106 replies to this topic

[Curt Vendel]

Wasn't Mike Mika supposed to do a book - 2600 Programming 101 or something like that? What ever happened to that?

I bet if someone did something EXACTLY along those lines, a step by step tutorial book:


Chap 1 - technicals
Chap 2 - tools & resources
Chap 3 - Make a playfield
Chap 4 - Make a sprite character
Chap 5 - Add control
Chap 6 - Add sounds
Chap 7 - Collision Detection
Chap 8 - Add foe's and AI
etc...


That would be a SUPERB tool for 7800 coders to get their feet wet and do a lot more games.



Curt

jaybird3rd, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:13 PM, said:

Gorf, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:35 AM, said:

So far the only possibilities I've seen are repeats of old classics....trust me. I'ev wasted plenty of time
wanting to resurrect the oldies but goldies...however, how many times does anyone actually play them once
they played through them? In gaming, we need a 'new drug' but I dont have much hope for that. After what
I've seen released over the past decade, Im not very hopefull. Fromt he classic systems and especially the
new over powered and greatly under used newer systems. As far as I am concerned, both Sony and Microsoft
can give away their new systems and I would not be intersted. Wii? A better attempt but really, besides
a different controller scheme that keeps you from gaining a fat ass, what have they done that is so special?

Not to take this thread off-track, but I've made exactly the same kinds of points in mos6507's Homebrew Discussion thread about the over-reliance on ports among homebrewers instead of original games, and the over-representation of the 2600 instead of other classic systems that are equally deserving of support (like the 7800). I too would love to see more experimentation and more original ideas in games, and I think the homebrew game development environment has the potential to accomplish this in ways that commercial game development and even shareware/freeware development cannot.

What is so valuable about the work that Curt and others have done is that it has provided the rich reservoir of knowledge that is needed to ignite the game development process: schematics, technical documentation, source code, the algorithms needed to sign game binaries for use with the stock 7800's protection scheme, development tools and libraries, etc. As more of these resources are rescued from oblivion and made available to the public, the barriers to entry are disappearing, and the easier it is becoming to learn the 7800 and to develop new games for it, both as a technical/intellectual exercise and as a means of artistic expression. Seeing all these resources, it's only natural for creative people to be inspired to do something with them.

As for me, I actually have this fantasy of using my technical writing background to organize all these various sources of knowledge into a book about homebrew game development, taking the reader from the basics of binary arithmetic all the way through the intricacies of MARIA and the 7800 architecture. I'd have to learn a lot more about the 7800 myself, and I'd want to get a few games under my belt first, but this is the kind of inspiration I'm talking about.

[Curt Vendel]

This is the 1702B. I have another tape out with the 1702C, I think I may have found the PAL MARIA as well, but I need to finish 2 other Corporate Research chip recovers first.

I have also recovered "Stellette" which is a later improved version of the Stella/TIA chip. What may be interesting is the recovery of the Ricoh 3in1 chip, if that can be recovered, it is a CMOS chip design and between that and recovery of the 1702C, that is the core of what is needed for a new true hardware 7800 recreation. Throw in some SRAM, re-do the video out (basically just drop the RF all together and go out straight Composite) and there is the potential of bringing the 7800 in a much smaller form factor back to life.


Curt

Mitch, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:08 PM, said:

Hmm, so which model is this 1702, 1712 or 1722?

Oh, and nice work, by the way.

Mitch

[Wickeycolumbus]

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:34 PM, said:

I have also recovered "Stellette" which is a later improved version of the Stella/TIA chip.

Very interesting. Is it a 2600 on a chip (or similar), or was it meant for an unreleased console?

[jaybird3rd]

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:29 PM, said:

Wasn't Mike Mika supposed to do a book - 2600 Programming 101 or something like that? What ever happened to that?

I bet if someone did something EXACTLY along those lines, a step by step tutorial book:

Chap 1 - technicals
Chap 2 - tools & resources
Chap 3 - Make a playfield
Chap 4 - Make a sprite character
Chap 5 - Add control
Chap 6 - Add sounds
Chap 7 - Collision Detection
Chap 8 - Add foe's and AI
etc...

That would be a SUPERB tool for 7800 coders to get their feet wet and do a lot more games.

Curt

That's very much like what I have in mind, along with a new suite of development tools: replacements for Atari's ST-based tools, a new transfer utility for DevOS (which I'm already working on), etc.

[PacManPlus]

Everybody seems to be talking down about porting arcade/console games to the 7800, but they are forgetting the fact that you can put different spins/options on these ports to bring new life into them. (i.e. like the options I did with Space Invaders to mimic the 2600 options, and the options I gave with Pac-Man Collection)

I don't see arcade ports as being an issue as long as games are being made for the 7800. Hell, I'm working on and off with a port of Frenzy that I anticipate having a two-player simultaneous mode for.

I said this in anoter thread: everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. There are other programmers on this board who are much better at coming up with new and original ideas, and they will create the 'new' style games. Others, like myself like making ports and possibly putting their own 'changes' or viewpoint on the game to make it (hopefully) just different enough to be interesting again.

Sorry if I seem like I take offense to the 'tired arcade ports' view of this, but ... I guess I do.

[jaybird3rd]

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

Everybody seems to be talking down about porting arcade/console games to the 7800, but they are forgetting the fact that you can put different spins/options on these ports to bring new life into them. (i.e. like the options I did with Space Invaders to mimic the 2600 options, and the options I gave with Pac-Man Collection)

I don't see arcade ports as being an issue as long as games are being made for the 7800. Hell, I'm working on and off with a port of Frenzy that I anticipate having a two-player simultaneous mode for.

My main issue with the ports is the idea of limiting them to "carbon copies" of the originals, as I've said elsewhere, but I don't have any objection at all to the kind of thing you're talking about: taking an established game and finding interesting ways of enhancing it. That's a kind of creativity in itself and isn't as easy to do as people think it is, and it can really add something valuable even to very familiar games. The 7800 library has done this already with several of the arcade ports that GCC did; my favorite example is 7800 Centipede with its simultaneous two-player competitive/team play options. That feature was unique to the 7800 version, and it's now my favorite version for that reason; my five-year-old nephew and I play it together every time he comes over to visit.

[AdeptRapier]

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

I don't see arcade ports as being an issue as long as games are being made for the 7800. Hell, I'm working on and off with a port of Frenzy that I anticipate having a two-player simultaneous mode for.

Oh my god, you would be BEYOND awesome if you made an arcade perfect port of "Frenzy" for the 7800... I LOVE that game!!!

I'm with you on this, although it is always fun to play an original game, my heart has always been in the arcade ports.

AdeptRapier

[Curt Vendel]

Just appears to be a 1982 update to the original 1977 TIA, its also referred to as Stephanie as well. I don't find any changes to it, but I'm still looking.



Curt

Wickeycolumbus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:05 PM, said:

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:34 PM, said:

I have also recovered "Stellette" which is a later improved version of the Stella/TIA chip.

Very interesting. Is it a 2600 on a chip (or similar), or was it meant for an unreleased console?

[Curt Vendel]

Bob is totally correct, especially given the fact that the 7800 can do things better in certain aspects. Look for instance at Space Duel - never done on the 5200 or 800 platforms, its a gorgeous port.

There are also opportunities to do other ports NOT ever done on an Atari console - like as he mentions - Frenzy, which would then be a great engine for Major Havoc. A 2 player Star Raiders could be done, other ports like Scramble, would be great on the 7800 too. Groovey has been working on some nice new games, he's shown my a private showing of an RPG game he's working on which is totally original. Bob is working on a sequel to Countermeasure on the 7800 called Failsafe which has a new twist to it making it a unique new game too, so they is plenty of originality mixed with Ports people definitely want.



Curt

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

Everybody seems to be talking down about porting arcade/console games to the 7800, but they are forgetting the fact that you can put different spins/options on these ports to bring new life into them. (i.e. like the options I did with Space Invaders to mimic the 2600 options, and the options I gave with Pac-Man Collection)

I don't see arcade ports as being an issue as long as games are being made for the 7800. Hell, I'm working on and off with a port of Frenzy that I anticipate having a two-player simultaneous mode for.

I said this in anoter thread: everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. There are other programmers on this board who are much better at coming up with new and original ideas, and they will create the 'new' style games. Others, like myself like making ports and possibly putting their own 'changes' or viewpoint on the game to make it (hopefully) just different enough to be interesting again.

Sorry if I seem like I take offense to the 'tired arcade ports' view of this, but ... I guess I do.

[nonner242]

AdeptRapier, on Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:08 AM, said:

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

I don't see arcade ports as being an issue as long as games are being made for the 7800. Hell, I'm working on and off with a port of Frenzy that I anticipate having a two-player simultaneous mode for.

Oh my god, you would be BEYOND awesome if you made an arcade perfect port of "Frenzy" for the 7800... I LOVE that game!!!

I'm with you on this, although it is always fun to play an original game, my heart has always been in the arcade ports.

AdeptRapier

That would be a dream come true for me also!

[Shawn Sr.]

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

Sorry if I seem like I take offense to the 'tired arcade ports' view of this, but ... I guess I do.

Don't listen to the haters Bob.

[thursday83]

I can't get enough of the arcade ports. Everything Bob does is well thought out, has incredible gameplay, and he picks great games to port as well. He's got the midas touch. Love the arcade ports. Love all the development going on in this system, and now MORE DEVELOPERS! It's awesome!

[Kurisu]

Frenzy on Maria? Oh... God.. YES!

On that thought, anyone thought about a Berzerk port to 7800? I know it was officially on the 5200, but that, for obvious reasons, gives it a limited market.

As for the arcade accurate VS original elements debate.. is that not what game variations are for? Take again Berzerk on 2600, variant 3 was the most arcade like, 1 had no Otto, and 2 had otto killable, a very fun unique thing (possibly to bean option at least least somewhat similar to otto Frenzy, who knows).

I mean, I am all of "original" and "new" modes to games. Makes them worth the buy.

Oh man this makes me want to learn how to work with TIA and MARIA.

[kool kitty89]

batari, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:46 PM, said:

That is cool, but I want to know how you're going to synthesize TIA chips...

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:34 PM, said:

This is the 1702B. I have another tape out with the 1702C, I think I may have found the PAL MARIA as well, but I need to finish 2 other Corporate Research chip recovers first.

I have also recovered "Stellette" which is a later improved version of the Stella/TIA chip. What may be interesting is the recovery of the Ricoh 3in1 chip, if that can be recovered, it is a CMOS chip design and between that and recovery of the 1702C, that is the core of what is needed for a new true hardware 7800 recreation. Throw in some SRAM, re-do the video out (basically just drop the RF all together and go out straight Composite) and there is the potential of bringing the 7800 in a much smaller form factor back to life.


Curt

Mitch, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:08 PM, said:

Hmm, so which model is this 1702, 1712 or 1722?

Oh, and nice work, by the way.

Mitch

The JAN chip was the integrated VCS ASIC designed for the 2600 Jr. right? (and actually used on sole late Jrs I seem to recall).


You've already got a fully compatible VCS ASIC used for the Flashback II, right? Couldn't that be used in conjunction with a new MARIA chip to create a modern 7800? (optimally you'd want a single chip ASIC though, and if built-in games were planned, perhaps POKEY built-in as well -the 2 POKEY games being some of the best 7800 games -BallBlazer especially)

[edweird13]

Aside from the awesome Atari based arcade ports that use real hardware. There is great potential with this. Look at the stuff that groovybee has been doing for the 7800. I see nothing but greatness if a project was to come of this.

[Bruce Tomlin]

So Curt, you have GCC's original tapeout files and are converting them to a modern format? Nice. Of course the next step is VHDL or Verilog, but it should be much more accurate with the complete original design to work from.


As for the ports thing, I don't have a problem with someone porting a rarely-ported game, or a good non-coin-op game that only appeared on a rare system. But when someone ports a mediocre game instead of coming up with something original, that's not so good.

[Gorf]

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:22 PM, said:

Your right Steve, lets toss out the original copy of the Constitution.

Since our current govt wipes it's ass with it any more, might as well.

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:22 PM, said:

hey why not ask Woz to throw out the last remaining Apple 1's too.

Wont see me shead a tear. Never liked anything from Apple....including Woz.

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:22 PM, said:

Give the Smithsonian a call, tell them to toss out the recovered Mercury 7 capsules too, hey its just history, right :-/

Since they bury relics and fossils in their basements that would re-write their precious fanatsies
about how the world really came into being, they might as well. To me the worst lie is the one with
the most truth in it. Less than 100% is still a lie and the closer it is to 100% without achiving
100% is the most nasty of lies.

Edited by Gorf, Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:22 PM.

[Gorf]

Curt Vendel, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:24 PM, said:

Dude --- you're getting very depressing, try some lithium, I hear it works well for manic depressants.....

Who me? Im not in the least bit depressed. Drugs dont cure depression anyway. They just hide the problem.
I for one like to think myself a realist. If you want to waste time and money for something, by all means
dont let me stop you. I also know you understand just how much I love the 7800 as well a classic arcade
games. However, there comes a point where it's time to move on and realize you are never going to 'resurrect'
the 7800 or the old classics to a point that even comes close to what they once were. If you really believe
this I have some land in East Rutherford to sell you. If that's not your cup of tea, there is a nice bridge
in Brooklyn that might be more your style?

[Gorf]

PacManPlus, on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:36 PM, said:

Sorry if I seem like I take offense to the 'tired arcade ports' view of this, but ... I guess I do.

I don't know why. I also dont believe you (nor Curt) understood a single word I said.
I've not lost any love for the classics or the 7800. I think for one it's a waste of
time money and effort to bother resurrecting a chip that is way obsolete and for yet
another, how many more times are we going to port the same old classics? It would be
nice to see some updated graphics and sound but the same thing over and over? Familiarity
breeds content I guess...maybe that's my problem. Also, This is in no way, shape or form
a put down on your efforts or Curt's for that matter. Both are amazing and well done but
to what end is all Im asking.

Now if Curt want's to keep the die around to make a run for replacements, that's a useful
reason. But will we ever see it do anything more than that? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Crazyace]

Curt's efforts are worth it just for the information he makes public - His site is really cool and I look forward to the info he and Marty unveil on all of the Atari Corp projects. If he makes a 7800 flashback I'm sure it will sell enough units to return his investments
Sometimes I look back on some of the cool hardware I've worked on in my current job - and I wish that they'd show up via digital archaeology in the future. I doubt if they will though...

[Shawn Sr.]

Gorf, on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:21 PM, said:

how many more times are we going to port the same old classics? It would be
nice to see some updated graphics and sound but the same thing over and over? Familiarity
breeds content I guess...maybe that's my problem.

How many different consoles have you wrote the game Gorf (or a clone with the same game mechanics) for?

[The_Laird]

Shawn Sr., on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:43 PM, said:

Gorf, on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:21 PM, said:

how many more times are we going to port the same old classics? It would be
nice to see some updated graphics and sound but the same thing over and over? Familiarity
breeds content I guess...maybe that's my problem.

How many different consoles have you wrote the game Gorf (or a clone with the same game mechanics) for?

He has only released it for the Jag CD, thats it

Edited by The_Laird, Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:53 PM.

[CPUWIZ]

The_Laird, on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:52 PM, said:

Shawn Sr., on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:43 PM, said:

Gorf, on Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:21 PM, said:

how many more times are we going to port the same old classics? It would be
nice to see some updated graphics and sound but the same thing over and over? Familiarity
breeds content I guess...maybe that's my problem.

How many different consoles have you wrote the game Gorf (or a clone with the same game mechanics) for?

He has only released it for the Jag CD, thats it

I think you missed the point and on top of that he was working on a Gorf clone for the 7800 too.

[The_Laird]

I noticed that post was edited.

I didn't miss the point at all. He was working on a game a bit similar to Gorf for the 7800 but it was much more like Demon Attck or Phoenix.

[potatohead]

Jesus Gorf! To what end?

Enjoying the tech, period. Retro is growing in popularity, adding to the relevance of efforts like this, not subtracting from them.

For me personally, I find the ongoing revelations and innovations in the Atari scene a happy and educational distraction from the daily grind. A quick look back over the history shows lots of smart people doing ever increasingly complex things, squeezing ever more out of the design, pushing it way past known and expected limits of the time.

That's a wonderful story, and is part of the spark the hobby has to attract people.

Re: Ports -vs- originals.

Well, there are enough originals being produced to keep me happy. And sometimes a port makes great sense, particularly when it's tweaked to fit a particular technology base. Sometimes great things happen. Other times it's just a port...

What I found interesting about the last retro game show I went to was the very high number of 20 and 30 somethings there. I talked with a number of them, and they like the scene because it's simple, most of the people are quality, and it's all kind of fun and not all that expensive to participate in. Many of those people brought their kids too!

The real beauty of retro, and that's NES and everything before it, is ordinary people can jump in and do stuff --really cool stuff, if the want to! The costs are low, learning barriers low, and potential is high due to the lower expectations that come with the hardware. That was the magic of the time, though few of us knew it then. Now it's easy to look back and see the simple fun for what it was, and it seems that still packs a punch today.

The extra kick is it all being simple enough to be just open. This makes sharing things, working on projects, and enjoying the history and such all totally doable without a lot of worries. Again, nice and simple, the core of retro, IMHO.

(or those game shows would not be seeing the numbers they would and the age demographics they increasingly are)

Did it ever occur to you that Mr. Vendel just really likes what the company was, the tech of the time, and has a kick time just checking it all out, building projects, and sharing stuff? That's why dude.

The greater purpose is personal gratification, secondly being able to share that with peers.

Let's say you do the coolest thing ever. You are then gratified by your own standards. Let's say you show 'n tell and nobody cares. Is it still cool? Maybe, depending on whether or not any of us allow others expectations to dictate our own.

Here, there are peers who gather to enjoy these things, and that multiples the gratification and in the end, that's all we ever take with us.

Edited by potatohead, Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:17 PM.