Is that an Atari cartridge in your pocket or . . .

[Albert]

But the second I take the value of a protected brand and it's trademarks, and try and re-appropriate it for my own commercial product, that's illegal. If he had even stated that they're just video game carts being made in to wallets and had a single price for all, that wouldn't be as much of an issue. But he's not - text are $35, picture are $55. And add to that the unlicensed video game characters his wife is putting on arm bands to sell along with these? Come on now, they know exactly what they're doing. There's a reason their site is registered via a private proxy. And his site clearly sates he's produced a couple of thousand.

I will defer to you on the legality, without actually seeing the applicable laws surrounding this issue. This sort of thing occurs quite frequently--people make art and other items like this from "repurposed" objects all the time and I'd be amazed if even 1% of these resulted in a lawsuit. These items often differ in price depending on the actual object, such as the case here where the picture label carts are priced higher.

 

You really can't read anything into the site being registered with a private proxy. That is quite common these days. Given how he is selling these online, it would be trivial to track him down if someone wanted to do so.

 

As for selling over a thousand of these carts, you're right, that is a larger operation than I envisioned. But even then, I still have a hard wondering why anyone would get their panties in a bind over something of this scale. And when I say scale, this is absolutely peanuts, even if several thousand are ultimately sold. Atari may well be within their right to go after these individuals for artwork they have not used in over 25 years (to my knowledge) and use of the word "Atari" in advertising these carts. But they'd surely spend more money on lawyers than they'd recover and generate ill will in the gaming community in the process. Even if you consider this operation "outside" the scope of our hobby, not everyone will see it that way.

 

..Al

[jaybird3rd]

Is there any sort of documentation available, either from the trademark/copyright owners or from third parties, which provides guidance (in layman's terms) on how to avoid issues of trademark or copyright infringement, written with a specific emphasis on video game properties? If it doesn't already exist, I think a resource like this would be very useful for those of us in the classic gaming hobby (homebrew developers and creators of other classic gaming related novelty items), especially since not all of us have the ability to conduct our own research or to consult with attorneys.

 

With homebrew game development becoming more popular, and with the surge of video game nostalgia having created a market for items like these wallets, it seems unavoidable that more and more of the people who create these kinds of products will cross the line into infringement, possibly without even realizing that they are doing anything illegal. I won't speculate whether the people selling the wallets are violating the law, or if they are, whether they are knowingly doing so. But the more information that people have at the beginning of these various projects about the legal issues involved, the better they will be able to direct their creative efforts in ways that avoid violating anyone's property rights.

[Cebus Capucinis]

As per avoidance of copyright infringement, there are quite a few resources out there. Here's a really good general catch-all guide to it from the University of Maine at Farmington: Is it Copyright? If you really want to get into crazy detail and like poring over legal proceedings (if so we should go get a beer sometime, it's a hobby of mine) then Stanford has a really great Copyright & Fair Use center: Stanford Go to the 'overview' and you get a really amazing FAQ about copyright definitions.

 

Specific to this instance, AKA the wallets in question, without seeing an actual licensing agreement between the original artist and Atari, you couldn't make a fair use argument one way or the other. Marty has the nail right on the head, however, that instances of personal gain in the methodology in question it's almost a safe bet to say that a copyright of some sort is being infringed upon. Homebrews and hacks are very different from what's going on in this case and generally fall under fair use clauses, as there is a form of rebranding involved and credit is given where credit is due.

 

If you really wanted to stretch out the definitions of copyright you could likely state that basically anyone that reuses an Atari cart shell for a homebrew is infringing upon copyright, in that they are utilizing a licensed product for personal gain. The boards inside and the programs are perfectly fine, but that .0002 cent hunk of plastic would still, in theory, be argued as copyright infringement. It's likely there's at least a trademark restriction on it related to a patent, so...

 

Basically when it comes to the legalese related to anything this hobby does, the first rule on the UMF website applies. We likely shouldn't be doing any of it -- almost everything that someone does that uses a piece of someone else's work is copyright infringement.

 

If you really wanted to make extra-super-duper sure you weren't violating anything, it only takes a couple minutes to either snail-mail or e-mail whoever you're worried about and simply ask them/their representative if it is acceptable for you to utilize their product/idea/what have you in the way you want. Of course this has to be in writing and likely has to be notarized before you can actually do anything, but you can always take a document to your local bank branch. They will have a notary public and if you have an account likely will not charge you for the service.

 

A lot of the time this isn't feasible and that's where Al's point comes in -- it is unreasonable for us to expect every single person to grab an attorney every time he/she makes something to make sure that they are not copying someone else's work. But on the other hand if they are copying someone else's work both knowingly and are making private profit from said work and making no reasonable effort to contact the copyright owner, then it is unreasonable to assume that it somehow is okay for it to happen.

 

Generally copyright works like that: if the person A) knows they're violating copyright and B) makes no provable or due dilligence effort to contact the copyright owner and obtain permission, that person is guilty of infringement and is therefore liable to lawsuit.

 

Sucks for the hobby if everyone were to get sued constantly, but that just isn't happening. Like I said, I'm not concerned with whether it should happen, I'm just saying that it's arguable that on some fundamental level everything is infringing to a point.

 

The too-long-didn't-read version: Copyright is incredibly complicated and 99% of everyone has no idea what it means. Each instance is completely different and only general rules apply.

 

Will Atari sue every single person that makes a homebrew using a cart or makes a wallet? No.

COULD Atari sue these individuals every single time? It's complicated, but the general opinion would be 'you betcha'.

 

Fortunately for us in the hobby that just isn't happening, so we still get cool homebrews, hacks, and all sorts of great stuff showing up. As stated, likely none of those would infringe upon much anything anyway, so you'd be in the clear. However, making a large assembly-line of re-utilized licensed Atari products, selling them by the thousands on multiple websites, and making no attempt whatsoever (this I can't be sure of, so don't take my word for it) to get permission to do so? That's definitely fishy.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Oh, and if I'm still around when I graduate from law school, I'll do pro bono work for AtariAge.com.

[+Random Terrain]

. . . pro bono . . .

Hey, she's pro bono too:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQIWWcQ080&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQIWWcQ080&rel=0&fmt=18&showinfo=0

[Albert]

Oh, and if I'm still around when I graduate from law school, I'll do pro bono work for AtariAge.com.

[shadow460]

I've re stuck labels quite a bit. Mainly it's after repairing a cart. I generally get good results, but they're not production quality. Usually there's a small fold near a corner or there's some additional wrinkles.

 

I've worked on industrial machines that apply labels, glue cases up, etc, and they are a royal pain in the rear. I frankly don't blame him for cutting the label around the screw. One look at a video of Imagic's assembly line showed carts being assembled by hand. Modern labeling equipment could well crush the shells used here.

 

Now if one was to make their own wallet from a cartridge, it would be a simple matter to remove the label with heat and re stick it by hand.

 

I'm getting some ideas for my next wallet, though. My current one is small, about the size of an Intellivision cartridge. For practical reasons, I don't want anything larger. I've carried cassettes in their boxes in my other front pocket, but I'm afraid older boxes would break. Besides, out of the few cassette based games, only Frogger would be commonly recognized. I can't see someone getting all nostalgic if I whip out a wallet with artwork from Killer Satellites.

 

It would, however, be entirely possible to pull the guts out of any common cartridge, remove or cut out the front piece where the edge connector is, and stuff money, credit cards, and ID down in there. I can't see why this wouldn't work for an Intellivision cart, either, and they're small. If that's too large, one could possibly use a cart for a portable system. If that's too small, I'm sure one could re purpose an AES cart and then ask Donald Trump to fill it up with money.

 

This might be a perfect idea for those ex Blockbuster N64 commons. They've already got that plastic protector over the label. Ink remover could pull the "Property of Blockbuster" writing from the top of that label and the rest of the clear label could be cut away. With the board removed, the plastic shield could be removed from the front of the cart and then the excess plastic could be removed to make way for one's cash.

[rpgfaker]

I'd be more impressed if it was a leather wallet with the cart's art.

[Shawn]

I've re stuck labels quite a bit. Mainly it's after repairing a cart. I generally get good results, but they're not production quality. Usually there's a small fold near a corner or there's some additional wrinkles.

 

Keep practicing cause it can be done with no error. I've hard carts that looked so gross when I got them the only way I could keep them was to totally take them apart to clean them and re-assemble after cleaning.

[spikey911]

To be honest, its a neat idea, but they don't look very good from the pictures, and they are way too pricey for me.

 

If I pay $55 + for a wallet, I at least want a label on it that looks new, and something to protect it from damage.

[aftermac]

To be honest, its a neat idea, but they don't look very good from the pictures, and they are way too pricey for me.

 

If I pay $55 + for a wallet, I at least want a label on it that looks new, and something to protect it from damage.

 

Seems like repeatedly sliding it in and out of your pocket would quickly damage the label.

[shadow460]

To be honest, its a neat idea, but they don't look very good from the pictures, and they are way too pricey for me.

 

If I pay $55 + for a wallet, I at least want a label on it that looks new, and something to protect it from damage.

 

Seems like repeatedly sliding it in and out of your pocket would quickly damage the label.

 

My thoughts exactly. If it could be laminated with some kind of plastic, though, it would be nearly bulletproof. I bet the text label carts hold up well, though.

 

Then, too, if you're the type who just carries cash without the wallet, this might be a decent choice since it would usually sit at home or in the car. A lot of times I leave my wallet in the truck while I'm at work. Even the small one I carry manages to get in the way.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Alright, here it is. I've done the necessary research and have applied it to our hobby in specific. Presenting CebusCapucinis' Guide to Copyright!

 

CebusCapucinis\' Guide to Copyright.doc

 

There's a couple little flowchart questionnaires in it that makes it rather easy to figure out whether your item is fair use or public domain and a sample letter asking for permission to use a copyrighted material. As I have said, I am not an attorney (yet) and this shouldn't be considered legitimate professional legal advice, but it can clear up some questions.

 

EDIT: Following my flowcharts made from Stanford's criteria, in this specific instance:

 

A) the wallet manufacturer KNOWS copyright is being violated, as the original Atari carts were made after 1978 and therefore are still tangible copyrighted materials including artwork

B) the wallet manufacturer has no significant evidence to prove that copyright is not being violated

1) Commercial gain is being had, so commercial gain applies

2) The repurposing is not significant enough to warrant the average user to not immediately think of Atari Corp.

3) 90% of the creation consists of already copyrighted material, as only the hinges are new materials -- this is criteria B under fair use

C) I can't prove this but it's incredibly likely to assume that the wallet manufacturer has done no due dilligence in contacting the company for permission, which wouldn't matter anyway because that isn't a legitimate defense, just a "settlement attempt"

 

I'd put good money on this being infringement.

[Retro Rogue]

Alright, here it is. I've done the necessary research and have applied it to our hobby in specific. Presenting CebusCapucinis' Guide to Copyright!

 

CebusCapucinis\' Guide to Copyright.doc

 

There's a couple little flowchart questionnaires in it that makes it rather easy to figure out whether your item is fair use or public domain and a sample letter asking for permission to use a copyrighted material. As I have said, I am not an attorney (yet) and this shouldn't be considered legitimate professional legal advice, but it can clear up some questions.

 

Thanks, you've done a great service to everyone and their future projects by putting that together. The one reason I bring stuff like this up is not that I'm against people doing projects, in fact it's the opposite - I'm in full support of homebrew games and projects. I just know that in order for it to continue to grow and be properly supported, all sides need to be happy. I.E. the "scene" is much more stable when done legit. Homebrew products like the games Al would sell through his store, or some of the mods and such you see sold for hardware, actually add value to a long running brand or IP, not take away.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Homebrew products like the games Al would sell through his store, or some of the mods and such you see sold for hardware, actually add value to a long running brand or IP, not take away.

 

There's no legal precedent for it, but there's a general feeling that Atari or any corporation would gladly agree to this, especially concerning modded consoles or homebrew games. From a corporate standpoint it actually increases their brand value to see that people are still using these items 30 years later. Honestly if someone DID make enough of something to warrant a copyright issue, I would generally think that the companies in question would rather work WITH someone than against, setting up a licensing deal and getting royalties rather than suing someone. Secondary products such as plush toys, wallets, and the like are a different story, but with homebrewing/hacking/modding consoles in general, I'm pretty sure most companies would be completely okay with it, and you'd get a positive response to a permission letter.

 

But as my little guide says, with a homebrew game (an original one or one significantly different enough to be able to pass the restructuring requirement) there's very minimal chance of it being infringement anyhow. The game is original content, the board is original content, the only issue would be with the Atari cartridge shells themselves, and even if Atari were to sue (which they wouldn't), 90% of the total product and 100% of the part of the product that "matters", aka the game, falls under the restructuring requirement and is significantly far enough separate from Atari's original works that it likely wouldn't hold up in a courtoom anyway.

[shadow460]

There have been several instances where members here have tried to contact copyright holders to no avail.

 

Honestly, I think I speak for more than myself when I say that we don't wanna hear this stuff over and over again. We're not the ones infringing on anyone's copyright, we're just talking about a product. Notice that after copyrights came up, many people, OP included, were gone from this thread faster than last week's paycheck. Why? Perhaps they are sick of hearing it, especially when they've done nothing wrong.

 

It's the same people that bring up copyright arguments every single time. Wanna talk copyright? I think it should be taken up with the dude who's doing the violations in private. The rest of us don't need your "help".

 

I usually don't speak up in this manner about copyrights, but enough is enough. This thread has gone from casual discussion to copyright arguments, then when it was brought back to casual discussion, the copyright stuff had to be dragged back into it.

[Cebus Capucinis]

When the product in question blatantly infringes upon clearly established copyrights, it's inevitable that the discussion will lead to copyrights. It is a serious topic that needs to be taken into consideration with our hobby. I agree with what Marty is saying. It sucks that we have to deal with it but at the end of the day it matters. It matters a LOT to this hobby because it really is the foundation upon which everything we have made as a community is based upon. If everything we have done has no legitimacy and the proverbial rug gets pulled out from under us, we have nowhere else to go. I think it's vital and imperative of a community of this nature to ensure that the copyright issue is getting handled appropriately. There are legal ramifications for everyone involved, especially if you post here supporting a product that is illegal or impinges upon those copyrights.

 

You may be sick of hearing about it, and I can understand that, but when it is the elephant in the room involving every single project a person undertakes, it's going to need to be discussed at one point or another.

 

Having said that and provided my guide for people to follow, I'm not going to continue arguing about it. I'm just trying to support the community by providing that basis of legitimacy.

[Albert]

When the product in question blatantly infringes upon clearly established copyrights, it's inevitable that the discussion will lead to copyrights. It is a serious topic that needs to be taken into consideration with our hobby. I agree with what Marty is saying. It sucks that we have to deal with it but at the end of the day it matters. It matters a LOT to this hobby because it really is the foundation upon which everything we have made as a community is based upon. If everything we have done has no legitimacy and the proverbial rug gets pulled out from under us, we have nowhere else to go. I think it's vital and imperative of a community of this nature to ensure that the copyright issue is getting handled appropriately. There are legal ramifications for everyone involved, especially if you post here supporting a product that is illegal or impinges upon those copyrights.

I can't see how there are legal ramifications for anyone posting here "supporting a product that is illegal". I don't think so. This is a more extreme case as it relates to old Atari 2600 properties and it certainly does not matter a lot to this hobby, even if Atari does want to and manages to shut this operation down. It would matter a lot to someone who wants to try and do the same (or very similar) thing in the future, but to the overall hobby it would not change very much, if anything at all. Nobody is going to make moves to try and stop the classic gaming homebrew scene and legally there is squat they could do about it.

 

..Al

[Cebus Capucinis]

Agreed. As my posted guide states and my other posts state, the homebrew and classic scene is in absolutely no danger whatsoever, which was the message I was trying to get across. I'm just of the persuasion that if you have a product you want to make, it is in the creator's best interest to consider the copyright issue before creating the product, sort of a better-safe-than-sorry mentality. And that's all she wrote as far as I'm concerned, I just wanted to provide people in the hobby with a clean-cut understanding of how copyright works and how to avoid it being a problem.

 

As per a PM shadow sent, I should clear up something. I'm not in this with a vested interest and I'm not trying to argue with anybody. I just really enjoy legal theory and one of my greatest other hobbies is discussing the technical aspects of the law in America. Copyright law being one of the most complicated beasts, it tends to be one of my favorite things to do "what if"s about. I apologize if anyone thinks I am being a brat or dragging a discussion down; I'm honestly just doing an "I enjoy this so don't know better" sort of thing.

[+Random Terrain]

Agreed. As my posted guide states and my other posts state, the homebrew and classic scene is in absolutely no danger whatsoever, which was the message I was trying to get across.

That might be true, but I do know that everyone who posted in this thread is going to prison.

[shadow460]

Agreed. As my posted guide states and my other posts state, the homebrew and classic scene is in absolutely no danger whatsoever, which was the message I was trying to get across.

That might be true, but I do know that everyone who posted in this thread is going to prison.

 

Nah, prison's too good. They need to give us all one of those wallets and set us free in Sunnyvale with a sandwich board that reads "Mug me! My wallet belongs to Atari".

 

[iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin]

These wallets are pretty and well made but way too expensive! $55 for a wallet with damaged labels is a bad joke!

 

A DAMN BAD JOKE!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I guess that I want one sooner or later.........

[zeitshabba]

These wallets are pretty and well made but way too expensive! $55 for a wallet with damaged labels is a bad joke!

A DAMN BAD JOKE!

...

But I guess that I want one sooner or later.........

Iwan, sorry for not responding to your PM months ago. About an hour after you suggested I sell you the Superman text label for $20, someone else bought it. I might just have done it, if you asked nicely.

 

I know I'm late to the party, but I'll try to keep this short and only address a few, um, "misunderstandings" regarding my wallet project. Before I do, big thanks to CebusCapucinis for the legal quickie doc - well done indeed!

 

I'm a one-man wallet-making machine. I have a "shop" setup at my friends house where we do the resales and, once upon a time, the wallet work as well. His schedule grew busier and our ability to coordinate wallet construction in a timely manner led me to doing all the work in our apartment. I have thousands of games - THOUSANDS - that are wallet-quality, but "wallet-quality" simply means "set aside to not be included in resales." I have approx. 700 shells yet to be milled out at the shop and have completed approximately 250 wallets to date. Roughly as many have been given away as have been sold, including a few wallet winners/gifts coming back to buy as gifts. The shop that mills out the games is managed by a good friend of mine and does my wallet shells between customer orders as I need them. Each wallet takes over 2 hours of work and $12 in parts & shop fees. Every piece is used except the screw and includes the game chip for the wallet title you purchase. The only additions to the original game case are polypropylene hinges, magnets and the plastic glue they require. I call them Atari cartridge wallets (cartridge added after initial release due to legal concern) because I cannot use any other manufacturer - not Activision, not Coleco, not Imagic -none of the 3rd party carts work. Only Atari game cartridges (and, obviously, Sears cartridges too) can become wallets.

 

Marty, I have to take a moment to address you directly, publicly, at this point, given your clear disgust with me/my wallets. I don't have "PR reps" - I was a project for a group of Emerson marketing students. You damn well knew they were students yet continued to misrepresent them here as "PR reps," grossly overstating the import of my operation. Your response to the students was, how should I say it... entertaining. We'll touch on that again in a bit.

 

While I will eventually sell other products on whatever site I setup market - for now, etsy - they won't be Atari-related whatsoever. The "additional products" you reference are the series of wristlets (8"x6" clutch handbags w/ bangle attached for easy wear) inspired by the game included as wallet created by my wife. Some folks see it as a cute collaboration between husband and wife or as a great gift for a geeky couple (as seen on Boston.com), but I bet reasonable folks - and even those pesky lawyers - would agree those are artistic one-offs.

 

Honestly Al, you're being naive enough to think that's the only place they're being sold?

Al's not naive. Al's right and you are wrong, Marty. The only place to buy one of my Atari cartridge wallets is via my etsy store. I donated a handful to a charity in Texas who auctioned them via eBay over the summer. Besides that one auction batch, you cannot buy one of my wallets anywhere EXCEPT via my etsy store. While I have had several inquiries from boutiques & game stores, I have kept them wholly in my control as of this writing.

 

If I take a cartridge and resell it, that's allowed.

And with my wallets, you get the entire cartridge. Go head, plug in the chip & play it! Then, if you don't mind, tell me how my selling of cartridges... err, wallets - is different than buying a game from Atari2600.com? They're selling Atari games! So am I - my just work slightly differently. If you claim my product doesn't qualify as a cartridge the same as the one you resold, please explain what the difference? No, seriously - define why the product I'm selling is so vastly different than the games resold at Atari2600.com simply because the screw was removed.

 

And from your email, I must ask...

The Atari legal department has been notified directly.

Did you reach out and touch someone inside Atari legal? Just for little old me? Seriously, thank you! The results of any lawsuit over my Atari cartridge wallets - and Sears cartridge wallets, too -

would only help me. I'd be able to get legal representation easily enough, between lawyers I know and artists advocacy groups that offer free legal services in instances like this, so I don't concern myself with this much. It would be a ridiculous PR boon for me - seriously, can't you see the story already? One man being attacked by a corporation for repurposing their 25-year-old games instead of letting them be dumped in landfills.... it's pure gold!

 

There's a reason their site is registered via a private proxy.

Yes, there is a reason my site is privately registered: people like you, Marty. You clearly see me as something much larger and more nefarious than I am, and do so with a passion that I find unsettling. To clarify, there is no "their" here - unless you count my multiple personalities as separate corporal entities

 

So much for keeping it short...

[Cebus Capucinis]

I do only have one question for you zeit and this is mostly out of my curiosity, as I have no intention of "turning you in to the fuzz": Did you contact Atari and ask for permission to use their artwork and cartridge shells? I don't want to start another argument at all, I'm just curious because it was the one part of this debate we would only be able to get from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[+Random Terrain]

I don't want to start another argument at all, I'm just curious because it was the one part of this debate we would only be able to get from the horse's mouth . . .

ZitShabby: "I am not an animal!"

 

CelibateCappuccino: "Why the long face?"

 

ZitShabby: "Leave me alone!"

 

CelibateCappuccino: "Of course, of course."