20 replies to this topic

[Underball]

I already know that the NES/Atari/SMS light guns don't work with newer LCD HDTVs, but I'm wondering if Sega's Master System 3D Glasses still work?

Anyone ever tried this?

Sadly, my trusty 27" RCA CRT for classic console gaming died this weekend, and it needs to be replaced - but you really can't buy a new CRT anywhere, and I don't want to get a crappy, used 2nd hand TV.

I'm not pissed about the light gun games, since I never really played them anyway.

[GrizzLee]

Underball, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:37 AM, said:

I already know that the NES/Atari/SMS light guns don't work with newer LCD HDTVs, but I'm wondering if Sega's Master System 3D Glasses still work?

Anyone ever tried this?

Sadly, my trusty 27" RCA CRT for classic console gaming died this weekend, and it needs to be replaced - but you really can't buy a new CRT anywhere, and I don't want to get a crappy, used 2nd hand TV.

I'm not pissed about the light gun games, since I never really played them anyway.

Sadly, they do not.

I suggest that you check Craigslist for a good CRT tube TV for classic gaming. I personally have about 6 JVC iArts/Toshiba 14" TVs in my gameloft for all my machines. They have a great picture, include component, s-video, composite and RF inputs. I paid no more than $20 a piece for these. They are easily had right now if you are patient.

If you were in the Seattle area, I'd make you a deal on a Commodore 1702 monitor :-)

-Lee

[Underball]

Thanks for the Offer, but Boston's a long way away from Seattle.

That sucks. I was hoping this was different than the problem with the light gun.

[Keatah]

Underball, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:37 AM, said:

I already know that the NES/Atari/SMS light guns don't work with newer LCD HDTVs, but I'm wondering if Sega's Master System 3D Glasses still work?

Anyone ever tried this?

Sadly, my trusty 27" RCA CRT for classic console gaming died this weekend, and it needs to be replaced - but you really can't buy a new CRT anywhere, and I don't want to get a crappy, used 2nd hand TV.

I'm not pissed about the light gun games, since I never really played them anyway.

3d should be no problem
let us know how it works for ya'

[Underball]

Ok, so which one is right?

Do they work, or don't they?

[GrizzLee]

Underball, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:46 AM, said:

Ok, so which one is right?

Do they work, or don't they?

They don't in my experience. It has to do with the sync rate (Refresh rate... whatever). At least I've never seen them work on LCD monitors. The glasses are frequency timed to shut one eye on/off with a timed image on the screen. The other eye shutter is out of sync with the other eye, so while one eye is blocked, the other eye sees a shifted image and vice versa, giving the simulated 3D effect. I beleieve that they were timed with a CRT refresh rate of 60 Hz. I believe LCD monitors have higher refresh rates and don't sync with the glasses.

Maybe someone can chime in with a more technical explanation.

-Lee

[Underball]

Lee Krueger, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:39 AM, said:

Underball, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:46 AM, said:

Ok, so which one is right?

Do they work, or don't they?

They don't in my experience. It has to do with the sync rate (Refresh rate... whatever). At least I've never seen them work on LCD monitors. The glasses are frequency timed to shut one eye on/off with a timed image on the screen. The other eye shutter is out of sync with the other eye, so while one eye is blocked, the other eye sees a shifted image and vice versa, giving the simulated 3D effect. I beleieve that they were timed with a CRT refresh rate of 60 Hz. I believe LCD monitors have higher refresh rates and don't sync with the glasses.

Maybe someone can chime in with a more technical explanation.

-Lee

I know how they work, but I was under the assumption that all LCD TV's (not Monitors) had a default sync rate of 60Hz? I know some of the newer ones have 120Hz rates, but that can be disabled, and most have "Game Mode" which is supposed to be a non-processed 480i 60Hz signal, isn't it?

[Tursi]

Probably both answers are correct. Some modern devices deinterlace the video by merging both frames onscreen, that would prevent the glasses from working. Not just LCDs, but projectors and other displays, too. Even though the original signal was generally not generated as interlaced, it's treated as such by modern hardware.

The light gun problem is caused by the lack of a scan beam to detect (except for the NES, where it is probably caused by the same deinterlacing issue).

[Seob]

Most pc lcd have are 60hz indeed.

[SoulBlazer]

When I was TV shopping last month I saw that several stores such as K-Mart and Target DID still have some brand new CRT's out. Size varied from 19 to 27 inches.

This was in Providence, so Boston should be similar with the stores.

[mbd30]

Fred's stores usually have new tube TVs in stock.

But you're better off going second hand. People everywhere are disposing of their tube TVs that work perfectly fine in order to get a flat screen.

Edited by mbd30, Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:55 PM.

[christianscott27]

Theres a thriftstore in Boston I go to fairly often, Boomerangs in Jamaica Plain, that always has a couple big ol CRTs going for cheap.

[Underball]

So I did some testing. The SMS 3D Glasses DO work well on my 65" Mitsubishi DLP HDTV, once I turn off all the picture processing/image enhancement and correction options.

It looks fantastic actually. So I'm encouraged that the 32" Sony LCD I'm looking at will be fine too.

[figgler]

Lee Krueger, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:51 AM, said:

I personally have about 6 JVC iArts/Toshiba 14" TVs in my gameloft for all my machines. They have a great picture, include component, s-video, composite and RF inputs. I paid no more than $20 a piece for these. They are easily had right now if you are patient.

I second this. I have a 27" iART and a craiglist seller is dropping off a 21 incher on Sunday. Always on the hunt for iARTs since they are great gaming TVs and right now no one wants them

[Herbarius]

Quote

I know how they work, but I was under the assumption that all LCD TV's (not Monitors) had a default sync rate of 60Hz?

While that is correct, the refresh rates on CRTs and LCDs are not comparable... CRTs (at 60Hz) actually build a new picture 60 times a second, while the 60 Hz for LCDs is only relevant internally, as far as I know...

[Underball]

Herbarius, on Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:27 AM, said:

Quote

I know how they work, but I was under the assumption that all LCD TV's (not Monitors) had a default sync rate of 60Hz?

While that is correct, the refresh rates on CRTs and LCDs are not comparable... CRTs (at 60Hz) actually build a new picture 60 times a second, while the 60 Hz for LCDs is only relevant internally, as far as I know...

Well, it works on my DLP, which has more in common with LCD tv's than with CRT's.

[Retro Rogue]

It's not about the rate, but how the screen is filled. CRT refresh rates are based on scanlines and the rate it takes to do enough of them to make a single frame before refreshing to do the next ones. LCD's refresh the entire frame/screen at once.

That's why light guns that are glorified light pens (i.e. use the scanline method of tracking) won't work. Light guns that use block replacement detection will work with LCDs - the issue is with the software of the games themselves which is usually synced to detect the single frame of block replacement with the refresh rate of a CRT. I.E. if the game code could be hacked accordingly, the technology itself would work. In fact I know several experiments that have already been done with detecting block replacement from an LCD.

That's also why you're seeing the 3D glasses work when you're turning off all the extra image enhancement material, or not work with the interlacing. The way the frame is generated between CRT and LCD is a difference that has to be accounted for. That doesn't mean the basis of the technology is no longer valid, it simply that older versions of the technology may not account for these changes.

Edited by wgungfu, Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:15 PM.

[roland p]

Is there a chance the SMS 3d glasses will always cancel out the image coming from an LCD source?

In liquid crystal displays (LCDs), use is made of linear polarisers, familiar to most as the glass in polarising sunglasses. If you “cross” two polarisers (i.e. arrange them at 90 degrees to each other) then light does not pass through. This is the basis of the LCD, but between the cross polars the liquid crystals are arranged with a “twist”. This twist allows light to pass through. However, when an electric field is passed through the liquid crystals, the twist is removed, and so light cannot pass through – the area appears black.


Since an LCD TV has a polariser and the SMS glasses have polarizers, there is a chance no light will pass through. Like trying to look through two polariod sun glasses

[Video]

The lightguns and glasses "work" (in the sense that they do what they are supposed to) the problem is, the TV's are out of sync when they have to handle analog to digital conversions. The result is the same in both cases, the screen is refreshed out of sync and wont work right....I've heard people talk about it counting some bumps in the scanline or some BS, but those people are confusing "light gun" (detecting light) with "light pen" which actually do track raytraces or something more (but don't work at any distance other than right on the screen)

You can try them, if the syncing time is spot on, like it's exactly two framse behind or something, it could potentially still work for you. However, if it's off, you could also end up with a chopped up image, or even a inverted 3D image. To much room for failure either way.

[GrizzLee]

figgler, on Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:44 AM, said:

Lee Krueger, on Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:51 AM, said:

I personally have about 6 JVC iArts/Toshiba 14" TVs in my gameloft for all my machines. They have a great picture, include component, s-video, composite and RF inputs. I paid no more than $20 a piece for these. They are easily had right now if you are patient.

I second this. I have a 27" iART and a craiglist seller is dropping off a 21 incher on Sunday. Always on the hunt for iARTs since they are great gaming TVs and right now no one wants them

Cheap and great picture.

My son plays his XBOX 360 and Wii on a 32" Toshiba FST TV that we got off of Craigslist for FREE!!!!! It has a fantastic picture. Not HDTV, but it looks great for a tube TV. Frees up the family HDTV for the wife.

-Lee

[guy767]

Sorry to play necromancer and revive a long dead thread but I recently acquired a pair of Sega 3D glasses as well. I ran a Google search for "Sega 3D glasses LCD" which lead me to this thread.

I can confirm that they don't work on LCD HDTV’s but work great on CRT TVs. I'm pretty impressed with them; I'm amazed that such old technology could produce such superb 3D effects.

Seems like Sega was way ahead for their time. Although I think Nintendo released a powered pair of 3D glasses for the Famicom in Japan as well. Who copied who first though lol?