29 replies to this topic

[opcode]

Supposing we go ahead with the ColecoVision2 project in the future, controllers would be a problem, since there is no commercially available controller compatible with the CV today, and creating a new controller would be expensive at least. So does anyone have suggestions?
Does anyone know a ColecoVision compatible pad minus the keyboard? Is there any company still making two buttons joypads?

[youki]

I think Master System pad and mega drive pad could be compatible.

You should may be do like on the new edition of the megadrive.

You have 2 standard joystick port where you can plug original pad , and the console is also provided with 2 wireless controler.

http://www.greezbee....-reedition.html

[Pixelboy]

An image is worth a thousand words.

Doubledown's design is what I would prefer for the pack-in controller of the CV2. I know some may not like the idea of a D-pad instead of a joystick, but still, just by looking, you can tell the design is compact and comfortable on the hands. The only problem is finding a source for quality D-pads and keypads. The plastic casing shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I'm not sure if finding cables with 9-pin connectors would be a serious issue...

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by Pixelboy, Sat Jan 2, 2010 12:40 PM.

[opcode]

Personally I think the keypad was a bad idea. Perhaps that made sense back in 1982, because the Intellivision and all, but very few games used it, and now it is just a pain to create a new controller around it. Doubledown's controller looks interesting, but is it confortable? I really don't know what to do.
In the last instance we would ship the CV2 with no controller, and two CV controllers would be required to play the CV games. I suppose that would be fine with the CV core base, but how about new users?

[Cebus Capucinis]

I really like doubledown's controller design and would love to see it in a CV2. My wallet is already itchin' to give you some money opcode!

[Ransom]

If we assume that the keypad is getting the axe, then to me it would make sense to go with any of the well-known, widely-available standards from the past. The NES controllers had two buttons, plus the very useful Start and Select buttons, and you could choose from a joypad or an arcade-style joystick. The Genesis controller would be another good choice -- they have at least three buttons, and pads and sticks are easily available. Plus, the connector is bog standard, unlike the NES one.

[Pixelboy]

opcode, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:09 PM, said:

Personally I think the keypad was a bad idea. Perhaps that made sense back in 1982, because the Intellivision and all, but very few games used it, and now it is just a pain to create a new controller around it. Doubledown's controller looks interesting, but is it confortable? I really don't know what to do.
In the last instance we would ship the CV2 with no controller, and two CV controllers would be required to play the CV games. I suppose that would be fine with the CV core base, but how about new users?

I think shipping the CV2 without controllers would be a good idea, because most of the people who will be buying the CV2 already own a ColecoVision console, so they already have controllers they can use with the CV2, or perhaps some Atari or other third-party controllers with D-9 connectors.

Also, I think a different team should tackle the joystick problem, and work on it in parallel to the main CV2 project. It wouldn't be absolutely necessary for the main console and the controller to be released together, on the same date.

[opcode]

Andre Lamothe seems to have a source in China for NES controllers that use DB9 ports and come with lots of buttons + select/start. They look cheap, but al least they are cheap.

NES controller

So an option would be to redefine controllers with the CV2. So if you want to play legacy games then you would need to find some original CV controllers, but for CV2 games you would use the new controllers.

Eduardo

Ransom, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:45 PM, said:

If we assume that the keypad is getting the axe, then to me it would make sense to go with any of the well-known, widely-available standards from the past. The NES controllers had two buttons, plus the very useful Start and Select buttons, and you could choose from a joypad or an arcade-style joystick. The Genesis controller would be another good choice -- they have at least three buttons, and pads and sticks are easily available. Plus, the connector is bog standard, unlike the NES one.

Edited by opcode, Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:56 PM.

[opcode]

The problem with shipping a new console with no controllers would be that would limit the console appeal to existing users. I don't want to sound greed, but we need to understand that the more the console sells, the less expensive it would be. Andre thinks this new console would have some appeal to hobbyists outside the CV scene, and if we can sell 100 machines for those people, the better. But for that we need to ship with some kind of joystick, because the non-CV fan probably wouldn’t want the trouble to go out look for some old controllers.

Pixelboy, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:52 PM, said:

opcode, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 1:09 PM, said:

Personally I think the keypad was a bad idea. Perhaps that made sense back in 1982, because the Intellivision and all, but very few games used it, and now it is just a pain to create a new controller around it. Doubledown's controller looks interesting, but is it confortable? I really don't know what to do.
In the last instance we would ship the CV2 with no controller, and two CV controllers would be required to play the CV games. I suppose that would be fine with the CV core base, but how about new users?

I think shipping the CV2 without controllers would be a good idea, because most of the people who will be buying the CV2 already own a ColecoVision console, so they already have controllers they can use with the CV2, or perhaps some Atari or other third-party controllers with D-9 connectors.

Also, I think a different team should tackle the joystick problem, and work on it in parallel to the main CV2 project. It wouldn't be absolutely necessary for the main console and the controller to be released together, on the same date.

[Ransom]

That would be a really good idea sticking with the DB9 connector, so the user could choose the controller. I guess two of the buttons on the new controller would have to send the same signal as the two buttons on the old one for simplicity. Perhaps start and select could be mapped the same as keypad 1 and 2 so that an old controller would be upward compatible? Then additional buttons could be mapped the same as other buttons on the old controller. That would be ideal, I think, if it doesn't add much to the cost.

Edited by Ransom, Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:08 PM.

[Pixelboy]

Ransom, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:07 PM, said:

That would be a really good idea sticking with the DB9 connector, so the user could choose the controller. I guess two of the buttons on the new controller would have to send the same signal as the two buttons on the old one for simplicity. Perhaps start and select could be mapped the same as keypad 1 and 2 so that an old controller would be upward compatible? Then additional buttons could be mapped the same as other buttons on the old controller. That would be ideal, I think, if it doesn't add much to the cost.

Mapping buttons to keypad keys could be done manually from the new BIOS in the CV2, via a simple boot interface.

Does André's chinese DB9 joystick have shoulder buttons? It's hard to tell on the picture... But anyway, I could definately go with that chinese controller.

Edited by Pixelboy, Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:26 PM.

[Ransom]

Pixelboy, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:12 PM, said:

Mapping buttons to keypad keys could be done manually from the new BIOS in the CV2, via a simple boot interface.

Does André's chinese DB9 joystick have shoulder buttons? It's hard to tell on the picture... But anyway, I could definately go with that chinese controller.

Sounds like a great option to me!

[Cebus Capucinis]

As a very, very likely consumer of this product I have to say that I would want controllers with mine. No controllers wouldn't be a dealbreaker but controllers are a very big plus to me.

[opcode]

On an unrelated note, we are studying the possibility of using the V9990 with the CV2. The V9990 was the final VDP in the V99XX line of VDPs by Yamaha/ASCII. The V9990 was created for the MSX3 (it was originally called V9978), but the MSX3 got aborted (then they renamed it to V9990 and released as a MSX/PC solution). Aside a couple of hundred expansion boards made for the MSX, the CV2 would be the first console to widely use this very powerful chip... But that will depend on the cost of course.

[Pixelboy]

opcode, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:36 PM, said:

On an unrelated note, we are studying the possibility of using the V9990 with the CV2. The V9990 was the final VDP in the V99XX line of VDPs by Yamaha/ASCII. The V9990 was created for the MSX3 (it was originally called V9978), but the MSX3 got aborted (then they renamed it to V9990 and released as a MSX/PC solution). Aside a couple of hundred expansion boards made for the MSX, the CV2 would be the first console to widely use this very powerful chip... But that will depend on the cost of course.

Didn't you tell me before that the V9990 is not backward-compatible with the CV's original graphic chip? If yes, then that means the CV2 wouldn't be able to play legacy CV carts... Tsk-Tsk!

[opcode]

Pixelboy, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 3:50 PM, said:

opcode, on Sat Jan 2, 2010 2:36 PM, said:

On an unrelated note, we are studying the possibility of using the V9990 with the CV2. The V9990 was the final VDP in the V99XX line of VDPs by Yamaha/ASCII. The V9990 was created for the MSX3 (it was originally called V9978), but the MSX3 got aborted (then they renamed it to V9990 and released as a MSX/PC solution). Aside a couple of hundred expansion boards made for the MSX, the CV2 would be the first console to widely use this very powerful chip... But that will depend on the cost of course.

Didn't you tell me before that the V9990 is not backward-compatible with the CV's original graphic chip? If yes, then that means the CV2 wouldn't be able to play legacy CV carts... Tsk-Tsk!

If used in the intended configuration (with the V7040 encoder) the V9990 is compatible...

[RangerG]

7800 pads would be a good fit - they work on the CV (both buttons) and they are a pretty good controller.

[ten-four]

Hi Eduardo

I've also thought about the new controllers.

If you need an overlay, it is only possible with compatible joysticks.

I think Eduardo and Andre should stick to it to be DB-9, without changing it in CV2, and only modify the signals in the joysticks.

I think Eduardo and Andre should go for the joypad from the link above, and leave it up to a third party to make the joysticks which they believe may be appropriate.

But I definitely think that you should have the possibility that one can use the old joysticks should be open.

[kool kitty89]

Does anyone here have the pinout information for the CV controllers/controller ports? (U/D/L/R and button 1 match VCS and thush SMS and MD, but the other button is the contenton point, with SMS using pin 9) If both buttons match, SMS/MD controllers should be fine for any games not using the keypad.

The Jaguar pad was my first though for a reemagined CV controller though, and what do you know:
http://www.atariage....controller-mod/

[Loafer]

Good stuff that this is being considered at this stage. IMHO, I do believe this is going in the right direction: existing CV games? Use the original controller, CV2 games? Use the controller that comes with the machine. Although I like the original design due to the number pad (how could anyone play the wonderful Gateway to Apshai with only 2 buttons?), there's no doubt for most videogames after the NES have made good use between 3 to 4 buttons for gameplay (along with a select/start button too). I guess the question to consider is: if you're building a new joystick, is it really cost prohibitive to limit the controller to 2 buttons? If not, if it's pennies per controller, I think it's doing a service to the developers in providing them with choice for how their game will control. IE: a 2 button controlled game works great on a 4 button controller, a 4 button controlled game doesn't work so good on a 2 button controller.

[lucifershalo]

Following the discussion in the CV2 topic
one of the purpose is to keep it in the spirit of the first Colecovision
and have that american feeling for the games
then the controller should be with...a joystick
for me, joystick mean "american"
pad, "japanese"

but maybe I am in the minority

[Ransom]

I agree, a joystick would be better and more in keeping with the original system and the time period of that original system. But it would be much more expensive to produce, I imagine.

As long as the connectors are compatible with the original controllers, I'm fine with it. I can use the old stuff, or the new CV/7800-compatible sticks folks around here make and offer for sale from time to time.

[opcode]

Ransom, on Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:56 PM, said:

I agree, a joystick would be better and more in keeping with the original system and the time period of that original system. But it would be much more expensive to produce, I imagine.

As long as the connectors are compatible with the original controllers, I'm fine with it. I can use the old stuff, or the new CV/7800-compatible sticks folks around here make and offer for sale from time to time.

You know, that would be interesting. The 7800 joysticks are large enough to house a small keypad, so perhaps we could use the same case, or a similar case, I don't know. It's interesting that Andre' sells 7800 joysticks in his website. I need to ask him where he got those in quantities.

[ApolloBoy]

I would much prefer a D-pad as opposed to a joystick for the CV2. The 7800 joystick is just as uncomfortable as the CV controller, and I think it would be nice to have a controller similar to that used for the Famicom Network System (which is basically an NES controller with a keypad in the middle).

[Ransom]

opcode, on Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:29 PM, said:

You know, that would be interesting. The 7800 joysticks are large enough to house a small keypad, so perhaps we could use the same case, or a similar case, I don't know. It's interesting that Andre' sells 7800 joysticks in his website. I need to ask him where he got those in quantities.

I was actually talking about the converted NES Advantage sticks Ax is working on, and the other large, sit-in-your-lap sticks someone else is selling here (sorry, I've forgotten who). I'm not a fan of the 7800 controllers Atari made (whether the joysticks or joypads). I actually get along better with the original CV controllers than I do with them!

Sorry for the confusion.