts. It was apparently an attempt to get the FCC to approve the 32X. I've read that later 32X units didn't include this with the later units.

Could you snap me a pic?

[Koopa64]

the.golden.ax, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:12 PM, said:

32x is fairly durable if you get past the hook-up interface, most people can't figure it out. I've never seen a real dead one. Nomad, the contrast knobs failed all the time. Sega CD was more dead spindles than lasers, and horrible connections again, like the 32x.

AX

I've heard about those Nomad contrast knobs breaking before, didn't think it was that bad.

Nice to see the 32X has withstood the test of time, even though it died an unhonorable death...

[Rev. Rob]

Koopa64, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:14 PM, said:

Rev. Rob, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:14 AM, said:

Koopa64, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:39 PM, said:

coyo5050, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:26 PM, said:

Reaperman, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:28 PM, said:

hell, in addition to just sounding like crap, many of the genesis systems weren't even compatible with all games. I've seen some really weird genesis compatibility issues. I kept buying copies of knuckles chaotix (32x) because I thought I kept getting bad ones. Turns out it was the genesis under the 32x that wouldn't play them. Both were genesis 2 units, and it wasn't a cleaning issue.

to include dreamcast, whole shipments of certain launch games didn't work. I went through 4 copies of airforce delta before I got one that worked.

My copy starts, then the graphics scramble and it locks up. Is this a known issue or something? I thought the cart must be bad since other carts worked fine on the 32x.

This is only from what I've heard, but some Model 2 Genesis consoles need some sort of "dongle" where the Sega CD plugs in if one is not present in order to play Knuckles' Chaotix. I don't even know what this "dongle" looks like but I've heard from at least a few reputable people that what I mentioned here is true.

I have one of these. I forget what the instruction manual called it (which I can't find right now), but I called Sega of America and they said it was to increase performance. There's nothing inside of the device other than contacts. It was apparently an attempt to get the FCC to approve the 32X. I've read that later 32X units didn't include this with the later units.

Could you snap me a pic?

Sure. Here it is installed no my Model 1 Genesis, and then various angles on its own.

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by Rev. Rob, Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:52 PM.

[gdement]

I think it's important to point out that "model 1" Genesis really just refers to the plastic shell.
There's several different mainboard revisions in those things, some better than others. I do believe that mid-life revisions of the model 1 are probably very good. Although if you get to the late model-1, then those have sound quality problems.

Mine, which started having problems at only 1-2 yrs old, was an earlier revision (VA3). I've only owned one personally but from photos online I think other VA3's are just like mine. It doesn't look like good build quality to me:

The VA3 apparently didn't even work right as designed - Sega did rework on them, including soldering parts to places where no proper solder pad exists. One is literally soldered into a hole that was dug in the PCB, there's a cap on the back of the board, another soldered to the CD edge connector, etc.
I find it odd that it seems not to have through-hole vias, and they instead soldered the components separately on the top and bottom of the board. Maybe this was normal at the time, I have no idea.
My board had 1 very bad solder joint, which would be obvious to anybody who looked at it.
They also used Chhsi capacitors, which is a notoriously bad/cheap brand. I don't know if this was known in the 80's though, and those caps didn't cause a major problem on my Genesis until just a few years ago.

Basically, I think this board was hung together with bailing wire and shipped to meet early demand. That's not an uncommon problem with new consoles. Later revisions are probably a lot better.

[shadow460]

I have really got to get that video amp and hook up my 32X...

I've never had much trouble with Sega equipment, though. The one thing that gives me the most trouble is my Saturn's cart slot. It's still very usable, though. It takes a bit of patience to get it going sometimes, and just in general keeping things clean. Back in the day I switched between the Backup cart and the NetLink. These days I use that same Backup cart and a Game Shark (yes, even though I don't recommend use of a GS).
I've got one Game Gear that needs a cap kit. I've a one owner Game Gear as well that shows no signs at all of needing anything replaced.
I've owned three Dreamcast units and had not a single problem with any. I've played three Saturn units regularly, had one since it was new, and aside from the cart slot, I've had no other problems. Two of them were never used with any cartridges to my knowledge.
My Genesis 3 hasn't given my any major problems. I am going to remove the AV plug from it, though, since I soldered RCA cables direct to the board. Even though it says "Pioneer" on the front, parts of my LaserActive are made by Sega and the whole thing runs without fail.

Compared to others, Sega hardware is par for the course, as is Nintendo hardware. Atari hardware tends to be a bit more reliable than most, whereas whether Sony hardware runs or not seems to depend on the weather.

[Seob]

I have 2 game gears with bad caps, 1 saturn that only works when the outer plastic shell is remove, because of overheating issues. But since most of these are we'll over they're suspected time of use i think it is only normal that they stop working. Remember most consoles are build to last a 10 year period, since by then most people have already a new generation console. Same with most percent electronic devices. They are just build to last a couple of years. They are not build the same as at the time consumer electronics started to get installed in households. Face it we live in a trow away society. If i need new ink, it's almost cheaper to buy a new printer then buying original replacement cartridges.
Just like the nes get trouble with it's cart slot. I still think the quality checks of microsoft are more worse. Never had a console that is so noisy, so sensitive for discs, and overheating then a xbox360.

[Bruce Tomlin]

Rev. Rob, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:52 PM, said:

Sure. Here it is installed no my Model 1 Genesis, and then various angles on its own.

Without seeing the innards, I can't say for sure, but I'm betting it's a bus terminator of some sort. It probably just has some resistor packs and maybe a couple of capacitors.

[Koopa64]

Rev. Rob: Thanks a ton for posting those pics! I seriously have never seen one of those. At first I thought they were a hoax or something, information was practically non-existent on those things.

[atarian63]

jeremysart, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:19 PM, said:

atarian63, on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:55 PM, said:

Interesting, I had all the systems and other than 32x I have had no problems at all. Yeah game gear sound was low but after many many years i did not think it was a big deal. quick cap replace and all is well.

Were mostly talking about quality control issues like misprints and what not. But let me hear anyone say game gear is bad.. It was one of the best hand helds ever!! Way ahead of its time.

Now it is pretty funny sitting next to a psp slim.

I get you on that. I did have a Game gear problem though. nothing really fair to complain about due to age. It had the low sound volume problem which turned out to be a bad cap.

[atarian63]

the.golden.ax, on Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:11 PM, said:

Ug! When I hear about how solid systems are working for someone (and therefore they must all be solid) I cringe. Today I fixed 24 (that's how many I brought back to life) Genesis 2 systems (6 couldn't be fixed, drink spills etc). Almost every Gen2 has loose power issues. The solder dried out, and from plugging and replugging, they get loose, like allot of laptops. Sega had a fix for this. Soldering a wire from the defective location, to another spot on the board for positive and negative. However, they didn't attach directly to the power input, but to the rotted disconnected broken solder location to begin with. So their repairs and solution didn't hold over the years either.

As a large volume seller, collector, former store owner, I can say Genesis 2 has about a 90% fail rate due to that reason. Saturn has around a 33% laser fail rate, Dreamcast around 50%, game gear sound boards are horrid maybe 75% fail rate there. The master system was the most reliable, and perhaps because it was most simplistic.

Okay done ranting

AX

Hi Ax,

We sold these in my retail store during the heyday of each, now I am not saying they were well made as they are not, however when new the return rate was fairly low on 1st gen genesis, fair on 2nd gen. 32x failures were due to idiots and really not failures. Saturn failure was pretty low. We did a closeout one time on dealer retuens to a large distributor. There were all the hundreds and hundreds of RMA's there in the warehouse. We bought them all at maybe $0.05 on the dollar and when we tested them maybe 10% actually were bad, this included Both Genesis models,32x,saturn and game gear and well a several hundred nomads. The Nomads were as you say often the contrast dial though very few were actually defective in any way. Mostly stupids people returning it due to low battery life with the adapter. I will say most of the Sega CD units were bad.
Dreamcast returns when new were low and rare.I will say most of the Sega CD units were bad.
It is interesting to see from your repairs which ones hold up in spite of poor quality and which do not.
I do have to say I love getting ahold of consumer returns. The general public is not very bright, actual bad items for us have been below 20% and less after you repair them. Seems to apply to PC's,and other consumer electronics other than tv's.

Here is a sort of related one for you in the same vein. IBM made a 17"vga monitor back in the day model g72. Many many would come back to the leasing companies with a video problem that looked like smears on the screen. This is in the days when this monitor sold new for $299. You can guess the problem.. filter caps on the neck board... Ibm used a zillion screws for rf but would finally got the repair down to 3 caps and back together in 25 minutes done assembly line style. We sold those as refurb and even sold some back to IBM leasing for $149 each. My cost not including the repair was $5 per monitor and about $1 in freight as I was buying them by the 53'trailer load. Goota love caps. We still do Dell pc's with cap problems to this day.

Edited by atarian63, Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:16 PM.

[atarian63]

[quote name='atarian63' date='Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:11 PM' timestamp='1258913509' post='1883332']
[quote name='the.golden.ax' date='Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:11 PM' timestamp='1258837893' post='1882849']
Ug! When I hear about how solid systems are working for someone (and therefore they must all be solid) I cringe. Today I fixed 24 (that's how many I brought back to life) Genesis 2 systems (6 couldn't be fixed, drink spills etc). Almost every Gen2 has loose power issues. The solder dried out, and from plugging and replugging, they get loose, like allot of laptops. Sega had a fix for this. Soldering a wire from the defective location, to another spot on the board for positive and negative. However, they didn't attach directly to the power input, but to the rotted disconnected broken solder location to begin with. So their repairs and solution didn't hold over the years either.

As a large volume seller, collector, former store owner, I can say Genesis 2 has about a 90% fail rate due to that reason. Saturn has around a 33% laser fail rate, Dreamcast around 50%, game gear sound boards are horrid maybe 75% fail rate there. The master system was the most reliable, and perhaps because it was most simplistic.

Okay done ranting

AX
[/quote]
Hi Ax,

We sold these in my retail store during the heyday of each, now I am not saying they were well made as they are not, however when new the return rate was fairly low on 1st gen genesis, fair on 2nd gen. 32x failures were due to idiots and really not failures. Saturn failure was pretty low. We did a closeout one time on dealer retuens to a large distributor. There were all the hundreds and hundreds of RMA's there in the warehouse. We bought them all at maybe $0.05 on the dollar and when we tested them maybe 10% actually were bad, this included Both Genesis models,32x,saturn and game gear and well a several hundred nomads. The Nomads were as you say often the contrast dial though very few were actually defective in any way. Mostly stupid people returning it due to low battery life with the adapter. I will say most of the Sega CD units were bad.
Dreamcast returns when new were low and rare.I will say most of the Sega CD units were bad.
It is interesting to see from your repairs which ones hold up in spite of poor quality and which do not.
I do have to say I love getting ahold of consumer returns. The general public is not very bright, actual bad items for us have been below 20% and less after you repair them. Seems to apply to PC's,and other consumer electronics other than tv's.

Here is a sort of related one for you in the same vein. IBM made a 17"vga monitor back in the day model g72. Many many would come back to the leasing companies with a video problem that looked like smears on the screen. This is in the days when this monitor sold new for $299. You can guess the problem.. filter caps on the neck board... Ibm used a zillion screws for rf but we finally got the repair down to 3 caps and back together in 20 minutes done assembly line style.Using enough guys we could do 75 per day. We sold those as refurb and even sold some back to IBM leasing for $149 each. My cost not including the repair was $5 per monitor and about $1 in freight as I was buying them by the 53'trailer load. Gotta love caps. We still do Dell pc's with cap problems to this day.

Edited by atarian63, Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:24 PM.

[the.golden.ax]

If not for return liquidation, the last four years of my life would have been very fruitless. God bless retail customer returns.

AX