41 replies to this topic

[atari2600land]

Was just wondering where the Lynx protos of these games went to. There must have been some final versions of Cabal and 720 degrees if screenshots were taken for a catalog. I'm also wondering why they weren't released. Did Atari figure new games for the Lynx weren't needed in 1992 or what? And then, Atari decided to release 2 games in 1995. I'm still scratching my head over that one. Tried Atariprotos.com but there is no Lynx section.

[Supergun]

atari2600land, on Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:29 PM, said:

Was just wondering where the Lynx protos of these games went to. There must have been some final versions of Cabal and 720 degrees if screenshots were taken for a catalog. I'm also wondering why they weren't released. Did Atari figure new games for the Lynx weren't needed in 1992 or what? And then, Atari decided to release 2 games in 1995. I'm still scratching my head over that one. Tried Atariprotos.com but there is no Lynx section.

I have several screenshots, write ups, and short previews for the following Atari Lynx protos.
Vindicators, 720, Grid Runner, Rolling Thunder, Cabal, Geo Duel, Storm over Doria,
and maybe some others. need to check all my materials in storage.

Would be happy to scan and contribute all of it to a section on my website or Tempest's website
if he would be willing to give it a home there.

And does anyone here know what games may have been at these positions:
PA2074, PA2082, and PT5002, PT5009 (I am fairly certain that Desert Strike is one of these last two)

Regards.

[The_Laird]

I myself wrote a complete guide to Lynx protos and unreleased games over at Jaguar Sector 2 including screenshots and other information about each game upon writing and compiling the list I was utterly stunned at how many unreleased Lynx games there were. There are even a few early Epyx titles that went unreleased for whatever reason.

[Supergun]

The_Laird, on Tue Mar 2, 2010 6:03 PM, said:

I myself wrote a complete guide to Lynx protos and unreleased games over at Jaguar Sector 2 including screenshots and other information about each game upon writing and compiling the list I was utterly stunned at how many unreleased Lynx games there were. There are even a few early Epyx titles that went unreleased for whatever reason.

well, this sounds really awesome, and it is much appreciated and I would love to see & read this guide that I am certain you put lots of work into! here comes the but... the problem is the "jaguar sector 2" website. it seems that you cannot "browse" the site in any way, shape, or form? you have to join the site before you can even determine if you want to join the site? what's up with that? that just rubs me the wrong way.

anyhow, my point is i would love to check this out (and i am sure many others would like to as well) so is there any chance you could find a more friendly home for all your hard work? or in simpler words, any other way we can see your guide? the unreleased early epyx titles fascinate me the most.

thanks either way.

[The_Laird]

I would love to post it elsewhere but there are a few problems with doing it:

1. I wrote the guide as an exclusive for JS2, although at the time it was not a private forum.
2. It uses links to seperate topics for each game so would take a long time to re-compile.
3. As much as it is my work I would never re-post the information without Jason Smith's consent (the admin of JS2)

I consider myself the expert on Lynx protos after the research I did into this guide and would be more than happy to anser any questions and if you like I could post the entire list of games and then you could ask questions accordingly.

[EricDeLee]

The_Laird, on Tue Mar 9, 2010 4:29 PM, said:

I would love to post it elsewhere but there are a few problems with doing it:

1. I wrote the guide as an exclusive for JS2, although at the time it was not a private forum.
2. It uses links to seperate topics for each game so would take a long time to re-compile.
3. As much as it is my work I would never re-post the information without Jason Smith's consent (the admin of JS2)

I consider myself the expert on Lynx protos after the research I did into this guide and would be more than happy to anser any questions and if you like I could post the entire list of games and then you could ask questions accordingly.

Hmmm... I read through quite a bit of it. Saved most of it for reference as i do with most Lynx stuff concerning protos.
I'm not an expert, but to me there was a lot of fluff in the items. And... there was bits and parts taken from other places and added to your description of the protos. If I recall there was a lot of Chris-info as well. Chris is a very knowledgeable guy on some parts, but for other things he tends to skew things one way or the other.

Either way... at one time the forum was public. So if I simply copy and paste my 'recap' that I took from there, there should not be any issues whatsoever. That's my opinion.

Note... I like both sites, but to be honest this site contains the most information. It has its faults, but it is still the main source for information. For instance, if news is 'broke' here... it then is transferred to that site by someone here that visits both sites. And it is usually a direct copy and paste. I've actually seen YOU do that on a few occasions.

For the most part... if you need info... it is all available here (a lot of what is posted in the 'protos' section came from the archives of AtariAge).\

Hope I'm not bursting bubbles, but please don't say I won't copy and paste something from over there to here without permission when the majority of your research came from here via copy and paste.

[The_Laird]

Who is Chris

All the information there was written by me and the only place I borrowed anything from was Moby Games, mainly screenshots.

[EricDeLee]

Chrislynxx here... psp5990 or something like that over there.
You know the guy... the one that types paragraphs without any punctuation and breaks.

Doesn't really matter... it isn't a really big point.
copy and paste is free in this world though... so don't be surprised if the info shows up here.
(In reality, perhaps you'd like to post it and have it stickied at the top of the Lynx page. It would provide information for others in a more organized manner...)

[The_Laird]

Oh him!

Well I can tell you that I have never ever copied anything he wrote and never would either, so any similarities must mean that he copied my work not the other way round.

[Chickybaby]

I would appreciate if there was not even the vaguest consideration of anyone copying any work. Much time, consideration, dedication, and hard work was put into the information out there by upstanding individual.
Please, lets not compare what site is the best been enough of that historically and can we be thankful that it's available in various places to learn from and enjoy.
This will be my only comment/warning in regards to that particular train of descussion. Thank you.

[EricDeLee]

i have a problem with that. i know you are a moderator...but are basically saying i can't post something that is considered public domain. if he was at a site where we were paying for content...then i see your point. however it is not a site you pay for and was submitted on the internet for public veiwing. your logic in this is that we can't post infomation from another internet source...yet we do it all of the time (ebay, cnn, tmz,digitpress...)
if i post his prototype write-ups...it is my right to do so. if i give him the credit he deserves...then what does it matter?

in this aspect i have every right to post this information. and probablly will. if blocked you are opening a can of worms and will need to comb through a lot on atariage to remove any posts that violate what you said. if you'd like to pm me...please do so. as of right now this just does not make sense to me as you are limiting what i can or can not pist.

[Albert]

EricDeLee, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:24 AM, said:

in this aspect i have every right to post this information. and probablly will. if blocked you are opening a can of worms and will need to comb through a lot on atariage to remove any posts that violate what you said. if you'd like to pm me...please do so. as of right now this just does not make sense to me as you are limiting what i can or can not pist.

Sorry, you are flat out wrong. Just because something is posted on a "public" site does not make it "public domain". The original author of that material (in this case The_Laird) retains copyright on said material and that author gets to control who can distribute it. Just because people DO copy material from other sites without permission does not mean that legally they are in the right.

If you post that material here without The_Laird's blessing, I personally will remove it. Don't do it.

..Al

[The_Laird]

Thankyou Al and Chicky.

I would certainly not welcome anyone copying and pasting my work without my permission. The Lynx Proto guide I wrote took many hours to compile and I was rewarded for it with a JS2 Lifetime VIP status which others had to pay for.

I have already said I would be happy to answer any questions on what I know and I think that is more than generous of me.

[EricDeLee]

al..chicky... this is hogwash.
if you are forbiding me to post something i got off of a free website you are squashing my rights. i don't argue many points...however when it is something important...i will put my foot down.

if this is your ruling...you should remove the ability to quote someone's post in a thread. you should ban all quotes that are copied from ebay to the auctions forums...not to mention direct copy and paste jobs of others posting bits of emails from bad sellers on ebay.
if this is your ruling you need to have everyone start posting refrences for each thing they pull off of the internet. otherwise anyone can cklaim that it was thier original work.
the lynx faq is a copy and paste special. their are source codes for games actually released on atariage...yet we are arguing about posting someones work here on atariage when the rules are broken for every other subject matter on atariage? it was posted in the public...i have the right to reproduce it. it is only compiled information from all other internet sites...so what does it really matter? yet this same guy can do direct...and i do mean direct copy and paste jobs over ther...straight from our forums? i will post what i deem as public domain

[Albert]

EricDeLee, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:46 PM, said:

al..chicky... this is hogwash.
if you are forbiding me to post something i got off of a free website you are squashing my rights. i don't argue many points...however when it is something important...i will put my foot down.

Go ahead and put your foot down all you want, you are flat out wrong. Your "rights" are not being squashed because you don't have the "rights" to repost content you find on other sites unless that permission is explicitly given. Go educate yourself on copyrights before you try to further argue yourself into a hole.

Quote

it was posted in the public...i have the right to reproduce it.

As it applies to this document The_Laird has created, you are wrong. This is one of the most ludicrous statements someone's posted on AtariAge.

Quote

i will post what i deem as public domain

If you post something the author explicitly asked you not to and after I asked you not to, I'll delete it and it'll be the last thing you post on AtariAge.

..Al

[Chickybaby]

It is his work and currently JS2 is private. He has asked not to use it and that's his right as the author of the work which he was compensated for just as he also said he would answer people's questions. I don't think there would be a problem if the author of the work had no issues and it's not something as simple as a quote on here because it's the same site. So why don't use use what's avaialable elsewhere since in this case the author does mind?
Would be my best suggestion so everyone is happy and there is peace. Thank you.

[EricDeLee]

stepping away from this topic for a bit to cool down. i will return later to talk about this. my whole problem is...if i can't post public information...why am i even a member of this site? others can say what they want...they can bait...yet i want to put public info out there and get told 'no'

something is amiss here and it is not right.

[Chickybaby]

The information isn't on this site, it's on a currently closed non-public one and the author who was compensated for the work has expressly asked not to use it. This is in regards to one case not a blanket amount of quotes across everything.
Thank you.

[Cebus Capucinis]

There is a very big, VERY fundamental difference between posting a link to information and actually copying information. When one posts a link to information you are simply placing a pointer to the original content itself, and therefore no "copy" is necessarily being made, unless you count an IP-specific copy in your browser's internet history.

Separately copy-and-pasting the information is actually disrespecting the copyright boundaries of the original creator in this sense, because you are essentially implied to be crediting yourself with the creation of the work. The average user that looks at a post in that sense connects your posted username with the information, not the person who actually wrote it -- it is finicky. If you posted it with the original author/creator's name clearly stated you get a bit more in the clear but even still, if the options are to post a direct link to the original work or copy-and-paste, you are always better off posting that direct link.

That should be the rule of thumb to remember on sites like this. "When in doubt, post the direct link!" -- it's just good practice to ensure that the proper person gets credited with the creation of a certain piece of information. Now they might get upset about the large bandwidth increase, but more viewers is never a bad thing...

Something like this is pretty strange, but I would say that as long as the original author/creator doesn't want it posted it shouldn't be posted. If The_Laird wants to post it here of his own accord, so be it though

Quoting partial snippets and relevant information with something while giving credit is fine, but posting a complete work in a separate location is technically infringing on that person's original work and therefore Laird has the right to ask that it be taken down. Generally if you give credit and make sure the person that originally wrote it gets all the credit you are more likely to get permission, and sometimes you can press that and hope they don't care, but in the end of it if they do not want it up they have every right to ask that you take it down.

This is the same for direct quotes of just about anything on this website! I could ask that every person that has ever quoted me take down everything I have ever written but fortunately we are all reasonable gentlemen and ladies here and won't do something like that

EDIT: Wait, now that I read it...I was thinking of partial quoting under plagiarism guidelines. If it is the complete work it is copyright and not plagiarism and it is wrong.

[Albert]

EricDeLee, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:57 PM, said:

stepping away from this topic for a bit to cool down. i will return later to talk about this. my whole problem is...if i can't post public information...why am i even a member of this site? others can say what they want...they can bait...yet i want to put public info out there and get told 'no'

something is amiss here and it is not right.

I have not seen what The_Laird has written up, but assuming he typed up his own thoughts regarding these Lynx prototypes, he owns the copyright to that document. Just because it was posted on a public site and you were able to download it for free, does not mean it's in the "public domain" and that you can start posting it everywhere without his consent.

You're right in that lots of other "copyrighted" material gets posted on AtariAge (and sites all over the net) without permission, but the big differences in THIS particular case is the author has asked you NOT to post it. Yet you are barging in here as if it's your god-given right to copy his work as you see fit, without his permission, and brazenly claiming that YOUR rights are being trampled on. This is where you are wrong.

This isn't up for debate. I suggest reading this.

..Al

[EricDeLee]

look... i am backing away from this...and i will do what i determine to be legally right .
i personally think for a site to be up in arms over this matter...when they aren't even policing thierselves is rather silly.
i'll read the link you posted Al...but i do want to say that as long as you do not police evry poster on this site...you are banning me from doing the same thing they are doing. any news story...any copy and paste about someones ebay auction where they actually use the sellers description is in violation of what you are telling me not to do.

there is nothing wrong with me editing something that was gathered publically (mostly from here) and putting it in my blog or in the forums.

if it is wrong...so are the roms distributed here...the source codes...the manuals...the box scans...

at this point i'm pretty flabbergasted by the 'I'll kick you off of my site' quote above. that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth...all i am asking is if you police me...you opened the can of worms and you need to catch everyone of those worms. otherwise you are not being fair.

[Albert]

EricDeLee, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:41 PM, said:

there is nothing wrong with me editing something that was gathered publically (mostly from here) and putting it in my blog or in the forums.

It depends on how you are "editing" it. If The_Laird wrote up reviews of these games and you are simply copying them, then you are infringing upon his copyright. If you are reading his reviews and then putting them in your own words, that's another thing entirely. Perhaps you can be clearer on what you are doing.

Quote

if it is wrong...so are the roms distributed here...the source codes...the manuals...the box scans...

You're right, and if the original copyright owner asks me to remove such items, I remove them. The big difference, again, is that you are flaunting The_Laird's rights if you post his document even when he's asked you not to do so.

Quote

at this point i'm pretty flabbergasted by the 'I'll kick you off of my site' quote above. that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth...all i am asking is if you police me...you opened the can of worms and you need to catch everyone of those worms. otherwise you are not being fair.

I am only taking that tone because you are being so defiant in threatening to post this document even after being asked not to by the The_Laird.

This really isn't very complicated.

• The_Laird owns the copyrights to his Lynx Prototypes material. These are granted to him automatically the moment he wrote these reviews.
• It is The_Laird's right to choose where and how these reviews are published. If he publishes them for free (as he did on JS2), that does not grant everyone else permission to copy them and post them elsewhere.
• In this case The_Laird has explicitly asked that you NOT publish them on AtariAge, and he has explained his rationale for doing so, even though he does not owe anyone such an explanation.
• If The_Laird does not want his work published on AtariAge, I will stand by his decision and enforce it.

That's all it comes down to, and it is nothing personal against you at all.

..Al

[Crazy Climber]

Cabal for the Lynx? I don't think that would have been very good, I could see 720 working though.

[EricDeLee]

lol...i'd quote you cc...but i have no idea what is really allowed anymore. that was funny though!

[save2600]

The_Laird, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:41 AM, said:

Thankyou Al and Chicky.

I would certainly not welcome anyone copying and pasting my work without my permission. The Lynx Proto guide I wrote took many hours to compile and I was rewarded for it with a JS2 Lifetime VIP status which others had to pay for.

I have already said I would be happy to answer any questions on what I know and I think that is more than generous of me.

Sorry to see good members "fighting" here. I just had a question in regards to the original copyright bit in question. On the other forum, do you specifically state that your work is copyrighted and may not be distributed or 'cut and pasted' elsewhere? Even if it's not officially 'copyrighted', I would think most members would respect the way you feel about reproduction. If there is no verbiage anywhere to be found stating your wishes, then I can see where someone would think it's "public domain", since it *is* out there (especially if there is no repro disclaimer). I haven't seen the original, just wondering if there's been some miscommunication somewhere/somehow.

Edited by save2600, Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:40 PM.