36 replies to this topic

[flashjazzcat]

Over at Atari Forum, they have a regularly updated thread (which should probably be a sticky) for known-good monitors for the Atari ST. I see many postings here at Atari Age strewn about the forum asking questions about LCD TVs and various modern solutions for A8 and ST displays or explaining the latest and greatest purchase, but it would be nice to marshall all this info into the same topic. While there are apparently a plethora of widescreen LCD TVs out there which do a good job as an A8 display (I have one myself), good quality 4:3 displays are increasingly hard to find. I'm currently using an LG RZ-15LA70 15" PAL LCD TV for the A8s via s-video and VBXE, and for the ST via RGB SCART and VGA in. While it does a grand job with the ST's low and hi-res displays, it occasionally struggles with synchronisation with the 8-bits.

Because I'm in the market for a good PAL 4:3 15 or 17 inch LCD display for the A8, I'm very interested to know which units give the best picture. Since a 4:3 display is likely to be a second-hand purchase nowadays, it would be nice to have some pointers on what to look for.

The minimum requirements for the set are:

• 4:3 LCD display
• s-video, RGB SCART

Desirable features include:

• VGA in
• Excellent picture quality with both VBXE and s-video input
• Ability to display overscan and interlace modes
• The ability to display ST low and hi-res modes
• Good styling

Pictures and tests would be useful too, as would links to modern, readily available 4:3 LCD displays. If there's any interest, I'll start the ball rolling with a summary of the quite versatile LG RZ-15LA70. I think it's fair to say that many of us struggle for desk space, and don't have room for CRT displays or separate screens for all our different vintage computers. I see dozens of 4:3 LCDs on eBay every day. The question is, which of them are already in use with Atari 8-bit computers?

Edited by flashjazzcat, Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:15 AM.

[Rybags]

If a given TV works on the ST, then it'll almost certainly be OK for the 8-bitters.

The ST video signal is even more non-standard than the 8-bit. It's 313 scanlines rather than 312.

Both machines have the non-serrated VSync signals also (missing the extra short return to blanking level at mid-scanline points). I've tested the C=64 and Plus/4 and they both have a serrated VSync.

[flashjazzcat]

Rybags, on Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:39 AM, said:

If a given TV works on the ST, then it'll almost certainly be OK for the 8-bitters.

The ST video signal is even more non-standard than the 8-bit. It's 313 scanlines rather than 312.

Both machines have the non-serrated VSync signals also (missing the extra short return to blanking level at mid-scanline points). I've tested the C=64 and Plus/4 and they both have a serrated VSync.

Well - that's useful to note. When - for example - trawling the shops looking for a compatible 4:3 display, I assume it would be wise to cart an ST with an RGB cable around in a bag rather than an 8-bit.

[Thorsten Günther]

My

Toshiba 15V300

displays ST RGB through the SCART input, ST High (through the VGA input only, and with scaling artifacts) and also A8 (s-)video, and it copes with NTSC through composite and s-video inputs. The picture quality yet is lower than that of the

MEOS DVDM133B

that doesn't qualify though due to the fact that it is a 13" 16:9 DVD combo. This one also displays NTSC through RF in colour, yet without any sound.

Thorsten

[flashjazzcat]

LG RZ-15LA70

• PAL
• 15" 4:3 LCD Display
• Inputs: SCART, s-video, VGA, composite, RF (analogue tuner)
• Atari 8-bit monitor-out (s-video): good
• Atari 8-bit VBXE (SCART): very good
• Atari ST low-res (SCART): excellent
• Atari ST hi-res (VGA): very good
• NTSC display: not known
• 8-bit picture may shimmer if computer turned on after set. Turning on set after Atari has booted up or simply re-selecting the input source cures problem. Good results can also be obtained via adjustments on the TV's service menu.
• Picture is a little "soft" in comparison to some other displays
• Rybags' interlace mode flickers and rolls on this set
• The set is an absolutely rock-solid ST display

Edited by flashjazzcat, Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:27 AM.

[Almost Rice]

I am using a Dell UltraSharp 2001FP. It recognizes PAL but displays my NTSC 130xe with PAL ANTIC in B&W. I will have to check my PAL 600xl to see if it displays correctly. I am currently using it to type this message at 1600x1200. It is a really sharp 20.1" monitor. It has SVGA, DVI-D, Svideo, and composite. It also has a USB hub.

I have found that the higher end monitors can not handle the PAL Antic 130xe because the signal it produces is so odd. cheaper portable DVD screens can handle it, but some are not centered on the screen and they tend to be widescreen. I have the same problem with my Samsung 215TW(16:9).

Edited by Almost Rice, Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:27 PM.

[Jacques]

I recommend LG M1721A-BZ (LCD-TV 17") as it has all that's necessary for retro-computing: VGA, SCART (VBXE works perfectly), composite, s-video and built-in stereo speakers.
I've replaced Samsung 711MP with this LG, because the previous one couldn't display VBXE video correctly.

LG does not have this nice Atari-grey look which Samsung had, but it's quite nice anyway and the styling is more modern:




Only trouble is, that probably it's very hard to get it new nowadays, I bought it second hand.

Edited by Jacques, Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:16 PM.

[Mathy]

Hello guys

The Funai LCD-A1506 is very popular among the German Atari 8 bit meetings scene. It's actually a TV (analog).



It's got:
Antenna In (analog TV signal)
Composite and Stereo In (yellow, red and white plugs)
S-Video In
Headphones in
SCART
and a remote control

SCART has the following pins going somewhere:

1 Audio Out Right
2 Audio In Right
3 Audio Out Left + mono
6 Audio In Left + mono
7 RGB Blue In
11 RGB Green In
15 RGB Red In / Chrominance
19 Composite Video Out
20 Composite Video In
rest is ground

greetings

Mathy

PS My Cinch-cable only has two wires, one for sound one for mono. If I plug the mono jack into the "left" connector, sound is automatically played through both speakers.

PPS from what I can find on the internet, this thing will only do PAL and SECAM, but the service manual mentions NTSC.

Edited by Mathy, Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:15 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

Managed to pick up a Kenmark LCD TV/DVD Combo second-hand today and for me and I am extremely happy with it. I took the 8-bit into Sunderland today and first tried a Cello LCD but the SCART was broken. Lucky for me. At the next shop I enquired about a Mikumi model which I couldn't test (with the VBXE 130XE I'd taken along in a bag) because there was no way to select the input source without the missing remote. That's when I tried the Kenmark. The label on the back says "Model: LVD162", but my (so far unsuccessful) attempts to track down the user manual suggest there's some confusion over the model number, since the 162 is variously reported as a 16:9 screen. However, this may refer to the scaling options: in any case, the screen is 4:3.

No issues with sync or timing, and as a bonus the set displays the ST modes perfectly.



s-video (stock 130XE!):



VBXE (SCART):





Rybags' Interlace (VBXE, no roll and minimal flicker):



ST Low-Res:



ST Hi-Res:



Picture is rock-solid and crystal clear under all circumstances. Haven't tried the XLs yet, but the stock XE signal (with RF box removed but no other mods) looks superb.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:03 PM.

[Almost Rice]

I have checked the Dell and it works great with a PAL composite signal. I am sorry I missed the TV part of the title. I just wanted to let those of us in NTSC land to find a screen that was compatible. We do not have many LCD screen <20" & >10" that are TVs. It seems like this segment of the market are filled with overpriced($100+) and underfeatured TVs usually without stands. They also do not have SCART type connectors. I found as an example.

I picked up the Dell for $70 from craigslist and I was extremely happy how it handled SVGA(1600x1200 native), Svideo and composite imputs. It just happens that the higher end monitors will not recognize a 50Hz signal with NTSC color. I have found that the <10" DVD screen segment can. All my DVD players with screens can do it except some do not center the screens properly.

What prices are these TVs going for?

Edited by Almost Rice, Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:43 PM.

[flashjazzcat]

Almost Rice, on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:32 PM, said:

I have checked the Dell and it works great with a PAL composite signal. I am sorry I missed the TV part of the title. I just wanted to let those of us in NTSC land to find a screen that was compatible. We do not have many LCD screen <20" & >10" that are TVs. It seems like this segment of the market are filled with overpriced($100+) and underfeatured TVs usually without stands. They also do not have SCART type connectors. I found as an example.

I picked up the Dell for $70 from craigslist and I was extremely happy how it handled SVGA(1600x1200 native), Svideo and composite imputs. It just happens that the higher end monitors will not recognize a 50Hz signal with NTSC color. I have found that the <10" DVD screen segment can. All my DVD players with screens can do it except some do not center the screens properly.

What prices are these TVs going for?

The Dell is an unusual beast for a monitor in as much as it has a diverse set of inputs: it almost deserves to be called a TV! I know things are pretty tricky in the US when it comes to RGB SCART. It's a real pity, since it knocks out both VBXE and ST potential (the latter only working in low-res through a select handful of multisync D-SUB monitors).

I absolutely agree with you about the lower-end sets being more flexible. My LG M227WD - while it copes with every computer I own - shows up all the vertical banding of the stock machines and was very fussy about VBXE until I tuned up the sync signal. The smaller, older LG I also have was probably pricey in its day and has a hard time keeping track of 8-bit s-video. Now the Kenmark - which was probably the cheapest of the cheap when it came out a couple of years back - displays a perfect, pin-sharp picture with no vertical banding or grain and locks onto all 8-bit and ST sync signals without breaking a sweat.

The sad thing is that 4:3 LCD TVs are hard to come by nowadays. Even the low-end products are widescreen. While the AR can usually be switched, I have no idea how they'll fare with 8-bit video signals. It's a case of suck it and see: hence all the touring of the second hand stores. Since they're almost impossible to buy new, it's hard to put a price on them, but these 4:3 sets are selling in my area second hand for around 50 GBP.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:49 AM.

[mimo]

Agree with the cheap stuff coping better with the Atari.
I had a cheapo Sense TV from ebuyer, unfortunately it only lasted 18 months but gave a much better picture than the LG WD19 whatever, and it did NTSC.
I know it is not 4:3, but it was a bloody good tv/monitor

oh pictures are showing the TV in 4:3 AR, it's horrible playing Atari in widescreen

[flashjazzcat]

Preppie!!, on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:32 AM, said:

Agree with the cheap stuff coping better with the Atari.
I had a cheapo Sense TV from ebuyer, unfortunately it only lasted 18 months but gave a much better picture than the LG WD19 whatever, and it did NTSC.
I know it is not 4:3, but it was a bloody good tv/monitor

oh pictures are showing the TV in 4:3 AR, it's horrible playing Atari in widescreen

That's a good-looking set. I always thought white would look good. Looks like the Sense 51-19 is next to impossible to find now.

Oh - and the Kenmark actually displays in 16:9 AR on a 4:3 panel. Functionally more-or-less identical but a shame there isn't a 4:3 option...

Edited by flashjazzcat, Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:55 AM.

[mimo]

yep I was looking for a while but gave up

[flashjazzcat]

Any more recommendations here? I've seen a Samsung 710MP in a local shop but no idea if it has the same VBXE problem as the 711MP. I'm assuming it will, but I may test it out. It's 55GBP, however.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:56 AM.

[flashjazzcat]

Well, I've set up the LG 15LC1RB and while the picture isn't quite as good as the Kenmark's, it's proper 4:3 and a nice looking TV for the price:



Pictured here alongside the ST and its flea-market Packard Bell (watched over by Sergei, my wife's Meerkat):



Many thanks to Sub(Function() for helping me reasearch this TV. Both the LG and Kenmark have their good and bad points: the Kenmark scores for clarity and being able to display ST hi-res, while the LG scores on looks.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:02 AM.

[Stephen]

flashjazzcat, on Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:56 AM, said:

Well, I've set up the LG 15LC1RB and while the picture isn't quite as good as the Kenmark's, it's proper 4:3 and a nice looking TV for the price:

15LC1RB.jpg

Pictured here alongside the ST and its flea-market Packard Bell (watched over by Sergei, my wife's Meerkat):

Monitors.jpg

Many thanks to Sub(Function() for helping me reasearch this TV. Both the LG and Kenmark have their good and bad points: the Kenmark scores for clarity and being able to display ST hi-res, while the LG scores on looks.

That's an awesome setup you have there!

[flashjazzcat]

Here's another one. Sometimes you just have to be in the right place at the right time. I was never very happy with the LG 15LC1RB's clarity, and by chance the other night I attended a photographic society meeting with a friend. It just happened to be auction night, and I snagged an LG RZ-15LA32 15" LCD TV for 5 GBP.



VBXE (via SCART):







s-video:





The s-video output from this 130XE was always pretty awful (the usual vertical banding; I didn't mod it because there's a VBXE in there anyway), but this TV makes it look damned good. The RZ-15LA32 gets an unreserved recommendation as a general purpose LCD for PAL Ataris.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Thu Feb 3, 2011 6:14 AM.

[MEtalGuy66]

You need to add to your list of reccomendations/requirements the following:

Does a TRUE 1:1 framerate scan conversion from Svideo input signal.

If it drops any frames, theres a ton of stuff that uses "custom modes" that wont look right.

[flashjazzcat]

MEtalGuy66, on Thu Feb 3, 2011 3:15 PM, said:

You need to add to your list of reccomendations/requirements the following:

Does a TRUE 1:1 framerate scan conversion from Svideo input signal.

If it drops any frames, theres a ton of stuff that uses "custom modes" that wont look right.

Agreed. I haven't even tried interlacing stuff yet. It's wrong to make a blanket recommendation until we see how it behaves with custom modes.

EDIT: Rybags' Falcon and MemoPad display well with a nice steady picture and no rolling.





The only quirk is some stray lines at the bottom right corner of an interlaced display (visible on the MemoPad picture). This is present using both RGB and s-video input sources.

This set's VGA input won't properly phase lock onto the Atari ST's mono output, but that's no real loss.

Edited by flashjazzcat, Thu Feb 3, 2011 4:06 PM.

[MEtalGuy66]

Try it with COLRVIEW.. If it does that well, I'd say it will work with anything.. (except a lightgun heheh.)

Just because it averages the two interlaced components of an NTSC signal well, doesnt mean it never drops a "frame"..

remember the NTSC signal is 60fps interlaced. But, as far as the atari is concerned, in software, it's 30fps.

[w1k]

today i order this 8 LCD TV:
http://www.dealextre...47-870mhz-55245

[spookt]

w1k, on Wed Jun 1, 2011 4:24 AM, said:

today i order this 8 LCD TV:
http://www.dealextre...47-870mhz-55245

Hmm looks interesting. Let us know what it's like when it arrives.

[w1k]

some word is written in igis blog (slovak)
http://blog.3b2.sk/i...-for-ATARI.aspx

[w1k]

TV arrived, its very nice, good screen:


normally this lcd cost 50e.. i found one slovak eshop where this lcd cost 110e.. rofl

Edited by w1k, Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:39 AM.