106 replies to this topic

[rmaerz]

I wanted to migrate the discussion from the Walter Day thread over to here because it was getting off topic from the original post...that thread is located here:

http://www.atariage....51#entry1961451

For your convenience, here is the discussion thus far:

save2600, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:53 PM, said:

Cebus Capucinis, on Mon Mar 8, 2010 3:02 PM, said:

Actually at the end of King of Kong didn't the interview with Walter Day sort of allude to that? He didn't outright say it but it seemed he was implying that things would probably change (for the better or worse is up to opinion) as soon as he stepped down. I don't remember completely though so I could be wrong.

After watching the two or three movies, I felt Walter kowtowed to Silly Billy more than maintaining a neutral stance. Wouldn't be surprised if Billy intimidated Day on a level at all and didn't he change the rules to accommodate Billy's DK score too? Yes, yes he did. He allowed Billy to submit a video of his score, whereas Steve Wiebe had to be under the scrutiny of a live "referee" at all times. Not to mention the way he was treated by everyone at Twin Galaxies the first time he submitted a high. Seemed like Weibe really got the shaft with that whole debacle. I dunno... hate to say it, but the concept of "official high scores" in pinball or video gaming seems a little absurd to me and the ego's that go along with it are even more ridiculous. I don't know why! </robin leach voice>

-edit- thanks Rmaerz!

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 PM, said:

save2600, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:53 PM, said:

Cebus Capucinis, on Mon Mar 8, 2010 3:02 PM, said:

Actually at the end of King of Kong didn't the interview with Walter Day sort of allude to that? He didn't outright say it but it seemed he was implying that things would probably change (for the better or worse is up to opinion) as soon as he stepped down. I don't remember completely though so I could be wrong.

After watching the two or three movies, I felt Walter kowtowed to Silly Billy more than maintaining a neutral stance. Wouldn't be surprised if Billy intimidated Day on a level at all and didn't he change the rules to accommodate Billy's DK score too? Yes, yes he did. He allowed Billy to submit a video of his score, whereas Steve Wiebe had to be under the scrutiny of a live "referee" at all times. Not to mention the way he was treated by everyone at Twin Galaxies the first time he submitted a high. Seemed like Weibe really got the shaft with that whole debacle. I dunno... hate to say it, but the concept of "official high scores" in pinball or video gaming seems a little absurd to me and the ego's that go along with it are even more ridiculous. I don't know why! </robin leach voice>

-edit- thanks Rmaerz!

http://forums.twinga...9bcce9315da78e5

Do I believe all of it? unsure but does shed some light on things
as for the Mr.Awesome(Roy Shildt) deal The truth will probably be never known

save2600, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:38 PM, said:

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 PM, said:

http://forums.twinga...9bcce9315da78e5

Do I believe all of it? unsure but does shed some light on things
as for the Mr.Awesome(Roy Shildt) deal The truth will probably be never known

That was really, really interesting. Thanks for posting! Hopefully the bits about Day taking down the score within 48 hours was true - but the damage was done and the movie was already released... which sounds strange that they couldn't have edited in the facts or edited out the poor decision to accept a video taped high score scenario. I remember there being a blurb at the very end of one of the movies about *something* that happened last minute, but I don't think that was it. Still, that segment of the movie should have been totally re-worked. They shat on Steve Wiebe is the bottom line and what a typical political ass-kissing tango it was.

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:40 PM, said:

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 PM, said:

http://forums.twinga...9bcce9315da78e5

Do I believe all of it? unsure but does shed some light on things
as for the Mr.Awesome(Roy Shildt) deal The truth will probably be never known

I didn't read all of Walter's posts yet but I assume you're talking about the board Schildt gave to Wiebe.

I had a 45 minute phone conversation with Mr. Shildt only a week and a half ago. I asked him numerous questions about the King of Kong controversy and the Missile Command score. There wasn't anything shocking or revealing.

I asked about the "gummy substance" on the board and Roy didn't stray from anything he said in King of Kong. He cracked a joke about what it was and I won't repeat it . Basically he felt they were looking for something to be wrong with the board.

As you may know, the board that was used was a Double Donkey Kong board, which Robert Mruczek later stated that they did not know existed at the time of Wiebe's record breaking video tape submission.

Between the King of Kong movie and Chasing Ghosts, Mruczek comments that he knows all these classic games like the back of his hand. If you look at his Twin Galaxies rankings, he has close to 40 pages worth of scores recorded.

But, I asked Shildt and maybe it was a rhetorical question, so what about the gummy substance - what does that mean? If Mruczek knows these games like the back of his hand, why didn't he see something in the video tape that displayed anomalies that would improve Wiebe's score? Shildt responded that the producers of King of Kong wanted to dumb down that whole issue for the audience and not get into technicals of what modifications could have been done to the board.

Maybe so but with that being the focal point of the controversy, they should have had those questions answered.

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:38 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:40 PM, said:

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 PM, said:

http://forums.twinga...9bcce9315da78e5

Do I believe all of it? unsure but does shed some light on things
as for the Mr.Awesome(Roy Shildt) deal The truth will probably be never known

I didn't read all of Walter's posts yet but I assume you're talking about the board Schildt gave to Wiebe.

I read some of Walter's post and skimmed others.

I think a lot of what he says is believable. These guys producing King of Kong will do whatever to sensationalize the story and can manipulate the timing of events, factual omissions etc. cuz they have something to lose otherwise. And they did a good job because it's a great flick.

But, reading Walter's "Restaurant" post: in the movie Steve Sanders is on the phone with Billy Mitchell (paraphrasing) "Oh my God, Steve and Mark just arrived - I don't know how that happened." So, in Walter's post he states that Steve was never treated as if he were uninvited but then how do you explain Sanders' comments to Mitchell on the cell phone upon his arrival?

There's other comments I have about Walter's posts that I'll post later...

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:17 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:38 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:40 PM, said:

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 PM, said:

http://forums.twinga...9bcce9315da78e5

Do I believe all of it? unsure but does shed some light on things
as for the Mr.Awesome(Roy Shildt) deal The truth will probably be never known

I didn't read all of Walter's posts yet but I assume you're talking about the board Schildt gave to Wiebe.

I read some of Walter's post and skimmed others.

I think a lot of what he says is believable. These guys producing King of Kong will do whatever to sensationalize the story and can manipulate the timing of events, factual omissions etc. cuz they have something to lose otherwise. And they did a good job because it's a great flick.

But, reading Walter's "Restaurant" post: in the movie Steve Sanders is on the phone with Billy Mitchell (paraphrasing) "Oh my God, Steve and Mark just arrived - I don't know how that happened." So, in Walter's post he states that Steve was never treated as if he were uninvited but then how do you explain Sanders' comments to Mitchell on the cell phone upon his arrival?

There's other comments I have about Walter's posts that I'll post later...

I have to agree about the restaurant scene as I really feel those comments reinforced that they did not want him at their little gathering (I do not think Walter Day felt that way)

And I think Steve Sanders is a little bit of an ass too He is the one WAY BACK who submitted the 3 Million plus score for Donkey Kong and got busted on it and he has the arrogance to say and act like he did in that scene. I will give him credit tho at the end of the movie he did give kudos to Steve Wiebe

rmaerz, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:03 AM, said:

HatNJ, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:17 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:38 PM, said:

But, reading Walter's "Restaurant" post: in the movie Steve Sanders is on the phone with Billy Mitchell (paraphrasing) "Oh my God, Steve and Mark just arrived - I don't know how that happened." So, in Walter's post he states that Steve was never treated as if he were uninvited but then how do you explain Sanders' comments to Mitchell on the cell phone upon his arrival?

I have to agree about the restaurant scene as I really feel those comments reinforced that they did not want him at their little gathering (I do not think Walter Day felt that way)

And I think Steve Sanders is a little bit of an ass too He is the one WAY BACK who submitted the 3 Million plus score for Donkey Kong and got busted on it and he has the arrogance to say and act like he did in that scene. I will give him credit tho at the end of the movie he did give kudos to Steve Wiebe

First, I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking that I have some kind of inside slant on this whole debacle. I'm just a guy like most of you folks here on AtariAge that have watched King of Kong, Chasing Ghosts and have followed this story through Twin Galaxies et al.

I spoke to Roy Shildt about some of these issues and within the context of this controversy you could say that this was only for a brief period of time. There are a lot of comments he made I wish he would have elaborated on but he said that he is going to send me an email answering my questions in detail. I don't expect this anytime soon as weeks have gone by until I receive email replies or calls returned to me.

I will be meeting Mark Alpiger at the Classic Arcade Gaming (dot com) Tournament next week. The King of Kong topic will have to be a topic initiated by someone else as I'm not going to be like "hi, my name's Rob can you talk about King of Kong?" He may be sick of talking about it but he did mention in an email to me that he did not get paid or even receive a DVD from the producers of King of Kong. He had to go out and buy the DVD. Granted the thing probably costs $15 - $30 but that's just "red."

About Steve Sanders: granted he was a kid when he lied about the Donkey Kong score and he wasn't the only one that lied about their scores when Twin Galaxies was accepting them based on "the honor system." Heck, Todd Rodgers could have lied about his scores that he submitted to Activision if he happened to roll the score. Was it 3,500,000 or 4,500,000 if the screen only reads e.g. 500,000? I couldn't stand that guy when I was a kid because his mug was in every Activisions newsletter on the high score table. That was just jealousy on my part because I wanted to be just as good or better.

To me, Steve Sanders comes off as playing both sides of the fence. He's one of "Billy's disciples" as Wiebe called Brian Kuh. The only side he doesn't take is Roy Shildt's but that may be because he has the support of Billy Mitchell and the other members of that clique.

This is not to say that you can't be friends with both Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe at the same time. But, if you're sitting in Billy's restaurant and when Wiebe walks in you say the things Sanders said to Mitchell over the cell phone it doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about the guy.

Should we move this to another thread?

[brojamfootball]

I read quite a bit of Walter Day's posts on twin galaxies regarding the issue, and while much of it seems believable there are still holes in the story.

I think at least some of the conflicts come from this angle: I believe Walter Day doesn't have quite the animosity towards Steve Weibe that Billy Mitchell has, although Walter obviously caught himself believing in and doing basically anything Billy said until folks called him on it--relating to playing Mitchell's video during Weibe's Funspot record attempt, posting Mitchell's high score before verifying it, etc.

While I believe editing in King of Kong accentuated conflicts between the two record holders/wanters, certain factual details cannot be denied. Most noticeably the cell phone conversation outside Billy's restaurant. Walter Day can insist Steve Weibe was welcome at the luncheon as Walter seems to honestly feel that way. However, statements made in the aforementioned phone conversation obviously speak to the contrary.

Furthermore, Mitchell's lame refusal to play against Weibe, and his arrogant lack of acknowledgement of Weibe's presence at the final record attempt shown in the film cannot be denied. Mitchell could have manned up and said something like "Hey man, I haven't worked on Donkey Kong in years. Give me a year to get my game back up to snuff and I'll play you then." Seems Mitchell's play skills are only at their best in a more private setting I guess.

Weibe attempted to contact Mitchell via phone in a most cordial way as shown in the film, with Mitchell again showing his blatant rudeness and arrogance by not returning the call. Again, he could have made a statement like I mentioned above, or even set up a playoff on his own terms that I'm sure Weibe would have gladly agreed to.

As in the seventies advertising slogan about how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop, the world may never know all the details here. I gotta say, though, that King of Kong was a very enjoyable film and I've been surprised by the number of non-gamers that saw and liked it as much as I did. Chasing ghosts seems to be more of a film for gamers only.

[Cebus Capucinis]

I think what, fundamentally, the whole situation boils down to is that competition can sometimes lead otherwise reasonable people into childish and bad behaviors. I'm not saying that because I'm anti-competition or anything, I just think that's the nature of the beast. When we compete, there is a very great sense of adrenalin in doing our absolute best and knowing that we are in the top of the chosen field. Because that feeling is so good we often will cut ethical corners and do things perceived as wrong to continue having that feeling.

We'll never know all the details of what went on, but honestly, do we really need to? Even if every single detail were known there are going to be "Camp Mitchell" people and "Came Weibe" people (I, personally, am a "Camp Weibe" person, but that's a different story). We associate ourselves subconsciously with individuals and whether we know it or not it is part of human nature to always take sides in anything. It's our inherent competitive instinct.

What can we take from this? Nothing, for the most part. Competition, even in this sense, is going to draw things like this -- it's just part of what competition is at its core. You have to take the "bad" with the "good", and there's no sense pointing fingers and blaming someone when we can all honestly say we've been in situations exactly like the ones portrayed in the film and have acted just as badly. I don't think you can attribute a moral compass to something like competition in that sense.

[rmaerz]

brojamfootball, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:08 AM, said:

While I believe editing in King of Kong accentuated conflicts between the two record holders/wanters, certain factual details cannot be denied.

Yes, those are the words I was looking for in my previous post regarding the fact that Sanders' cell phone call was captured on film.

brojamfootball, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:08 AM, said:

Most noticeably the cell phone conversation outside Billy's restaurant. Walter Day can insist Steve Weibe was welcome at the luncheon as Walter seems to honestly feel that way. However, statements made in the aforementioned phone conversation obviously speak to the contrary.

It seems Day was speaking on behalf of himself and others but certainly not Mitchell and Sanders. He doesn't explicitly say so but Sanders would not have said what was said if everyone welcomed Wiebe to dinner.

Yes, the table was full and Alpiger and Wiebe arrived late so that part is true.

brojamfootball, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:08 AM, said:

Furthermore, Mitchell's lame refusal to play against Weibe, and his arrogant lack of acknowledgement of Weibe's presence at the final record attempt shown in the film cannot be denied. Mitchell could have manned up and said something like "Hey man, I haven't worked on Donkey Kong in years. Give me a year to get my game back up to snuff and I'll play you then." Seems Mitchell's play skills are only at their best in a more private setting I guess.

Walter Day writes that Mitchell and Wiebe had a friendly relationship. But, that relationship turned sour over Wiebe's association with Roy Shildt. I can only guess that with this association Mitchell assumed that Wiebe and Shildt were conspiring to take down his record using a board "with a gummy substance."

Here's some more potential holes in Day's accounts:

So, Wiebe breaks the record in June of 2003.

On August 15, 2004, some gamer who he won't name (yet he and another raise their hands in the movie) is vacationing in the Northwest and decides to meet up with another guy from Washington to investigate Wiebe's machine. More on those events later.

It does not say in Day's post (or I cannot simply find it) what day they exactly visited the Wiebe residence:
http://forums.twinga...3ce7887c3148698

He says in this post
http://forums.twinga...3ce7887c3148698

that on August 20, 2004 Mitchell and Wiebe are rubbing elbows at the CGE 2K4 banquet.

Without knowing the exact date that the gamers visited Wiebe's house, we can only assume that it had to be after CGE 2K4 which would explain why Mitchell and Wiebe were still on good terms. Had it been before the expo, I would guess that these two gamers would have reported their findings to Mruczek while on site in Wiebe's garage. It would only make sense to do so as Mruczek would have had the opportunity to say "hey guys check this and check that." Mruczek was the head referee at the time.

If the visit happened before the expo, I would assume Mitchell demanded to know the results of the visit right away. After all, when Wiebe was at Fun Spot Brian Kuh was giving Billy play by play as Wiebe was racking up the points.

Another thing that has me scratching my head is that Wiebe had the record for 13-1/2 months before they investigated the machine. Mruczek mentions in King of Kong that at times they need to investigate the machine especially when they question (paraphrasing) "why it took so long for someone to break Mitchell's Donkey Kong record."

Wouldn't they have investigated the machine in July of 2003 before accepting Wiebe's record? Mruczek says himself (paraphrasing) "at times we need to investigate the machine." Why did it take over 13 months to do so when there was a gamer in Redmond, WA that could have done the job?


Day then goes on to say:

3. I remember lengthy phone discussions with Conway Ho of Hanaho Games in regards to the borrowing of two of his ArcadePC cabinets to use for the players to play side-by-side.

4. I remember checking in again and again on each player as they played DK, monitoring their progress.

5. I remember that I purposefully did not have the Classic Gaming Expo management co-sign the posters at the end of the event because neither of the players had reached 1 million points -- the goal of the weekend rivalry.

What this means: The two sides don't need to argue over whether or not they competed head-to-head, because that has never been the point that I was trying to make here. The point is that Billy did take steps of friendliness in Steve's direction. He was willing to work it out with Steve. He did play Donkey Kong with Steve. I will testify that Billy arrived willing to play high-score vs. high-score against Steve, but the surprise unavailability of two Donkey Kong machines upset the plan. So, in this emergency, we resorted to an arcade cabinet that had MAME emulation temporarily placed within it to help the two players. Then, as the aforementioned videotape (mentioned above) shows, the two players switched off, playing when they could. And, with other attendees at the event sometimes taking over the machine, it made the interaction between the two increasingly more casual as the weekend progressed. It was this casual appearance that may have caused other videographers to think there was no rivalry in play.

Since both sides of this issue rely on personal recollections, it is important to find a videotaped recording of the proceedings of the Friday Night Banquet. Such a tape will reveal what Walter, Billy and Steve said in their public addresses at the podium that night. The statements they made that night will reveal what the plans were for the weekend.

So, Day procures the ArcadePC cabinets and this is relevant information that the filmmakers decided to exclude from King of Kong: that Wiebe and Mitchell did go head-to-head albeit on a MAME'd version of Donkey Kong.

Edited by rmaerz, Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:49 AM.

[rmaerz]

Cebus Capucinis, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:55 AM, said:

I think what, fundamentally, the whole situation boils down to is that competition can sometimes lead otherwise reasonable people into childish and bad behaviors. I'm not saying that because I'm anti-competition or anything, I just think that's the nature of the beast. When we compete, there is a very great sense of adrenalin in doing our absolute best and knowing that we are in the top of the chosen field. Because that feeling is so good we often will cut ethical corners and do things perceived as wrong to continue having that feeling.

What I forgot to mention as you have seen in the movie is how Mitchell is talking about competitive gaming and head-to-head competition. Those words come back to haunt him with his actions later in the film. On top of that, his wife says he never competed head-to-head!

But, if you take a step back it's like "what are we talking about here?" It's just a video game record.

When I was a kid you talked trash with your friends at the arcade and tried to beat each other's score along with the guy named "ASS" that had the high score. At the same time, you're exchanging strategies on Galaga. It never would have gotten to the levels of Wiebe-Mitchell or Sanders-Mitchell in Ottumwa. But, then again none of us were gaming gods sharing the stage with Fran Tarkenton, John Davidson and Kathi Lee Crosby.

Cebus Capucinis, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:55 AM, said:

We'll never know all the details of what went on, but honestly, do we really need to? Even if every single detail were known t

Oh please no! That would kill this entire thread!

It's an interesting story. Interesting enough for a movie and everything else that has been written about it by those directly involved. It's fun to take everything that was presented in the movie and what has been written afterward and discuss what we think the real truth is.

[Cebus Capucinis]

No, I agree entirely with what you're saying! It's very interesting to be able to step back like that and wonder what's really going on. Your post above is a perfect example, such an amazing read -- have you considered becoming an attorney? It's always fascinating to be able to see what others perspectives are, and I am always a big fan of digging out the truth from things like this.

I just think that no matter what details will be released we will all be interested but on some fundamental level each and every person who takes interest in it will take some sort of side, no matter what the truth is. The film itself is a perfect example that even if the truth is being documented exactly as it happens, our individual experiences and thoughts will always have some sort of filter as to what's going on.

It's also really funny that every single individual that put 'ASS' as high score initials thought he or she (well, we, I did it a lot) was being this singular and amazing example of pomp and wit. Then you'd go to another arcade and see 'ASS' on a machine you didn't play and curse whoever stole your idea! They must have seen YOUR high score, the copycat!

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Who gives a shit? Honestly.

It's more than obvious to anyone who cares to research the situation on any basic level that the 'King of Kong' movie was a heavily edited, biased, and sensationalized depiction of the actual events that transpired. It's strictly an entertainment piece...why people are still analyzing it and trying to draw any kind of factual conclusions based on it is just plain silly. The whole rivalry aspect of the film was sensationalized almost to the point of pure fiction, in the sense that Mitchell wasn't even the world record holder when Wiebe first set a new record...Tim Sczerby was (who's been bumped all the way down to 7th on the list since then).

As I said, what's the difference at this point anyway? Mitchell has since beaten Wiebe's record, and his record in turn has just been eclipsed by someone else. The events that transpired in the movie are ancient history at this point. How long can these silly "I love Steve Wiebe/I hate Billy Mitchell" people continue to flog a dead horse?

[Cebus Capucinis]

PingvinBlueJeans, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:31 PM, said:

Who gives a shit? Honestly.

snip

How long can these silly "I love Steve Wiebe/I hate Billy Mitchell" people continue to flog a dead horse?

I think a lot of people care about it because it's a thought experiment in stereotypes and competition in human nature, ala my first post. I think that people who play video games seem to fall prey very closely to certain egotistical stereotypes about themselves -- the classic example of a video gamer as aloof, uninterested, cool, intelligent, and mature. I think there's an inherent ego in being interested in video games past a certain level -- remember growing up and looking at sports players? You're no dumb jock, you're SMARTER than that! You enjoy intellectual pursuits in video games!

I think when people that fall prey to those stereotypes are faced with the information provided either in or through King of Kong there's an inherent desire to fight against those stereotypes. In the film we see individuals who act no different from any competitive individuals -- strategies, tricks, cut corners, unethical decisions -- even the film itself is a perfect example as you say by using editing and sensationalism to portray events in a single way, yet we can't deal with it on a conscious level. We're smart video gamers, damnit, not our idea of childish competitive "jocks"! Clearly there must be something else going on here, some deeper story!

For the record, no, there isn't, but I think that's why it still garners so much interest. There's this underlying idea of "being different" that we struggle with when shown rather clearly that on the face of it, we aren't any different from individuals that we attach negative connotations to (whether accurate or not).

I think people will always "give a shit" about it, even years from now when it's completely off the public record and eclipsed, which it is close to now already. It's just those strong intuitions pulling us toward it on some fundamental level.

[save2600]

PingvinBlueJeans, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:31 PM, said:

Who gives a shit? Honestly.

It's more than obvious to anyone who cares to research the situation on any basic level that the 'King of Kong' movie was a heavily edited, biased, and sensationalized depiction of the actual events that transpired.

Not edited enough though to show that Walter had changed his mind about accepting Billy's video taped H.S.

Quote

The events that transpired in the movie are ancient history at this point.

Problem is, that it's not "ancient" history yet. The show is entertaining, but it was never meant to be a fictional account chock full of grade school drama - but that's exactly what it turned into. It's a documentary and one that is flawed from a historical sense, because it's inaccurate. If it wasn't literally 'burned' into a DVD or book that generations years later could discover, all of this would be moot. But that's not the case. The video should have been edited to reflect Walter Day's decision to rescind Billy's score BEFORE the DVD was finished. But it wasn't. And why is that? Because the greedy asshats(I say that only because I suspect the M.O. here is to sell more videos) that be, decided it was probably better to leave the video alone with all its gratuitous drama or, and this is probably more likely, the editors/studio or whatever had already been paid and they didn't want to have to go through all the trouble of righting wrongs.


At the end of the day, it's all BS - of course. But again, we're not talking fiction. Real people's names and lifestyles have been affected because of it. I'm sure all of this will be lost to the annals before too many decades pass, but there's still something inside me that thinks everyone involved with the production of this particular video *might* be enjoying the constant attention it will get for years to come. Kind of a short-sighted mans way of feeling immortal, if only just for a little bit. And that sucks because good people were slandered and an entire hobby/phenomenon was knocked down a rung in the eyes of people that are quick to pounce on it in the first place.

Edited by save2600, Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:02 PM.

[rmaerz]

PingvinBlueJeans, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:31 PM, said:

Who gives a shit? Honestly.

Why do you post to threads you don't care about it?

That's a rhetorical question.

If I see a thread that I don't care about I simply don't post anything to it and let the people that want to discuss it do exactly that.

[rmaerz]

save2600, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:53 PM, said:

Quote

The events that transpired in the movie are ancient history at this point.

Problem is, that it's not "ancient" history yet.

You got this guy Hank Chien who just broke the DK record. Steve Wiebe announced the he was working on breaking the Donkey Kong record after setting the record a little over a week ago on Donkey Kong Junior.

So, while it may not be Mitchell vs. Wiebe (yet?) there is still interest in breaking the Donkey Kong record and the history behind it.

Edited by rmaerz, Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:53 PM.

[Tempest]

I'm just jealous that any of these guys can set a world record on an arcade machine. My ADD would never let me concentrate on something that lon... oh look something shiny!

Tempest

[brojamfootball]

Um, people "give a shit" because you're on a site obviously populated by classic video game enthusiasts. Duh.

What's next, go to a NFL fan site and tell them the Super Bowl is "just a game" also?

How about go to a bar and tell everyone there that drinking is a waste of time?

Or maybe cruise down to the nearest gay nightclub and tell the crowd they should "just get over" being gay.

You're on video game lover's turf here. If you think that's dumb then quietly move along.

Jeez.

[Curt Vendel]

Finally got the chance to see "Chasing Ghosts" tonight, King of Kong made for much more interesting video to watch... the whole Billy Mitchell vs. Steve Wiebe saga makes for much more interesting story to watch.

Curt

[Retro Rogue]

save2600, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:53 PM, said:

PingvinBlueJeans, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:31 PM, said:

Who gives a shit? Honestly.

It's more than obvious to anyone who cares to research the situation on any basic level that the 'King of Kong' movie was a heavily edited, biased, and sensationalized depiction of the actual events that transpired.

Not edited enough though to show that Walter had changed his mind about accepting Billy's video taped H.S.

But edited enough to completely screw with the timeline and also make it seem like he wasn't going to the competition to duck out on Steve. First and foremost, they *knew well ahead of time* he couldn't make it. He even accompanied them to the airport to send off (I can't remember her name) that elderly lady gamer. And that's why they specifically left a crew back at his house to interview him after the airport. That's when the single interview occurred that they spliced up to make it look like it was over several days. Same with the tape unveiling, which occurred that same day before the official competition, not during days later in the middle of Steve's run like they tried to make it seem. And Billy hadn't sent it as the de facto final submission (it was of course a low quality copy) , he fully intended to provide the full clear copy for regular analysis after the competition, that was just a teaser. Likewise what Walter left out of his response on the TG thread in an effort to do a "the buck stops here" responsibility thing, the director of the film kept pushing him to go to the computer and put the score up for drama sake because he wanted the footage. I'm q

They also 100% lied when they tried to portray Billy as not publicly competing/playing in 25 years. He set the (then) world public record at our show (Midwest Gaming Classic) in 2004 when he was in, at the very same location we're going to be in this year (in fact it was in the room that will be occupied this year by the Family Game Room).

As far as the Donkey Kong board and needing to go in to Steve's personal machine, they analyzed that because Steve had bought the machine from someone who's known for modding boards.

Like was already mentioned, the film and director had an agenda - and one which he misrepresented (Walter and TG were told it was simply a documentary on gamers while it was being filmed). As Curt mentioned, it is a much more interesting film to watch, and I think that's more what drove the skew.

Edited by wgungfu, Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 PM.

[rmaerz]

wgungfu, on Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 PM, said:

He even accompanied them to the airport to send off (I can't remember her name) that elderly lady gamer.

That would be the late Doris (Q*bert) Self.

wgungfu, on Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 PM, said:

As far as the Donkey Kong board and needing to go in to Steve's personal machine, they analyzed that because Steve had bought the machine from someone who's known for modding boards.

Bought the machine or bought the board? The board was said to be given to him by Roy Shildt.

[rmaerz]

wgungfu, on Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:44 PM, said:

But edited enough to completely screw with the timeline

Which is what is confusing me. Was Steve Wiebe's record that stood for three years the record that was recorded and submitted as shown in the movie? Or, was it for another score that he may have submitted later?

[Retro Rogue]

rmaerz, on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:33 PM, said:

Bought the machine or bought the board? The board was said to be given to him by Roy Shildt.

machine = board. You usually don't worry about people modding a cabinet.

They were analyzing his machine as TG often does for any personally owned machines used for high scores that they themselves have not checked out and made sure is under specification. It was not some underhanded "we're going to do anything we can to disqualify you" thing as the film and it's directors in subsequent interviews tried to portray it. During the process, it was discovered the DK pcb was provided by Roy - who's also known for modding boards. That caused the concern - not because of any "feud" between Billy and Roy.

Edited by wgungfu, Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:20 PM.

[bomberpunk]

Tempest, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:57 PM, said:

I'm just jealous that any of these guys can set a world record on an arcade machine. My ADD would never let me concentrate on something that lon... oh look something shiny!

Tempest

[Curt Vendel]

There is only one person I know of who could honetly and accurately tell the REAL story behind King of Kong - the only problem is he is so passionate about the situation, not only did he quit Twin Galaxies as a ref, but if you bring up this subject to him, I'd be worried he bust every blood vessel in his head being so pissed off about it and probably go on an axe welding rampage on Walter Day.


Curt

bomberpunk, on Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:21 AM, said:

Tempest, on Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:57 PM, said:

I'm just jealous that any of these guys can set a world record on an arcade machine. My ADD would never let me concentrate on something that lon... oh look something shiny!

Tempest

[rmaerz]

wgungfu, on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:20 PM, said:

rmaerz, on Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:33 PM, said:

Bought the machine or bought the board? The board was said to be given to him by Roy Shildt.

machine = board. You usually don't worry about people modding a cabinet.

I just meant from the perspective that other components of the system could have been modded. I'm going to guess that there is only one board in DK but I didn't want to make that assumption.

For example, in Pole Position you have a circuit board for the steering wheel which I would assume could be modded to a sensitivity that is best suited for the player. That's just a guess. And I know you're only talking a joystick and buttons in DK for controls but just for argument's sake...

wgungfu, on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:20 PM, said:

They were analyzing his machine as TG often does for any personally owned machines used for high scores that they themselves have not checked out and made sure is under specification. It was not some underhanded "we're going to do anything we can to disqualify you" thing as the film and it's directors in subsequent interviews tried to portray it. During the process, it was discovered the DK pcb was provided by Roy - who's also known for modding boards. That caused the concern - not because of any "feud" between Billy and Roy.

Despite having found a "gummy substance" on the board, Mruczek should have cited anomalies in scoring/game play that would have proven that the board was tampered with. I do not doubt the man's knowledge of the games for a second. He has the luxury of video replay to cite anomalies which was not done.

Having said that, the score should not have been rejected without a detailed explanation as to the significance of a gummy substance and explicitly defining the scoring anomalies that gave Wiebe an unfair advantage.

[rmaerz]

Curt Vendel, on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:10 AM, said:

There is only one person I know of who could honetly and accurately tell the REAL story behind King of Kong - the only problem is he is so passionate about the situation, not only did he quit Twin Galaxies as a ref, but if you bring up this subject to him, I'd be worried he bust every blood vessel in his head being so pissed off about it and probably go on an axe welding rampage on Walter Day.


Curt

HAHA - I know who you're talking about...

Hey Curt - on another topic do you know Richie Knucklez?

[rmaerz]

rmaerz, on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:20 AM, said:

Despite having found a "gummy substance" on the board, Mruczek should have cited anomalies in scoring/game play that would have proven that the board was tampered with. I do not doubt the man's knowledge of the games for a second. He has the luxury of video replay to cite anomalies which was not done.

Having said that, the score should not have been rejected without a detailed explanation as to the significance of a gummy substance and explicitly defining the scoring anomalies that gave Wiebe an unfair advantage.

Let me restate that...

He may have proven anomalies in the scoring but it was not documented in the film and I have not been able to find anything regarding this in Walter's "official statements."

[atarilovesyou]

If any of the details of King of Kong were fabricated by the directors (timelines, etc) then this film should not be marketed as a 'documentary', but as a "docudrama". Much in the same fashion as "Pumping Iron", starring a young Arnold Schwarzenegger. The two films have a great deal in common, and I find them completely entertaining...and each had its fair share of 'doctoring' the 'facts' to allow for a more entertaining film.

The thing to note is that the top gamer types like Billy Mitchell and his brood of losers is this...that's all they've got to show with their wasted childhoods. The film Chasing Ghosts hammered that home, and then some....I mean, you've got video of Walter Day mailing his friggen referee shirt to the division of video game history in the Smithsonean Institute...a division that doesn't even exist! I mean, I thank every day that I'm not like these people.

But!...they're being talked about by many gamers out there and their scores will be known for decades to come. If that's the price to pay for meaningless notoriety, a footnote in a niche of history, then that's sad.

[Tempest]

atarilovesyou, on Wed May 26, 2010 2:14 PM, said:

I mean, you've got video of Walter Day mailing his friggen referee shirt to the division of video game history in the Smithsonean Institute...a division that doesn't even exist!.

*snicker* Seriously?

Tempest