Atari 8bit is superior to the ST

[Albert]

Guys, drop it and move on or I will lock this thread and lock any future "vs" threads that pop up.

 

..Al

[Divya16]

That bout of trolling almost deserves a slow clap ... almost.

Sorry people, after he tried to manipulate things like he had in the VS 64 thread I just said not again.

 

 

I am with Albert and Heaven; lock the thread. I haven't read most of it, but recently it's just bickering over who said what. And the above wasn't true as I did read that thread.

[Rybags]

That about covers it.

 

If some of the people around here actually put half the effort of the pointless arguing into actually sitting down and banging out some code for a demo/game/app/whatever, they'd command a lot more respect around here.

[dwhyte]

I am with Albert and Heaven; lock the thread. I haven't read most of it, but recently it's just bickering over who said what. And the above wasn't true as I did read that thread.

 

Here, here. I concur....

[JamesD]

Which system has the most games that are considered classics. Perhaps I should say cult classics.

 

The only thing from the ST I've seen on a top games list was Populous.

Psygnosis made some great ST/Amiga games but I don't think I've ever seen them on a list.

 

On the 8 bit there's Star Raiders (the ST has a version but it's not the one mentioned), M.U.L.E. and I'm not sure what others. I know there are more.

 

Others for either system you've seen on greatest game lists or something similar?

[atarian63]

Which system has the most games that are considered classics. Perhaps I should say cult classics.

 

The only thing from the ST I've seen on a top games list was Populous.

Psygnosis made some great ST/Amiga games but I don't think I've ever seen them on a list.

 

On the 8 bit there's Star Raiders (the ST has a version but it's not the one mentioned), M.U.L.E. and I'm not sure what others. I know there are more.

 

Others for either system you've seen on greatest game lists or something similar?

For what it's worth the ST version of Star Raiders is quite nice,really looks good!

[oky2000]

To be honest it was a strange comparison in the first place, sure the ST has no custom chips as such but there comes a point where machine A custom chips can be pretty much replicated in next generation machine B processing power/data bandwidth.

 

What I would like to see compared are things more of their time, for example.

 

A8 vs Apple II

 

or

 

A8 vs IBM-PC (not clones..standard PC at each significant machine upgrade)

 

So for example.

 

A8 via Atari 800 48k + Disc drive & DOS in 1979 with IBM PC XT of same era of highest spec + Disk drive & MS DOs.

A8 via 1200XL similar setup vs IBM PC top of the line machine @ launch date of 1200XL

 

(I excluded the 800XL and 65/130XE as basically they are identical to the 800XL really)

 

Can't really think of any other machines of the time which had a significantly large market as the C64/PC/Apple II and we did the C64 one to death. I would genuinely be interested in discussions on the other two as being of UK origin I really never saw the need for either an Apple II or PC.

[JamesD]

For what it's worth the ST version of Star Raiders is quite nice,really looks good!

I've seen pictures but never played it. Some people have said it's good and others have said the 8 bit version was more playable. I've always been curious but haven't gotten to try it myself.

Star Raiders was the game I always wanted on my computer but I didn't have an Atari.

[Rybags]

I loaded it up a few weeks ago briefly.

 

Looks OK in still pics - game itself is a pisspoor conversion.

 

Forget it so far as ST classics - I'd be looking more along the lines of games like Carrier Command, Megalomania, Cannon Fodder. Probably not so prominent in the day as they were up against a whole bunch of 16-bit console games that seem to figure more in so-called historian's recalls.

[JamesD]

I loaded it up a few weeks ago briefly.

 

Looks OK in still pics - game itself is a pisspoor conversion.

 

Forget it so far as ST classics - I'd be looking more along the lines of games like Carrier Command, Megalomania, Cannon Fodder. Probably not so prominent in the day as they were up against a whole bunch of 16-bit console games that seem to figure more in so-called historian's recalls.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Console games are on the list but I almost never see the ST.

I think a lot of the people that write the lists were playing consoles instead of the ST or Amiga.

 

I remember Carrier Command on the Amiga. It was really impressive for the time. I saw Starglider first though so I think I was more impressed with it. I only got to play them in the store and I think Starglider was easier to learn so maybe that had something to do with it.

[JamesD]

To be honest it was a strange comparison in the first place, sure the ST has no custom chips as such but there comes a point where machine A custom chips can be pretty much replicated in next generation machine B processing power/data bandwidth.

Well... they were both Ataris and maybe someone wanted to see if others felt like they did.

 

What I would like to see compared are things more of their time, for example.

 

A8 vs Apple II

 

or

 

A8 vs IBM-PC (not clones..standard PC at each significant machine upgrade)

 

So for example.

 

A8 via Atari 800 48k + Disc drive & DOS in 1979 with IBM PC XT of same era of highest spec + Disk drive & MS DOs.

A8 via 1200XL similar setup vs IBM PC top of the line machine @ launch date of 1200XL

 

(I excluded the 800XL and 65/130XE as basically they are identical to the 800XL really)

 

Can't really think of any other machines of the time which had a significantly large market as the C64/PC/Apple II and we did the C64 one to death. I would genuinely be interested in discussions on the other two as being of UK origin I really never saw the need for either an Apple II or PC.

I think a general comparison of all 8 bits would be interesting. Just so it doesn't get too deep into this or that feature is better than some other Computer's feature.

[Rybags]

Practically every historical recall I've seen or read by so-called experts relating to the mid-late 1980s conveniently all but ignores the ST and Amiga and just rants on about the crap that was coming out for the NES, SMS, then SNES and Megadrive.

 

It should also be noted that many classics of that time were multi-platform and in most cases the console versions were markedly inferior to the computer releases.

[+remowilliams]

Here it comes.

Thank god. This mind numbingly pedantic 'bullcrap' from someone I can only attribute as some sort of challenged troll has gone on for 50 pages too long already.

 

Thanks to the folks who actually had something interesting and not psychotically deranged to put forward.

[ANTIQ]

SUMMARY

 

Solve the following inequalities:

 

ST > A8 > 0

 

A8 - ST > 0

[dwhyte]

I always found from a productivity application point of view, that the ST had a definite edge over the A8...

[+wood_jl]

re: A8 vs Apple, etc..... For some reason, the Commodore and Atari users have historically been at each other's throats and always given the Apple 2 a pass. Curious.

 

With these companies all dead now (not Apple) and the machines being antiques, I don't get the "threat." I mean, back when I was 15 and (surprisingly similar) vs. threads were hot on the BBSs (remember those?) it sort of made sense; You, the pimple-faced high schooler hoped to steer potential users to your brand and away from the competition. Commodore was eating Atari's lunch in the mid-80s and you hoped to curtail it somewhat via BBS flamewar. In reality, you really didn't have any influence, and nobody was going to listen to each other anyway.....ha ha sounds like today. Today, manifestations of those old teenage "us against them" feelings are a little too-easily stoked; I catch myself sometimes.

 

Suddenly, in the midst of the last A8 vs C64 flamewar, I realized (along with my age) there's no C= trying to eat Atari's lunch, there's no Atari (well, not in the classical sense), there's just a bunch of innocuous antique computers I didn't check out in the past, when I was less reasonable, and everything was hella-expensive. Now that they're cheap and these new devices make them extremely convenient to use, big-time software is available for download, it's an entirely different world. There's nothing left to hate. I'm not sure what all the fight is over, as we didn't build any of this stuff. I guess it's about "I picked this one and everything I have is the best." My father tried to teach me the fallacy of that when I was a kid....took a little while to sink in, I'll admit. As well, the fight may be the ego-driven ssue of "I'm right."

 

Personally, the A8, C64, ST, and Amiga machines will always be the most interesting to me, because of the fact that they pretty much represent the "home" computing era to me, in 2 phases. Reasonably well-featured, reasonably affordable, fairly competitive. The Apple stuff was good, but was just so much more expensive it seemed like it was for institutions who could afford it and not kids who threw newspapers and flipped burgers to pay for their home computers.

[Crazyace]

You asked in post #1288. Sorry, I haven't had time to write my own application to map 24-bit RGB to A8s palette nor any need for it as it's distinctively clear from logic and analysis that A8 palette is superior to ST. I bet I can write a 24-bit to 3-3-3 RGB pretty fast. AND by 0xE0 each primary. Photochrome writers must be geniuses.

 

Well, I was asking you to back up your point - I assumed you had the technical knowledge to do it. The parrot picture isn't that important to me - I just placed it as an example from the web of a 128 colour picture.

Don't worry though - I'm still waiting for your Kaliya picture on A8 , as I've said several times, as I'm interested in how that looks on an A8. ( If you've only made it on photoshop just let me know, as I can stop asking for it )

[Crazyace]

Ah well, I should really read all of the thread overnight before replying

[Marius]

Guys, drop it and move on or I will lock this thread and lock any future "vs" threads that pop up.

 

..Al

 

Please do!

 

I really do regret I started this thread. As said before it was not my intention to get all this crap.

 

The topic bring good things for me too. I really enjoy my Atari ST again. Thanks to the Atari ST fans, I look with a complete different look to that machine. It's a great system, and next to my Atari 8bit it is fun too!

 

But due to some people here, this thread is finished in garbage. Thanks guys. Very well done.

 

@Albert: So please, please lock this thread, and perhaps you even can delete it at all. I'm the topicstarter, and I really have a not so good feeling being TS from this braindead thread.

[carmel_andrews]

Guys, drop it and move on or I will lock this thread and lock any future "vs" threads that pop up.

 

..Al

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you can give me that wish on my B'day (24 day's away)

[Crazyace]

Guys, drop it and move on or I will lock this thread and lock any future "vs" threads that pop up.

 

..Al

 

Please do!

 

I really do regret I started this thread. As said before it was not my intention to get all this crap.

 

The topic bring good things for me too. I really enjoy my Atari ST again. Thanks to the Atari ST fans, I look with a complete different look to that machine. It's a great system, and next to my Atari 8bit it is fun too!

 

But due to some people here, this thread is finished in garbage. Thanks guys. Very well done.

 

@Albert: So please, please lock this thread, and perhaps you even can delete it at all. I'm the topicstarter, and I really have a not so good feeling being TS from this braindead thread.

 

The topic was interesting , and the results of the poll show a far more balanced view than a lot of the back and forth arguing would suggest ( even Atariksi only voted 'most things better on a8' ) - It's always interesting seeing the evidence given as backup - I would never have looked at Photochrome if I hadn't picked up on ST stuff again, and PeteD's APAC conversions ( and the odd C64 picture that crept in ) are also interesting to look at. Even the 160x240x16 mixed resolution picture Atariksi put up was cool - if it was on A8 I think it's a really really good piece of handiwork.

[+wood_jl]

To be honest, I don't understand the requests to "lock this thread."

 

I completely understand the prerogative of the proprietor (Albert) to control HIS forum in any way that he sees fit, including locking threads.

 

What I don't understand - and perhaps some of the "please lock the thread" crowd can elucidate - is why you would voluntarily click on (repeatedly) this thread - when you [should] have a fairly accurate idea of what's going on here - and then ask for it to be locked. This is a completely separate issue from the needs of the thread to be policed; I just wonder - in all seriousness - why someone would keep coming back to a thread they don't like, and asked for it to be locked, when free will abounds.

 

As the previous poster said, it has been [in part] interesting. It has been entertaining. It did get a little out of hand. Personally, I roll the mouse wheel over (and do not click on) objectionable content, and trust the thread locking judgement solely to the proprietor, who I seriously doubt needs my opinion.

[kool kitty89]

But in this situation we're talking about fixed values. If the A8 had palette registers not indexes (like the ST where you give it the RGB values, not pick them from 512) but in YUV then there'd be some room for utilising the head/toe room of the YUV formulas. As it is they're pretty much classed as errors when converting (from an RGB viewpoint) because they do produce ranges you don't really want to display normally.

From my experience VGA cannot reproduce the brighter colors of the A8 and C64. Has nothing to do with "formulas" but with $FFFFFF being a nice background color for MS Word instead of a bright white.

 

In this context, the ST doesn't use RGB via VGA , but via a TV - so that's where the comparision should be made

Hmm, but isn't a VGA connector (outside of additonal reserved pins and data lines -USB hubs and such built into monitors) just analog RGB connections with separate Vsync and Hsync pins and individual gnd lines? Other than the 31 kHz minimum hsync limitation (not even true on early EGA/CGA compatible VGA monitors) it's just anlog RGB, any other limitations would depend on the sourse's output and monitor itsself. (again, early VGA monitors should actually accept 15 kHz stuff like Atari/Commodore RGB monitors)

 

And int he YUV case, at some point the YPbPr/s-video/composite signals will need to be transcoded into RGB signals on a CRT. (digital displays are a separate issue)

 

 

In Europe...as a home machine....PC was nowhere in the DOS days....not until early 90s was it an acceptable choice (the time games were becoming VGA (ie NOT pathetic worse than C64 palette of EGA)

 

I'd say 6-bit RGB has definite advantages over the C64's palette, not universal of course -just as the 8-bit vs ST's palette... (the CGA/EGA/VGA default 16-color palettes are a separate issue)

...

Also @kitty my knowledge of EGA PC graphics used for games comes down to 16 colours, same as the C64, those 16 colours you can use however are very dubious in their saturation levels and look garish, and for whatever reason the C64 graphics (colour, not resolution of course before any anal nerd corrects me) in Defender of the Crown just look prettier than the PC EGA ones...despite both systems being 16 colour palette. The ST and Amiga obviously is far superior to EGA and two years ahead.

 

And for those people saying the colour saturation is too low on the C64 output erm...have you tried using a standard S-Video Y/C cable and adjusting your TV controls to your liking...JUST LIKE WHEN WATCHING A TV PROGRAM OR FILM ON IT

 

Well, I'm not sure, wiki lists that only the default palettes are available in CGA resolution modes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't EGA specific 320x200/640x200 modes, wiki is kind of vague and hardly foolproof of course, and in th enext paragraph it mentions that 320/640x200 modes can support full color on the standard 64 kB versions. (also mentions definitively that the full palette is available in 640x350 mode, though you'd be limited to 4 colors with the standard 64 kB cards) Of course the Tandy/PC Jr. had their own CGA extended graphics supporting 320x200x16 colors. (compatibility apparently not included under EGA/VGA, not sure if they used chunky pixels like CGA or switched to planar like EGA and VGA's 16-color modes)

 

However, given that a large number of games use the default VGA 256 color palette, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair number of games used the default palette. (it could have been worse, at least they replaced ochre with brown, and it's not that different from the TI-9918's YUV palette, plus it had 4 shades of gray, while the 9918 has 3 -plus one color reserved for transparent)

 

What's a bit stranger though, is some games (like Sierra's Thexder, Silpheed, and Thexder 2) use the full 640x350 EGA mode, but tend to look pretty garrish, lots of dithering and probably only 4 colors (targeting the lowest common denominator 64 kB EGA cards). It looks like CGA (and apple II) games meant to be displayed on blurry composite monitors when shown in RGB (all those vertical lines) The really weird part is that Thexder (and Silpheed) supported Tandy/PC Jr video and both look FAR better (better than the MSX version IMO -in part due to higher-color software sprites -havent seen the PC8801 original though -definitely had a larger palette, but was also limited to software rendering with a 3.58 MHz Z80), and we know those were limited to CGA's modified RGB-I palette, so I have absolutely no idea why they didn't use 320x200x16 colors for EGA mode. (hell you could go with 640x200x16 colors too on standard 64 kB EGA -if double buffering was possible, 320x200 would be advantageous there)

[Heaven/TQA]

To be honest, I don't understand the requests to "lock this thread."

 

I completely understand the prerogative of the proprietor (Albert) to control HIS forum in any way that he sees fit, including locking threads.

 

What I don't understand - and perhaps some of the "please lock the thread" crowd can elucidate - is why you would voluntarily click on (repeatedly) this thread - when you [should] have a fairly accurate idea of what's going on here - and then ask for it to be locked. This is a completely separate issue from the needs of the thread to be policed; I just wonder - in all seriousness - why someone would keep coming back to a thread they don't like, and asked for it to be locked, when free will abounds.

 

As the previous poster said, it has been [in part] interesting. It has been entertaining. It did get a little out of hand. Personally, I roll the mouse wheel over (and do not click on) objectionable content, and trust the thread locking judgement solely to the proprietor, who I seriously doubt needs my opinion.

 

locking because people getting insulting each other with my "lovely" word of the day "bullcrap"... as Rybags said... people should put more energy into creating something (app/code/interesting discussion) but not being attacking people... even there are some interesting facts here... but I would like to see Pete, Andy, Rybags et al not put away of their actual work...

 

and yes... formatwar.net is the better place...

[Crazyace]

Hmm, but isn't a VGA connector (outside of additonal reserved pins and data lines -USB hubs and such built into monitors) just analog RGB connections with separate Vsync and Hsync pins and individual gnd lines? Other than the 31 kHz minimum hsync limitation (not even true on early EGA/CGA compatible VGA monitors) it's just anlog RGB, any other limitations would depend on the sourse's output and monitor itsself. (again, early VGA monitors should actually accept 15 kHz stuff like Atari/Commodore RGB monitors)

 

And int he YUV case, at some point the YPbPr/s-video/composite signals will need to be transcoded into RGB signals on a CRT. (digital displays are a separate issue)

 

There are other differences between TV and VGA , both gamma power, and the colour temperature are different. ( And I guess, from Lazarus's initial point that there might be overdrive on R,G,or B - but you could just turn up the brightness to fix that. )

( I guess if you map all YCbCr values to RGB you can get negative values - which aren't valid for a normal RGB display )